Class Balance Examination

From the Developer's Corner: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The EverQuest development team continues the process of evaluating class roles, class definitions, and class desirability to ensure that each class provides value in group and raid situations. Moreover, we have found that the term "class balance" is a term that means many different things to different people and we believe that it's more accurate to define our goal in another way. We believe at its core, each class should be fun and have a desirable role in raid and group situations and it is to this standard that we will hold our evaluations as EQ continues to grow and evolve. We have begun the process by looking into group roles. We plan to take a look at raid roles after we have finished with groups. We are looking at what each class has to offer in a group setting, how useful and viable that role is and finally, how well they perform these duties. The team is currently reviewing extensive data from live servers to make sure that the conclusions we make are as accurate as possible. Once we have data that we can share, we will ask for your input and insight on our conclusions. Our goal is to identify the underlying reasons behind any problems we uncover and we may find it necessary to make fundamental changes to the game to address them. As we move forward with this process, we will keep the community apprised of our findings and gather their input on the changes we feel need to be made to make players of all classes in EverQuest feel useful as they fulfill roles that are interesting and fun to play. We would like you to be part of these discussions and help us to determine the shape of classes in EverQuest's future. Thank you for you time and for being a part of this wonderful world that is Norrath. As an initial step in this process, while we are gathering data, we're going to host a live chat between players and the developers to begin this discussion. We will announce the time and date for the chat in the next few days. The EverQuest Team. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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Guilds
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
Heya guys. Very good post about all the Class's. I personally havent played them all enough to comment but the ones i have played i can totally agree.
RE: Guilds
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
Sheesh pressed the wrong button Sorry...... What i wanted to ask was What are all the Guild's doing now everyone has buggered off to WOW and EQ2. Im in Australia and find it hard at the best of to find a group until late at night when the Yank's wake up and start logging on.One of the posts below has said he has finnaly quit after 5 years on EQ. I feel the same but know that WOW would probably only last a few months and id be right back here. I still play P/side a fair bit but EQ just has that pull. Any hows if anyone knows of a good Guild on Karana please let me know.

Buddabing 66 Necro (currently on StormBORINGhammer )
RE: Guilds
# Jan 07 2005 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
**
642 posts
/derail

Chromi,

I know you're asking about Karana server, but would you consider Quellious? I ask b/c of a post beastlords.org.

Here's the link to the post, hope it helps some and Good Luck. =)

Beastlords.org

Edited, Fri Jan 7 13:12:50 2005
BER and MAG
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
I'll start playing my BER again if it was worth it. Most raiding guilds have no use for one. As for my MAG what could improve? Mana regen is my biggest issue. I would explain but you would think a 70 MAG with 8k+ mana pool with FT20 wouldn't have a problem but I do.
Soloing
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
How about a better ability for all classes to solo and gain experience. My rogue is high enough to do great DPS in a group, but cannot really solo at all if there are no groups available.
Shenanigans
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:19 AM Rating: Default
Its just talk to encourage people to play again. If anything of any significance happens you can call me a mage or something equally insulting. They did this with the class wish list that is still "under review" Sony you want to balance classes look at the information you got pre oow when you said the same thing. Until then its just hot air. And no I am not playing WoW and just trying to bash EQ I just know how Sony works after all these years.


Scrummy 70 Wizard Luclin.
Druids
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
Hey guys.... I don't hear many Druids posting on here so I'll take a shot and see what happens. Personally, I am happy with my Druid. During this past summer of 2004 I was level 20 and about 6 weeks later I was level 51 with my epic, and my wisdom was 35 points over the cap. I can sometimes solo/quad-kite,but on the other hand I am usually very useful in groups, sometimes even the main healer. If you were to ask me, I'd say Druids work fine how they are. One thing though, maybe add a charm-animal that you can get after level 30 or so that isn't Dire Charm and also maybe a stronger little bear pet. ;) They are cool, heck, if you don't make a better pet at least make them bigger. :P Thats just me though. Well hope this was useful to someone. Peace I'm out.
RE: Druids
# Jan 07 2005 at 5:42 AM Rating: Decent
Druids are not fine in groups, for MH though we can do so, we do it at the cost of groupdowntime most of the time unless you have a chanty/bard combo to replenish your mana fast enough. We are by definition not healertypes though in game we often turn to such a role but we are the wielders of the forces of mother nature and we should use nature more frequent. I think of blinding in such a way that hitrates drop by 30pct. Raid to corrode the armor of mobs (lowers mobs agi and damage migitation as well as their AC) Summon more animals that can do nasty things like scorpions snakes that do poison based dots with additional effects (maybe 6 or 12 second paralysis) Druids should get an ability to block or reverse a summon to save the shammy/cleric/chanter. Insta summon summon player back and not summable for 18 or 24 seconds with an appropiate reuse time cause it's pretty powerfull. Horde of wolves, summon a pack of wolves that are low in lvl and damag but do enormous taunting for themselves so that they get hit and die instead of groupmembers without messing up the normal hatelist. Popping trees, summon a barrier of trees to keep the mob away from the caster/range group (but also closes most melee/tanks in so that an add is an increased danger Could be done as an AE root that includes players in that area while new mobs wander around it if there is room for such). A player targeted lower hate spell to save that chanter/shammy that slowed and got resisted twice (though effectively it should be in the range of a chanter)

Plenty to add for druids to make them more demanded for groups. Where it concerns our solo abilities, they should remain what they are, but we should have more visible groupbenefits than what we have now. Cause nobody notices the difference a mob is beating 2 pct less hard or gets beaten 2 pct harder. But a message saying mob X tries to hit you but misses due to blindness or MobX ignores you and starts beating the wolves gets noticed. (same for somebody who gets summoned and then gets summoned back again)
Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
36 posts
Bard: Needs no improvement - hardest class to play well, most versatile, and has a ton of capabilities when in experienced hands. Much to offer to groups and raids, and strong as a soloist. Needs no nerfage either, except perhaps its power leveling capabilities - bards are way too good at PLing - my bard just PL'd a cleric to level 48 in 11 hours /played - I suggest a nerf to PLing abilities. Aside from being conceptually stupid (musicians that have songs that kill things and like wearing plate armor and run really fast - pfft - who thought that up?!), it's a great class.

Beastlord: This is a well balanced hybrid class - has unique stackable mana regen, gimp shammy buffs, good DPS, can slow (a little too well), AE regen (paragon) and even tank for short bursts if necessary. No improvements needed.

Berzerker: This class plain sucks. They function mainly as a nerfed rogue - lower DPS and no SoS. Sure they can snare, but come on - let's see something creative added that makes them desirable.

Cleric: Overpowered healer. Should be nerfed so that groups don't feel as though they require a cleric to function, so that guilds don't require a minimum number of clerics to raid. I would like to see clerics' healing abilities reduced and other abilities enhanced. Make them more engaging and challenging to play, and less required for success as a group.

Druid: OK healer, OK DPS, can snare, and have a few good buffs. Groups and raids often use druids as surrogate clerics when clerics are not available. They are not a highly desirable class though. However, they are better soloists than most, which makes up for it. I think druids are more underrated than underpowered, and they don't need much now that they have a gimp rez (good improvement!). Perhaps give them the ability to occasionally drop aggro (AA with a moderate reuse timer - like an hour or something) so that they can do what necros do - drop aggro when a wipe is in progress and rez the cleric or pally.

Enchanter: Excellent raid class - no help needed here, just in groups. In groups, chanters are amazing in cases where cc is needed (like when a pally is pulling or on dungeon crawls) and where charmed pets are useful (Tipt / Vxed), but mostly useless in cases outside of that. I never look for chanters for groups, since my main is a bard, I pull singles all day, and the chanter just sits around doing 70 DPS and casting the occasional buff. Chanters need to be made more useful in groups. This can be done 2 ways - decrease their buff duration so that they have to be around to recast them and / or increase their spell DPS and their conjured pet DPS.

Magician: CoTH, mod rods, and great DPS make mages really essential at raids and they need no improvement here. They could use something to give them a bit of an advantage in groups though, as they are not a particularly desirable class - perhaps a gimp mez or a group mind buff or haste or something. Also, at high levels with new content, they are really gimp as soloists and this needs to be improved. Make high level pets better tanks.

Monk: They are a good DPS class - dropping aggro at will and self heal via mend make them very low maintenance. As pullers, they are lacking compared to bards and need some improvements. Give them the ability to drop aggro faster (FD takes too long for aggro to reset), to run faster, and to split one mob out of a crowd and they would be back in business. I would suggest an AA like fading memories with a long reuse timer (like 20 mins or something), a self only run speed buff that is +1.3ish (cheetah like) to make them faster than GoD / OOW mobs, and a root, snare, or short mez to help them to split the big groups.

Necromancer: This is the only class that I truly envy. FD, rez, pumping mana, great DPS, and unquestionably the best soloists - need we say more? Their solo abilities need a nerf - they are way too good at this (ever watch one at the tables in PoFire?!). Also, make DoT damage explicit (optionally) so that group members can see what they add if they want to. It looks like they are just sitting there doing nothing in groups and at raids. I love necro recovery abilities - rarely a wipe with a good necro around.

Paladin: Bump up their DPS a tad - it's OK that they suck at this, but they suck a little too badly. Aside from that, they are a well-balanced hybrid class in groups and for raids. Rez, stuns, BSS, and group heals make them a superb defensive tank. They can also solo content that is a little below their level quite effectively, which allows them to farm goodies adequately as soloists. They are also too gear dependent and there is too much variance in capability between raid geared and non-raid geared Pallies.

Ranger: Good at high levels, but need improvement at lower levels to balance with other classes. Low level rangers have no useful skills other than snare, track, and improved camo - their buffs are weak, archery is a joke, melee DPS is nothing special, and tanking abilities are mediocre. They are a have not class at low levels. This can be improved by beefing up low level archery in a big way and making ammo more readily available. Also, adding a solid beneficial buff at lower levels would make them more desirable in groups. High level rangers are fine - they are great on raids and in groups. Melee and ranged DPS are both solid, the attack buffs are sweet, and they can function as crowd control with snare and root if necessary. They also make good temporary tanks - they can grab aggro and hold it and use WS if in a bind.

Rogue: Overpowered DPS class with unique special skills. Rogues consistently outdamage other classes in groups by a large margin. They are really easy to play - just get behind the mob and hit attack. I don't mind seeing them do lots of DPS, but at least make it challenging. How about nerfing their melee DPS but increasing their poison abilities so that they have to twist in poisons skillfully to do sick DPS? Aside from that, they are great - SoS, the ability to drop aggro, and pick the locks in Chardok (lol) make them pretty useful. I always look for rogues first when filling DPS spots in groups (which is good for rogues, bad for other DPS classes).

Shadow Knight: They are pretty cool, but a little imbalanced atm. Their pets are too gimp to be of much use, taps are not that great, and FD is too unreliable. They need some enhancements to their hybrid abilities - there are great ideas here, they just need to be made more powerful to scale up to the current content. They are also too gear dependent and there is too much variance in capability between raid geared and non-raid geared SKs.

Shaman: This class rocks at raids, in groups, and as a soloist. I don't think they need any help. Perhaps make DoT spells show DoT damage (optionally) so that group members can see the solid DPS they add - make their DPS value more explicit. I hate that they can rez - as if they needed that ability added! It's just one more thing for shammies to brag about - hehe.

Wizard: Being a long time DPS parser, I have concluded that wizards suck in groups. For example, in MPG groups, the average sustained wizard DPS (130ish) is half the average rogue DPS (260ish). I have seen a high variance due to player expertise - some do almost 200DPS sustained in groups (which still sux for a DPS class) while others do less than 100DPS. They can do solid raid DPS on important mobs since they shine on long fights where there is time to build aggro and to get off the DD spells, and to med between fights. Wizards definitely need to be enhanced to be able to get off more spells in groups without dying and without running out of mana so that their sustainable DPS is up there with other DPS classes. Perhaps add a set of low cost short cast time low aggro nukes that can balance them better. The aggro / damage ratio should be less than that of melee classes since the cost of drawing aggro is higher (mobs run to them and wizards die faster). Aside from that, wizards are pretty solid - they can snare if needed, evac and transportation rock, and AE capabilities are superb.

Warrior: End game warriors rock, but up and coming ones are the ultimate have-nots of the EQ classes. They can't hold aggro, they are too gear dependent and are often worse tanks than other group members, their DPS sucks, and they have no unique abilities. Also, they can't participate in groups in high level zones unless they are high end raid geared (while other classes can). We need to see some better balance at low levels - bump up their aggro abilities and HPs - make them a little less gear dependent and more skill oriented.

Cheers,
-Az
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
QUOTE
"Cleric: Overpower Healer Should be Nerfed so that guilds do not require a minimum number for raids." You also say you would like to see the Cleric healing abilitys reduced and other abilitys enhanced. Make them more of a challenge (Toss em a bone so you dont look to negative) and basically make it so you dont need a cleric for a group to succeed.


To sum up your thoughts you want to take away the main ability of the cleric and turn them into some sort of pally. Why ?

I am sorry Clerics are powerful Healers and it makes you angry that your Druid cannot handle the heavy duty mobs. Maybe we should just give your Druid a H.o.T but make it much better then both a Cleric and a Shaman? We could do this when we give you your Necro like ability to drop agro. Should go nice with your "gimp res."

Why would you want to have a nerfed Cleric in any group even with " Other abilitys enhanced." ? WHY would you want when you have Druids and Shamans who can do so much more ?

Look healing is fun right now for a cleric. OoW groups are a blast and finally give a good cleric a Thrill. I have seen Shamans that can cast epic group H.o.T's , Res on the spot , and kick out crit heals on the spot that shame most clerics without 300+ AA's. Infact I have seen shamans heal groups in zones like WoS, MPG, RCoD without a Cleric.

Now I ask you again ( and I know you play a druid ) WHY would you ever want a Cleric in a group if you NERF THEM ?? I do not want " Other enhanced abilitys." You post just smacks of another crybaby druid whining.

You show your crybaby druid colors when you say SHAMANS: " I hate they can res - as if they needed that ability added. Just one more thing for shammies to brag about."

Aaaw how sad for you they can gimp res like your drood :( boo hoo.

Guess what they can heal better then your drood and I would rather have a SLOWER / BACK UP healer then a crybaby / semi ok healer / whiner / cleric hater like yourself any time.

LAME POST !
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
LAME POST INDEED !

Haha your so right. That guy has druid written all over that post. One of his guild clerics pissed him off and now he has a hard on for the class.

Overpowerd Healers Please give me a break. Thats like saying Warriors need to have melee skills nerfed or Wizards need to have Nukes nerfed. Why because they are the best at what they do and the druid is jealous. What a joke LAME POST INDEED.

Most clerics do not even use the kick *** heals. He just needs to find a guild where level 70 clerics refuse to use anything but a level 39 heal. Believe me 90% are like that and have no concept of using anything but CH. Then our little tree hugger friend can spot heal all he wants :)
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 07 2005 at 6:15 AM Rating: Excellent
No he is right the Cleric is overpowered in it's heal ability compared to other classes. So you either nerf down the cleric or bring the druid/shammy a bit more up, or do half of both, or you give them something extra that makes up for the difference. In my idea the druid holds the powers of nature and should be more used for that, rather than being an alternative for a cleric though on the other hand i already see so many groups looking for a cleric for that last groupspot cause other classes have too much of a gap with the clerical heals.

Currently you need a slower/cleric combo to do most places, but what if a slower/druid combo could reduce the damage taken even further so that those heals can match up with the taken damage? In that case slower/cleric/druid would also go along nicely. In another post i have mentioned the ability to undo summons and protection from them for x seconds, wouldn't such be nice if the cleric didn't have to chainch (and thus summoned)cause the slowers are getting resisted all the time?

Currently i think it's fair to say that the cleric has a too big advantage over any replacement class and that has to be covered by either nerfing clerics down (wich is not so good) or giving something to the other classes to be able to replace the cleric better than they can now, wich in my opinion is a better solution.

RE: Class Balance
# Jan 07 2005 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
36 posts
The problem is exactly what Sen said - that groups and raids feel that they NEED clerics to work effectively. This suggests that there is a serious class imbalance.

Groups: The most common group make up is "tank, slower, puller, CLERIC, and DPS". Not healer - cleric. Only when no clerics are available do people invite druids or shammies to heal.

Raids: Guilds will not raid without a sufficient number of clerics, and this number is way out of balance with other classes. I remember trying to ramp up a guild for PoP and we were always having the problem that we didn't have enough clerics - with any other class, we found ways of compensating for having less. Additionally, we (and other guilds) would accept clerics that were TOTALLY gimp and way below our level of progression because they were that necessary - we didn't do this for any other class.

Clerics are also boring to play. They are the highest turnover class in EQ guilds - more leave, quit, etc. due to competition and burnout.

I am not suggesting to make them into pallies, but rather to balance the healer classes and to make the cleric a more interesting class to play. This can be done by nerfing the cleric's healing abilities and beefing up other abilities so that they can still do their job, but that they have to be more engaged to do so. It can also work by beefing up the shammy / druid so that their healing abilities approach that of the cleric.

BTW: I box 2 mains atm - a bard (level 70) and cleric (in tow at all times). My former main is a chanter. I have also played an end game pally and a ranger quite a bit. I have never played a druid - hehe.

Cheers,
-S


Edited, Fri Jan 7 14:45:30 2005
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
I have played a Necro and a Ranger. My Necro was just to see how well they solo because finding someone willing to take a Ranger in the mid 50's is close to impossible. The only time I play the Necro is when I cant find a group for my ranger. Lately that has been quite often. I think Rangers are a great class and have had one as my main for 2 years. The guilds I have belonged to were not exceptional, mainly people who were good friends and wanted the company. On raids it would take like 3 hours to get going and all buffs were gone by then and the people weren't that good of players to begin with. The only thing I would like to see with Rangers are a higher level panic animal spell for soloing and I think an AE spell for snaring or rooting at high levels would be sweet. When I was in the 20 - 40 level range I would always start my own group and would usually be the main tank. Had good gear from a lot of farming. After hitting around 50+ being a tank is not really an option anymore. Not really that big a deal, but makes finding groups that much harder. The mobs in the PoP just hit for too damn much to be an effective tank. My ac is nowhere near a Warrior, Pally, or SK and my hp just cant take 300 - 500 per hit. I think haveing another discipline would be great as well. Having only four, two of which I never use and the other two have 65 minute refresh, justs sucks. Dont have any idea what it should be but a melee dps boost discipline would be nice. I agree with Neebat, things are g=fast and furious, especially at higher lvls. Any adds and your done if you get the aggro. I have 5.1K hp with Virtue at lvl 61 but mobs in the PoP hit for 500 max. Thats 10% hp gone on one hit. A dex buff spell would be good to for hielping with bow damage. Sony claims that Rangers are melee class formost and ranged attackers second. The reason I became a Ranger in the first place was because of the bows and myth of Rangers. Dealing damage from afar is our heritage, even our class name exemplifies this. We are Rangers, killing from a long range is what we do. That is once you hit 60+ otherwise our arrow hits are like mosguito bites to most mobs. Anyway just a few thoughts on Rangers.
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
I play a necro, I can solo for the most part. But finding a group is almost impossible. So, Im forced to solo. Our snare, although I like it, does get resisted ALOT. With the mobs in OoW and even GoD, that run faster than Sow and such..if a snare fails, i die. I really dont know of other classes since i havent played very many, and none up to any lvl that counts. But, if anything needs to be changed on a necro, they might need a spell that decreases aggro from Dots or a few faster working DoTs to help out in group situations. They dont have to be hard hitting DoTs, but just work a little bit faster. One, more thing...a few more undead areas would be nice, along with an undead paci that actually works past lvl 45.
Rangers rock
# Jan 06 2005 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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70 posts
They specificly said class fixes will be based on how much fun the class is. That means those who are not enjoying the game will demand fixes.

There's a reason most classes gain thier class-defining abilities in the 20's. Look for complaints from any player who has become accustomed to one mode of play and finds it obselete.

I play a ranger most of the time. I tend to disagree with most things said about rangers. At my level, there's too much variety for a ranger to ever get bored. Here's what I do, as a ranger, in the upper-50's:

1. Solo/Duo - fear kiting works in several zones. (I don't want to lose this, so I may focus on AA till they give us a new Fear that works on higher level exp mobs.) Bow kiting doesn't work as well as advertised, but it is an option. Since I usually run with a rogue partner, anything that keeps the agro on me while I don't get hit means certain death to the enemy.

2. Mad DPS - Mildly effective dots, epic haste and high DPS weapons. Usually I have 3 damage procs on my melee weapons, two more on my bow, and an anti-agro or damage spell proc. (Yes, I've had all 6 go off in one fight.) I can't claim to out-damage a similarly equipped rogue, but I'm in that ball park. I can choose whether I want agro or not based on the weapons and proc spells I keep up, and how often I jolt.

3. Tank - Don't laugh. My ranger has done several successful groups and LDoNs as main tank. (Seems to be a shortage of tanks in the 50's on Saryrn.) I've paid a lot of attention to hitpoints and AC, got my AGI up and built in as much regen as I can. With a shaman for slows and a cleric for heals, I can take some serious damage. (I've had clerics get by with just Celestial Healing.) My DS is better than anyone else tanking and I rarely ever lose agro when I'm trying. (Snare, snare again)

4. Prevent adds - Snare saves lives and I just have to mention it because other heavy DPS classes don't have it. Besides, I can pull with harmony unless undergroup, invis myself to scout for pulls and off-tank fast even when I'm not the group's tank.

5. Heal - Ok, you can laugh, but I've done it. I've had a cleric drop connection after the rest of the group zoned into an LDoN. With necro as primary healer and me as secondary, we succeeded anyway. Chloro on anyone getting hit and occasionaly GHeals.

6. Slow - Well, I can't, but only because I can't get a group together to kill some boss mobs in PoHate.

Often the game for a ranger is fast and furious, live or die in under a minute. Other times it's frantically fear-juggling the mob I'm kiting and 3 or 4 adds. That's fun. Scary fun.

I am a bit concerned about classes not getting upgrades to tried and true spells. A lot of paladins enjoy pulling, including me, and now I hear that I'll lose that ability just by leveling up. I already know a ranger loses the ability to fear kite when Panic Animal stops working, because there is no upgrade. What's next, wizards who can't port?

Oh wait, my wizard cries every time someone offers 200pp for a port to WoS. I spent a lot of time getting to where every punt and port in the game is open to me, then they added fast travel so only a handful of zones require transport. Now I can't even do those without climbing on the leveling treadmill again. :-(

As for wizards being ineffective in a group, I tend to agree. My wizard is fun and exciting solo, but if I'm grouping, I switch to a class that can take the hits. Holding fire because you're about to get agro may be strategic, but it's not fun for me.

Besides wizard, paladin and ranger, I play a cleric. The fun of being a cleric in group is more brief than this description.

--
Togolas, the multitalented 58 ranger
56th level paladin, cleric, wizard

I don't need no stinkin end-game. The middle's the thing. You can't win no how.
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
I totaly agree with

Quote:
Druid: OK healer, OK DPS, can snare, and have a few good buffs. Groups and raids often use druids as surrogate clerics when clerics are not available. They are not a highly desirable class though. However, they are better soloists than most, which makes up for it. I think druids are more underrated than underpowered, and they don't need much now that they have a gimp rez (good improvement!). Perhaps give them the ability to occasionally drop aggro (AA with a moderate reuse timer - like an hour or something) so that they can do what necros do - drop aggro when a wipe is in progress and rez the cleric or pally
I forgot to add the rez in my post. Prolly because I can't use it yet, but oh well heheh.
RE: Class Balance
# Jan 06 2005 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
"Perhaps give them the ability to occasionally drop aggro (AA with a moderate reuse timer - like an hour or something) so that they can do what necros do - drop aggro when a wipe is in progress and rez the cleric or pally"...

Wtf? Hi, I'm a druid. I like the fact that I can now rez, but I also want to drop aggro and feign death so that I can be a necromancer. While your at it, could you beef up my bear so he can tank and give me the mana transfer spells that a necro has? Thanks!

... And at that point, the necro will go on soloing. Necro solo power should not be "nerfed" unless they raise the necessity of them in groups. As is, the longest I stayed logged on and lfg was 6 hours. During that time I was soloing. Take away soloing, and I'll just have another bazaar bot!

Azeryen 67 necromancer (retired)
Mithaniel Marr
Ancient Legacy


Edited, Thu Jan 6 19:54:29 2005
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 9:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Who is our class liason? IMO they sure aren't doing their job. look at our OOW spells, yet again more of the same useless crap. Why bother giving us marks and hps buffs when by that level you can get way better from druids/clerics/shamans? Give us an update to the haste we got at level 49 for example. Make it easier for us to get our OOW Tier 1 armour. Do anything at all! BTW Blade of Disruption was teh first good thing SOE has done for pallies since the beginning. Thanks for that.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 10:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) My idea is QUIT this waste of a game. I finally decided to call it quits after 5 years. I switched to WoW and finally someone has developed a game with everyone in mind. No waiting and begging for a group, Constant action, No need for an Uber Guild, and No need for ungodly amounts of cash for the good Loot. Why complain about this or that it isn't worth it Sony isn't going to do anything to Help the players they are going to keep the paying customers in the game as long as possible by stringing them along saying they will do this or that but in the end it will be just like every other patch/Nerf ie. the old Improved Dire Charm Nerf. ***** Sony!! Lifes better in the Blizzard world.
Necro fix?
# Jan 06 2005 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
You want to fix Necros? Give us a new PUMP damnit. The rest we will take care of, we can do alot on a group or raid or solo, just need to know your class, but we Aare LACKING a new PUMP. You can get rid of the fixed duration invis vs undead on others, since sony seems to have forgotten to add content in the high end that our undead spells work on. Well they added a smattering of undead but there are no "all undead" zones anymore are there. Rather than ask you to add new zones, i'll ask you to just give us a new pump please.

Hadesborne Soulsifter
70 Deathspeaker
Saryrn
The War Council
RE: Necro fix?
# Jan 06 2005 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
word. a new pump is loooong overdue
Fix Me!! heheh
# Jan 06 2005 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
I wonder which class is going to stand next to the PoTraq or Nexus stone in PoK, screaming "Fix Me!!" this time? Any bets? I say the rangers!!! =D

Maxium Duelblade
RE: Fix Me!! heheh
# Jan 06 2005 at 9:31 AM Rating: Default
As a warrior, you are well accustomed to shutting your brain down and swinging with both arms (and whining like a 2yr old when you can’t hold agro). Your post supports my belief.

As a Ranger, we tend mostly to be a very proud group. I’ve rarely (only 3 come to mind) seen Rangers complain in the 2yrs that I’ve been playing. We knowingly selected a hybrid class and we fully expect to be a ‘jack-of-all-trades’. With that huge flexibility comes the knowledge that we will never be the best in any of them.

I’ve always been proud to be a Ranger. I’m proud right now and I’ll always be proud to be one.
RE: Fix Me!! heheh
# Jan 06 2005 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
Seems to me since EQ2 and WoW came out there's been a serious lack of groupable players at least on our server unless you have a group with your guildies. What good does it do to stand and scream "Fix Me First" at this time if you're going to be hopping toons sitting for a couple of hours looking for a group. Instead of looking for ways to nerf the classes to blend better together as a group, which some of us don't want to do anyway, how about working on something for the solo's out there. Given the right people who know the strengths and weaknesses of their classes any combination can work well. But again unless you're going to group with the same people all the time how often is it going to happen that you get that magic combination where it all falls into place and you know what each other are going to do before you do it
Pallies
# Jan 06 2005 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
21 posts
I think the main thing I would like is to get the ability to pacify back. I think the last paci spell we get is at 51. I am not in a big guild and in a different timezone so rely mainly on pickup groups. I used to be able to pull nicely in an LDoN but now its the room or nothing, well room-1 for root pulling. Just seems wrong that an ability I had at lower levels is now denied at higher levels and some groups seem to think your a bad player as they assume a pally can pacify.
:/
# Jan 06 2005 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
Hmmm......This may be a good thing....If they actually listen to the feedback from class representatives.
Suggestion
# Jan 06 2005 at 5:23 AM Rating: Default
I would like to see more interesting quests, where the value gained from doing said quest results in enjoyment of the game, rather than long hours of camping and killing useless mobs.

If I may even venture ... a *complete* overhaul of the game itself? Allowing any toon to play any class is something that might appeal to some people ... a DE Shaman for example. The players than have to deal with the race limitations placed upon the race or class.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 3:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I for one am happy to see this. Although I think the Shadow Knight is a fully functional character that needs little to no improvement, it seems that the non-guilded player could have some issues trying to find groups in the higher levels. I, for one, fit into this catagory. I've been on the same toon for 4 years and 90% of that time has been unguilded. Trying to find an OOW group outside of WOS isn't going to happen - mainly because I don't have the hp/ac that comes with high end raid items.(before you flame me, I know I could LDON, etc. for elemental type gear - but have you tried to find an LDON post level 65? It's like trying to pick at the 'good' meat between Halfling toes - nye impossible.) This doesn't bother me, but perhaps with some 'good nerfs' the casual player could bring more to the table instead of just hp/ac. Some suggestions for the SK class? I don't know, I haven't really thought about it... I think some different disc's is a great place to start. If the Shadow Knight is truely to be a knight, why shouldn't we have some sort of defensive discs? As one of the three main meat sheilds in the game, Warriors, Pallies, and SK's, it ought to be a shared deal between us all. Sure, the warriors should be better, but some sort of love for the SK and Pally would be great. (don't worry, even if this were to happen -- the Paladins would still whine and moan, it's what they do best.) As for spells, I'm totally satisfied with the way they are. We have DD, DoT, FD, and we can regen mana. Any adjustments to them for the better is a welcomed addition, but not a necessity. AA's? Again, I like the AA's. Unfortunatly, unless you have 500 or so, you're still just a 2nd or 3rd rate warrior. Perhaps some adjustment to the cost of certain AA's is in the near future? That'd be grand. Alright, I'm done. I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes - it'll be entertaining to troll the boards and make fun of you idiots that will complain. (Paladins, this means you.)
RE: Shadow Knights
# Jan 06 2005 at 4:13 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
it'll be entertaining to troll the boards and make fun of you idiots that will complain. (Paladins, this means you.)

Idiots? your entire post is a bloody complaint Smiley: glare
RE: Shadow Knights
# Jan 08 2005 at 2:22 AM Rating: Default
What part of my post was a complaint? I offered up suggestions, which is what I thought this thread was about. Tell me, does this sound like a complaint:
Quote:
If the Shadow Knight is truely to be a knight, why shouldn't we have some sort of defensive discs? As one of the three main meat sheilds in the game, Warriors, Pallies, and SK's, it ought to be a shared deal between us all. Sure, the warriors should be better, but some sort of love for the SK and Pally would be great.
I'm simply putting in my 2cp about how I think a Shadow Knight and/or a Paladin, aka TANK, could be upgraded. I didn't ***** about our current discs, which I love, just offered a suggestion. How about this, does this sound like a complaint:
Quote:
As for spells, I'm totally satisfied with the way they are. We have DD, DoT, FD, and we can regen mana. Any adjustments to them for the better is a welcomed addition, but not a necessity.
Yes, that certainly falls into the catagory of complaints... You pie hole.
Quote:
AA's? Again, I like the AA's. Unfortunatly, unless you have 500 or so, you're still just a 2nd or 3rd rate warrior. Perhaps some adjustment to the cost of certain AA's is in the near future? That'd be grand. Alright, I'm done. I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes...
Any complaining in there? Nope. I simply stated that the cost of certain AA's might be lowered. I didn't say that we're getting screwed with our AA's, nor did I say we needed new/better ones.

Liveye, I should start a new thread commited to your rectal-cranial inversion, but I don't feel like writing 40 pages of content. How about you stick to quading Luclin, rubbin' one out to the late night "Girls Gone Wild" infomercials, and then eat my shorts.
Quote:
Always fun to watch the hypocrits running around complaining about how we have complaints about Sony's crap.
Anyone see a single mention of Sony or their 'crap' in my post? Anyone at all?

Liveye (lvl 65 Dumbass)
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 6:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Always fun to watch the hypocrits running around complaining about how we have complaints about Sony's crap. It makes one wonder how they can justify it, maybe they have a split personality they can blame it on so they can continue to live content...
Quit Whining!
# Jan 06 2005 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
**
497 posts
Christ, Sony tries to do something for you and all you can do is complain about it. Grow up and instead of trying to forecast how you're going to get screwed over more, do something useful and provide them with good, solid info about what your class needs, or what can be done to make them more desirable.

Monks have been pretty good at that lately, consulting with our class liason on our class boards, and we got things done. Feign Death got fixed (4 fails in a row vs SK/Necro FD rarely failing.) We got our useless GoD AAs made useful (Stunning Kick, Eye Gouge, Crippling Strike.) And a couple others.

What is complaining going to do but make Sony say "Well what the hell, we try to help and get ******* at more, I give up."
When???
# Jan 06 2005 at 2:40 AM Rating: Default
OK. Has this been done yet? I play a Druid and for the past three weeks or so I've noticed a serious problem with my XP gain. I've watch guild members of the same lvl who play less gain 2,3, 4 or even 5 lvl's in the time its taken me to gain 1. Yes we've been fighting in the same zones and yes our AA xp is set at the same lvl. Did druids get an XP penalty or what? Can someone explaine this? Finally ding'd 62 after three weeks yet a cleric friend of mine went from 60 to 64 in the same amount of time.
RE: When???
# Jan 06 2005 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
**
497 posts
Take a look at the news article date. One day before your post. This is going to be an ongoing process, and they're going to need to be careful and cautious, or they'll break the game and make more flock to WoW and EQ2.
Wizards
# Jan 06 2005 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
"Class Balance" to me means Wizards become even less useful ... in any situation.

The only thing we were really good at AoE groups for AAs and normal XP, has been nerfed almost completely out of the game. XP groups with level 50s have SKs and Palis using 40/30 weapons. Rogue with 30 damage backstabbers, etc.

But our spell DPS remains the same. Oh, we did get a 30/20 Epic 2.0 I guess that means they want Wizards to melee now for their DPS?

(WTB +Atk Augs)

Fixing Manaburn, would only be the tip of the iceberg.

That, or nerfing SK Deathtouch, Ranger bow damage, etc. In a VERY big way.
RE: Wizards
# Jan 06 2005 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
Sure, OK... and mages?

You can friggin BUY summoned items in the baz or PoK. So where does that leave us? DPS. Good friggin luck without a pet, or even with a pet sometimes, it seems.

ALL classes need something fixed about them... well, most anyway :P

SK Harmtouch doesn't do a heck of a lot of DPS, btw. It's got a long reuse cycle. It's like saying clerics can DA or DB whenever they want, so there's no point in taunting off of them. Just thought you should know.

For the most part, you're supposed to get focii to help with your spell damage... that's the point, it seems.
RE: Wizards
# Jan 06 2005 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
First of all, I play a lvl 70 rogue, and atm the highest known peircer in the game is a 28 and drops in Anguish; the first 21 dmg dagger drops in time, so i'd like to see this 30 dmg backstabber you're talking about.. =/

Second, I'd like to see rogues get something they could contribute to a group besides dmg. Rogues don't have any group useful skills (besides corpse recovery, if you can even count that ><). Rangers and wizards have snare and root and do near as much dmg. Monks do near as much too and they can fd pull. Rogues can't heal, snare, root, track, tank, mez, slow, pull, buff/debuff...nothing =( all we have is damage, which we are damn good at, but we don't contribute much else to a group, and we can't really solo, unless maybe if you're seriously uber hehe; screwed either way. I would like something we can add to a group, I would even settle in the form of aa's or discs. Btw, rogues are almost never messed with during patches, you never see them mentioned, they never add or detract from them...might just be me, but I don't think so. Not to mention our 1.5 was only 21 dmg (+1 poison dmg) and the 2.0 is 27 dmg (+2 poison) and the 2.0 was supposed to be the best in the game...

So I don't want to hear anything about wizards, I see lots of wizards get picked because they can snare, invis, evac, and do dmg on top of all that.
RE: Wizards
# Jan 07 2005 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
K, sorry. I shouldn't have generalized so much. I forget how much of a difference 2 damage can realistically make with a Rogue. And I have to agree with you, I'd like to see Rogues doing a lot more than they do now, I played one to 60 when that was as high as you could go. And gave it up because, it just lacked what made me want to be a rogue. I'm used to Rogues in a RPG, disarming traps, telling the brutish warrior to back off if he doesn't want his head ripped off by the big mechanical trap in the wall. As for my other complaints, sorry. But the problem with SKs is this. They can all HT at the same time. A Wizard can do one Manaburn at a time, and when they do ... it's laughable. Personally, I think the problems are quite simply far-reaching. Too many classes have had their definition blurred or trampled. SKs honestly, I feel for them. ALL they seem to get is HT AAs. Rogues in general I honestly think are fairly balanced, their problem REALLY is that they lack some of the fun class defining things that would make me want to play again. Much like the awe that I felt when I saw my first Manaburn made me want to play a Wizard. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I just want something for my class that makes me excited about playing again.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 5:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Rouges do damage. That's all, and you do it better because they have risen resistance and lowered AC and removed weapon type resistances. Their group role is disarming traps, scouting, and unlocking doors for utility and that's all it should be. What needs to be done is something that lets damage spells actually land on mobs and that's about it...
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 05 2005 at 11:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SPELL it paly nerf....they nerfed our pacify, stuns, dps....what now the speed of our horses?.....my 70 pal is 1800 ac, 10k hp buffed ...and im not time or ep equiped....have worked hard on gear for many years...im betting they tear it up again...the new spells suck pretty much....so what next.......OH let me add the 2.0 that hasnt been solved yet...allways the most difficult quest for epic....im whining an i appologize to you all but dont nerf us again pls...
RE: NERF
# Jan 06 2005 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
Pally the hardest?
I know way more paladins that got their Epic 1.0 than Necromancers. The Necro 1.0 seems to be very difficult. So maybe its time Pallys had to do some work.
RE: NERF
# Jan 14 2005 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
Pally's do Alot of work for their epic. I have 1/3 of my epic done. And all I have to say is that All the epics are hard. The reason for this is because the epics are NICE weapons. SoE did right in making them this hard.(again they are all hard) Would it be the same if a lvl 26 was running around with it? I think not.
RE: NERF
# Jan 10 2005 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
I believe that he may be talking about 2.0 which was just recently solved. I could be wrong however
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 2:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SPELL IT CRY BABY! Good bloody hell, I HATE Paladins! SHUT THE HELL UP, QUIT ********* then run to Nerriak and KILL YOURSELVES!
RE: NERF
# Jan 05 2005 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
You make a good point. I have noticed that recently it is getting harder to find good tanks and most of my friends who used to play tanks are giving them up for casters because of the horrific nerfs, but keep in mind that we are all getting hit with the nerf bomb each tme they release another patch, although I do have to admit I have seen many pallies out tank warriors, although I do agree that pallies have been hit hard. Just for the record I do have a lvl 26 pally but dont play him much recently.
This Had Better Be Big
# Jan 05 2005 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
This had better be a huge boost to the game. Personally I will keep playing till it dies because I really enjoy the game and I have alot of time invested, though very little time by most standards I suppose. I think that we need to see a big change to keep people with EQ so that we can see the High End raiding guilds return, instead of going to other games. I am a casual player by all accounts and dont get on much, but I would hope to be able to join a elemental or time guild to try to get some good gear and see new places. I am by no means uber but I do my best and I would like to see EQ become a bit more populated like it used to be so that more of u can get into the higher end zones. Maybe it is time we banded together and worked as a team to get there instead of whining about how bad things suck?
They are going to screw us over again. >_<
# Jan 05 2005 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
They better not nerf us, as bad as the current state of EQ is in right now(well, at least on Tarew Marr) any big nerfs to classes will hurt a ton, it's hard to get a group anymore at high levels due to people leaving on to WoW or EQ2. This better be a improvment or I see more people leaving. Raiding's hard to do anymore as it is.
#Mikimaru, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 2:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) GRIZ!!! YOU FAT FEK! =P sup bro
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 2:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wow, an intelligent quote from an even more intelligent group. ICP: Quite possibly the worst group to ever play "Music"...
Balancing
# Jan 05 2005 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
21 posts
I really think that the classes are fairly well balanced with regard to groups. The problem that I see in the game is that there is a distinct incentive to play a class which is soloable because you are not entirely reliant on a group to play the game.

While I don't really mind not being able to solo with my wizzy in the lower levels it IS frustrating to play this toon because I level so slowly in relation to my peers who I meet and who pass me by very quickly because they can supplement their group activities with solo xp(ditto for my warrior and chanter who are basically impossible to solo). What I MIGHT like to see you experiment with, is an xp bonus at low levels for non soloing classes.
RE: Balancing
# Jan 06 2005 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
I'm currently a 54 Wizard, and a quad of 4 blues yields 1% XP. In groups, I get 1-2% per kill. Someone's math is already screwy. More risk, for less reward for a class that has a hard time finding a group. Thanks Sony.
Hopeful
# Jan 05 2005 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
*
75 posts
Wow, SOE makes a statement that just about every person in the game wants to hear about something every person wants to have happen, and all they get is a bunch of complaining "eight year-olds" giving them crap about it.

Personally, I'm glad to hear it; especially after the release of other new MMORPGs it's nice to see they still think about it. And in this release they do tell us something. They let us know that they are aware of certain issues (group/raid contribution), have a plan to review them, will ask for feedback from the player base, and will then make whatever changes are necessary to address whatever is found. You have no right to complain when they offer to do something to improve the game, only if/when they fail to follow through. If/when that happens, by all means, bash away.

I for one am getting sick of the standard group setups and the "Holy Trinity" that makes class inclusion in these groups so specific and leaves so many classes out and if it means "making fundamental changes to the game" to correct this, I am extremely hopeful.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 05 2005 at 11:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ""Holy Trinity""
RE: Hopeful
# Jan 06 2005 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
I disagree to an extent. I have a 49 pally, and am only now able to find groups for xp and not just LDoN's. And even with the LDoN's at lower levels I always found that I was second choice to a war.(understandably) At higher levels I do agree however. Players understand the use of a good pally and use them in groups better. A pally is quite versatile as are most of the other classes at higher levels.

wizzy's nuke, chanters crowd control, warrior's, and pally's tank, and classes like beastlords, shammans, druids and clerics buff and heal, and lets not forget the dps that comes from rogues, zerkers,monks, necros, shadow knights and rangers and bards do a bit of everything, mages summon much needed items that can be used for almost any desired thing, arrows, armour, water and food, and even some of the best pets in the game.

Not to say that there aren't issues, because there are. The balancing issues are not that bad for most classes, the few classes that have big balancing issues are what should be resolved. I see alot of people complaining about the wizzy balancing. What I wouldnt do for my pally to be able to just gate. But that is not a skill that a pally should have so they don't have it. Wizzy's get about the highest dps in game at the higher levels. A war or pally will NEVER out dps a wizzy. One wizzy nuke does the same damage dealt by a pally or war in probably about 4 ticks. (if not more)

I think what everyone needs to do is sit back, stop complaining, and join in the discussions that Sony is going to have, if all you want to do is complain and not participate then what have you done to help correct the issues? Nothing!
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 05 2005 at 9:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Heh all I have to say to this is nothing, which is exactly what they just said in that WHOLE "announcement". It's like hearing some politician talk who spends millions of his own money to get a 200k a year job, only the crooked ones...
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 06 2005 at 3:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Gosh, you're an octard.
hmm.
# Jan 05 2005 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
Sounds like they're planning another nerf, yay.
...
# Jan 05 2005 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
to ensure that each class provides value in group and raid situations.


..Because we all know you F^cktards turned EQ into a 8yr old friendly, arcade game called EverLoot... "Where raiding, becomes your life"
RE: ...
# Jan 05 2005 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
YEAH!
RE: ...
# Jan 06 2005 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
40 posts
Who raids? No intention to flame here. If you do not belong to a guild who can put 50+ people together who can raid? And why would anyone raid with 50+ peep when there ends up being 4 items to split?

SOE has gone away from some basic concepts in the game as pointed out by a friend of mine. If a mob has 325 STR and a rusty blade how can they hit you for 500+damage each and every hit. When a light blue can kill an entire party something is wrong in the game basics.

So not only do the roles in groups/raids need to be reviewed the game basics/mechanics need to be reviewed.

my2C
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