no, plz don't go study these classes, go pvp them. sit in the arena and ooc for one to come duel you. or if you hate people jumping you go duel in queynos or gfay or something. The problem with studying them is that you get a very poor working understanding of the classes. I see this all the damn time on sullon. you know all the spells, their effects, and names. All of it. And you have an incredibly poor idea of what the classes are actually strong or weak against. The only way to get a good idea of this is to fight them. not once, not twice, but hundreds of times. Once you've fought a class hundreds of times and beat most of the people that play it you have a good idea of what a class can do. Half the bl00bs that come to sullon play druids or necros for the first week or two. Some of the more interesting ones play sk's or wizards, but not usually. They get to 30, buy 200k on ebay, get a fungi and some oober resist gear, and head to gfay/RV/FoB. Then they die to a marginally twinked warrior or monk or cleric. i've see it hundreds of damn times. hundreds. Tons of the people that come to sullon have multiple 65's that are elemental planes enabled. W00t your f'n leet, but it doesn't mean you know cr@p. So, for the sake of all that is holy, plz stop flaming people for not knowing anything because they are not 65 with 100+ AA's. Cuz people think you also are stupid. And we normally just ingore you. Plz share the apathy.

Zypheron, 65 warrior of Prexus --- You are saying alot of the same things I am. You aren't reading my posts obviously... I dont know what point you are getting to, BUT COMPARING DRUIDS AND SHAMANS IS NOT MY IDEA, BUT IF YOU DID COMPARE THE HP BUFFS AVAILABLE.... Just go back and read all my posts... you're practically repeating what IM saying. BTW I agree with your healer list, cleric first, then druid, then shammy and honestly if Im not the druid it's very unlikely Ill ask a druid to heal in my group unless I KNOW them and they are up to the job. I'm all about Player > Class.
I think alot of druids are solo artists who really are *capible* of doing alot, but really dont do anything. Mostly because of the same attitude as that guy who wrote his confessional. And dont get me wrong, just because I would take a beast or a chanter over a shammy does not mean I value them less than the other two. It's just if I am grouped with my Druid, I would prefer the additional dps of the beast mostly... and a chanter provides additional safety through mezzes over the additional slow of the shaman. I personaly never go oom healing a normal group I have a huge mana pool and FT 15 mana pres IV healing IV and all my healing aa's. If going OOM was an issue I'd consider the shaman over the beast because the additional dps will only cause us to pull quicker, take more damage faster than if we had a shaman.

These things are VERY situational, a person when looking to build a well balanced group needs to take a few things into consideration, you want to have crowd control, a stable healer, decent slower, and good DPS along with a good tank that can mediate damage well. But all of that really depends on what we are fighting... If the mobs we are tackling have special traits, say undead for instance, I might use a necro for slow and mezzes and just take a heavy DPS group Druid Necro Pally rogue war wiz... While this is NOT the most conventianl group with the right AA's they can rip through Mistmoore Ldons in no time.


Oh come on... I'm not angry but really you can't compare a druid and a shammy. It's a poor comparison and as a druid it's down right offensive. Quiescence is a cute spell, but 1200 healing over 24 seconds (300hp per tick for 4 ticks) at lvl 65 is a drop in the bucket, you and I both know most mobs will do that much damage in that much time. It's a fact that if you are trying to CH a tank, that quies on a tank who is fighting a slowed mob could buy a good couple seconds for a CH to land but its no good for healing unless you guys really aren't taking much damage in the first place.

It's just not fair to compare shamans to druids, Yes we are both priests, but completely different, it's like comparing enchanters and wizards.

Random effect... how the hell would you know??? LMFAO... your 55... at BEST you couldn't have even experienced all of the luclin content of this game, let alone the higher planes or any real raids all together. Seriously you can't speak on druid topics or even everquest gaming topics with me until you've played long enough to know this game. Seriously. At 55 you dont know squat.

Random effect... You say a druid shouldn't try to be a cleric... In a way thats definately what I'm saying, You see I think a DRUID is BETTER than a cleric, because of the DPS they provide. You make it sound like a cleric is the perfect healer... You dont know this game. Clerics ARE the most capible to heal, they put out the MOST healing in the shortest amount of time and can rez, but they LACK skills in ALOT of other areas. Higher end game tactics require alot more than someone that can just kick out alot of hp for you. I'm not even going to explain that... Just take my word for it.


FYI I do not think that a druid SHOULD be main healer all the time, I believe they CAN fill that roll if need be AT LEVEL 65 WITH the appropriate AA's. I want to be clear on that. If you can't heal then you dont know your class, if you can't charm then you dont know your class, if you can't dot and nuke, if you can't buff, if you can't quad, ----- Being a druid is about mastering all of these skills and USING THEM ----- Any time you dont have your spells or those skills you are ROBBING your group, and REALLY put a poor name on all druids.

It's that attitude that has caused the EQ community as a whole to lose faith in druids. How can you have all that power and then sit in a group like a bump on a log and really help no one?

Yes you can play your character however you want, but if you are going to be grouping you need to do your JOB. How would you feel if chanters joined groups and felt like playing their own way and nuking instead of mezzing or buffing. Your cleric decided to tank instead of healing... Everyone has DEFINED responsibilities in a group and if you lay down on the job you are wasting a group slot. The problem with druids is that they can do alot but end up doing nothing.

Alot of people end up soloing most of the way to 65 and lacking alot of skills, those lines of spells aren't suggestions they are part of the balance of power, they were given to you as part of your ******** you dont have to do any thing, but consider how effective a necro would be if he decided to stop using his dots, or a mage would be if he stopped using his pet. Sound silly? Good. Then you are starting to understand, this isn't about Astrokick's boxed image of a druid, it's about what a druid is capible of and what they should be providing in a group situation.

I haven't even MENTIONED raid responsiblities... but most things on raids have to do with AA's and ching, and curing, no reason to go into it, not like you would know anyways. You can look at the skills but have no idea about practical application of those skills.



Edited, Mon Feb 2 12:09:43 2004

so much hatred & venom astro & you forgot the single best heal spell shaman have ..

Quiescence
Description:
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 300 per tick

nope im not a shaman but i do use one & yes i do have a 65 druid amongst my many alts..

Blazey



Edited, Mon Feb 2 01:42:10 2004

droods vs shammys --

I just read your post... it's astonishing how people get to level 25 and want to speak on a class. Shammy's heal better??? On what Bizzarro Norrath do Shammy's heal better, you should check up it's not even close. Lmfao you better ask one. Druids have a superior line of healing spells... No buffs? LMFAO we get some of the best buffs in game, especially self buffs, it's just you have to get past level 25. Porting? If that's all you use your druid for you should erase it today. No good pet? Do you know the kind of damage a charmed plane mob does with savage spirit, hell even a lvl 45 mob in normal zones like UP and ME (places I still get exp @ 65) do outstanding damage with savage spirit? My pet is meleeing more damage than any member of your group is putting out, thats for sure, and definately more than anything your shammy is putting out in his wettest dream. But you are right, druid's dont get slow. It's about the only line of spells they dont touch. Without slow there really wouldn't be much reason for shamans. Shaman's really shine in a group with no druid, chanter, bard, or beastlord. They can play a slight utility role and do some healing. But over all the druid... he's an all in one super caster.

Yeah the druid can do it all, at any point that we choose to focus our skills we aren't just a patch, we excel at all we do.

DPS? In a dungeon with no animals, our dots stacked with our nukes, and ds damage, and lame little bear, is reasonable.

Out in the open not only can I kill 8 plane mobs at once. With a charmed plane mob with savage spirit and my dots and nukes and ds, for that 40 seconds it takes for the mob to die I dont think there is any class that can command that type of damage. Period. My druid dps is UNREAL. Believe that.

No we aren't better than wizards at pure nuking, no we aren't better than clerics at pure healing, no we aren't better than necro's at put doting, no we aren't better than enchanters at charming / buffing/ or crowd control. But we are REALLY damn close on all of them... and once you realize that, thats when you will gain the ability to channel your inner druid!

My pet quadding for 180-320 a swing (depending on where I am and what I can dire charm) my dots hitting for 260 175 180 32 (2 of which are mana free) = 647 every 6 seconds for at least 1 minute = 6470 (That isn't max dotting, that's just what I use because it's low mana cost for me). I cast 3 nukes during a fight of 1550 = 4650. That's not max dps that what I do in a group Im healing in just to balance my mana regen with mana costs of my spells... every blow taken by my team gives the mob takes 40 damage, that ds is seriously a lot of damage alone every time a mob quads that 160 more damage.

I do 10k spell damage to every pull for my group, aside from ANY damage from my pet or ds, both of which will give a considerable amount of damage if I had to estimate over a 90 second fight a good 4k damage easily.

I swear to you I am under the belief I do as much damage during a fight as a wizard when counting all the damage I do. I definately feel I'm pulling my weight when it comes to damage output. My buffs are nothing to be scoffed at. Yet I can still be primary healer WHILE doing this damage. This is what I base my best healer in game theory on.

But when you consider the fact that if I have a good tank, I wont have to spot heal much on groupmates BoR does alot of healing, I can do even more damage.

Next time you are grouped, I want you to calculate how much damage your wizard actually does per pull, from my exp on average they are doing 8-12k per pull dependant on mana pool. I KNOW they are capible of much more, although mana cost keeps it to about that.

Exactly as mentioned here when Im doing damage at this rate my particular mana bar regens at the same pace we are pulling at with 60 - 90 seconds fights. I can do this damage AND heal in a group, BUT if im healing I wont dot or dd 2 out of 5 fights and use that time to med. To be fair I can only provide that damage while healing 40-60% of the time.

Once you get a good druid it will blow your mind.
That is dps your cleric isn't even dreaming of coming up with, causes mobs to die faster doing less damage, requiring less healing and killing mobs much faster.

People have hard times with non-melee dps, but if you could see my dots, ds, pet, nuke, all at once I'd spam you to death. But you know the rule... If you dont see it, then it doesn't exist.

If your druid is sitting back and just healing, or just nuking, you have a WEAK druid. Thats almost the same has having a bard that plays one song at a time, or a mage playing without his pet, or a chanter in your group without mez.

This is my last word on this subject. You have to play your druid's like bards. You have to be using multiple skills at once to prove your value. If you are a non healing druid, a non nuking druid, a non buffing druid, a non charming druid, a non grouping druid, you suck. Period.

---
P.S. Unlucky Charms -- I have never seen a cleric do that, although I do not doubt your ability to pull it off. Im sure by the time you have hit 65 you've healed as primary healer enough that someone pulling 4 mobs isn't going to cause you to soil your panties, but really this is a problem you most of the time aren't going to be solving, just patching up long enough so someone else can mez or get aggro.

For your cleric, it's not quite as easy as a druid evacing or blowing out a couple roots, but clerics do have a lvl 62 1.75 second root which is normally fast enough to pin a mob down in a bad spot, but that chanter better be ready to mez cause that root drops faster that a 2 dollar hookers panties. Not only that but if the group chanter is even slightly competent they would be handling this problem reguardless, not really the cleric or the druid. BUT in this situation, I would think it would be slightly easier for a druid to handle... It's part of our nature with the evacs, and super quick roots and snares, it's what we do best, but this is a perfect example of where a cleric comes in JUST behind a druid in a healing situation.

Edited, Sun Feb 1 12:48:21 2004

Everybody says... well clerics are better healers, wizzys do more damage, am i the only on who hasn't forgotten that while druids aren't the best healers/buffers/nukers they are one of the only classes that CAN do them all.

Gaboo Kerosan
25 Froggy Warrior
Stromm

Please man... Keep these confessions to yourself.

Seriously your thread was like a punch in the stomach. You represent everything that is foul with the druids out there. You are the reason druids are despised by some players and often excluded from groups.

You know there is nothing wrong with being a solo druid, the only problem is you dont learn your class. Anyone who doesn't know his class shouldn't be out on the internet posting about it.

I'm not going to harp on you man, but you should consider learning your class, because once you did you wouldn't be afraid of your group dying and having to be rezed.

You want to save your group 20 minutes? Which is quicker, 3 second evac, or rezzing 5 people, rebuffing and medding to full, IF you didn't die yourself and had to CR all the way back to rez the others?

Change your prospective. If someone dies on a pull... out of your healing range what do you do? Suck it up. CR his body, and have him haul buttox back to camp, once you are done with whatever you are doing have a pally or cleric rez him then.

20 minutes lost? I dont think so.. if he is 20 minutes away then you port out to get him and port him back. 5 minutes resting after a rez, or 5 minutes hoofing back to camp. It's still 5 minutes.

I know some things are out of your hands... but believe this, if you KNOW your druid, then people wont be dying in your groups.

ok... i wont lie... my main char is a warrior... but druids are an awesome class, my best friend plays a druid, as i have no spells... he does all of our casting, but, we generally beat whatever we fight, i havent been on EQ for more than 3 months, but anyone who says druids suck hasn't seen them played right.

Gaboo Kerosan
25 Froggy Warrior
Stromm

I dunno ive seen another list of potential abilities at Casters Realm ( http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=5309 ) and shifting through it it doesnts sound like druids are getting anything unquie, other classes like shaman and cleric will be given the healing pet, and other class (example enchanter) get special stuff like the ability i read doppleganger which makes a clone of the enchanter, Druids have been getting ragged on by people for a long time i think its bout time we got something unque to get us back in the wanted more in groups.

Atleast thats my 2 cents worth, I play a druid as my main and only my druid, i love bieng a druid but with every expansion i find it harder and harder to get a group cause people think we should solo it or the want more out of that last group spot, even though a druid is a utility knife of spells doesnt seem to be enought for people anymore

First off I hope this thing does at least 80hp per tick. On the planes where casters are now averaging 5k hp, anything less would be of minimal and negligable use, with tanks running on 7-10khp it would take this thing over 10 minutes to heal one if it was healing at 80hp per tick. 100hp-150hp would be sweet, anything in access of 200hp is a dream, it would actually allow clerics for one to participate in combat alot more, and druids to truely shine in a group. I know soe, I'd have better luck finding a desperate millionare supermodel with no gag reflex looking for a fat guy who loves EQ than getting a useful healing pet from SoE.

I'm curious as to how this thing is going to work. Whether or not its going to be a static buff i.e Shialoh's Warder and work like a stackable regen spell when in the aoe area of the warder. Which would then have the limitations of a spell stacking issues and what not.

Or this is going to work like PC healing "Shialoh's Warder has healed you for 80 points of damage"...

I doubt very much these things will be stackable.. in their own AOE effect area... It would be entirely too sweet to plop down 15 of these bad boys and huddle together to counteract the AOE's of some pop mobs.

...

Oh well those are just some thoughts i've had, I'd like to know about this AA. If anyone has done beta and wants to release what they think about it or how it works I'd be glad to hear it.

Edited, Fri Jan 30 20:13:22 2004

Well lets see...so as a druid I "sit and soak up exp" oh my...I guess as I get closer to Plane of Time I better tell all the people I have met on the way to 65 and Elemental Planes that I am just no good! Good grief what a stupid statement. Are you even above lvl 30? Have you ever really raided Tier 3 PoP and/or up? I have played a druid as my main for over 2yrs and cant recall any time any group I was in felt I didnt contribute. I heal as in MAIN healer for Elemental Planes Experiance groups. My FT rocks and my mana pool is DEEP and My AA points are over a hundred. So you know I take statements like this exactly for what they are worth....
which is ..nothing! And just because every idiot you ever knew rolled up a druid ONCE and played it a few lvls means nothing to a lvl65 100+ AA Elemental Flagged StormWarden. Please take it upon yourself to tell every Druid like that you meet how useless they are. Oh, wait to meet Druids like that you might have to be 65 and Elemental flagged too....never mind :)