Dev Chat on Nov 24th, Preview of Potential Melee Changes

From the EQLive Site:
EverQuest Chat on November 24th at 6:00pm - 7:00pm pacific time. Melee System Enhancements! You've been asking for them and now we're ready to discuss them. We're taking a big departure from what many of you are used to when it comes to combat. With that in mind, here is a brief summary of these exciting enhancements to better help you target your questions to us during the live chat. Don't worry if you miss the chat, we'll post the logs on EverQuestLive.com
  • Increase the contributions melee classes provide in a group setting
  • Address the current deficit between the pure melee classes and other classes
  • Add more depth and potential for skilled play to melee combat
  • Provide a system that encourages attentiveness and decision-making skills, without focusing heavily on twitch gameplay Take advantage of an opponent's weakness. See an opening, strike home for the kill! Monks, Rogues and Warriors will gain the ability to recognize certain weaknesses in an opponent's defense. These "Openings" will be a variety of types and can occur based on several different situations during combat. Be quick though, an opening will not present itself for long. Strike quick with a new combat skill once your character recognizes an opening. These new combat skills are being designed just for this combat system revision. Using and maintaining these skills expends the character's Endurance (a new statistic, calculated from the character's basic stats). Here's a combat example: A warrior is serving as the tank for his group, standing in front of a goblin. While battling the goblin, the warrior makes an exceptional parry and is presented with an opening. An indicator appears with the "opening icon" and the word "Parry" next to it (this information also appears in the chat window). Now is his opportunity to strike back after the exceptional parry! Only certain combat skills can be used to react to a parry opening. Other types of openings will allow the use of other skills. Some skills may be usable in response to more than one type of opening. Also, your position in relation to the target can change the effectiveness of certain skills. In this case, our warrior knows that he can use one of three combat skills, each having some merit. One might stun the target, one might increase the hate generated by the warrior for a few rounds, and one might make it easier for everyone to hit the NPC. In this case, our warrior elects to try to stun the goblin. He presses the appropriate button and luck smiles upon him as he successfully executes the strike, leaving the goblin standing dumbly for a combat round. Increasing Your Endurance and Learning New Skills
  • Increase Endurance by increasing attributes or by acquiring special items that directly increase your Endurance pool
  • Find tomes or instructions manuals and take them to specific trainers to learn new skills
  • Choose your skills from skill categories (such as Tactical) containing skills focused to a purpose
  • Most openings are available only to a single character, but some are available to all nearby characters
  • Disciplines will be transferred to this new system
  • Existing Discipline timers will be reviewed, and several will probably be set to their own timer
  • Disciplines will require an Endurance cost
  • Hybrids will receive a limited Endurance pool for their disciplines There will be other changes as well. Keep your eyes on the Test server and our update messages for more details as we move forward. This new system is much more flexible than the existing disciplines. It will be relatively easy to add new combat skills, as well as new skills that are not limited to openings. This system creates the possibility for tremendous enhancement in the future, allowing groups a large number of options when it comes to melee combat. Talk to you in the Live Chat! Alan
  • Discuss, share your thoughts!

    Comments

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    monks
    # Nov 25 2003 at 3:09 AM Rating: Default
    monks are not DD unless well geared.. end of story there. and are we pullers anymore. lol i havent pulled a raid or a groups in months.. i know the warriors are hurting badly with this agro sit.. but i wouldnt mind some monk love to the burnt out 5 year vet monk that i am. my love for the game is nearly lost as i watch classes get beefed and others nerfed.

    Ringmasta 65th monk
    sol ro
    monk point of view
    # Nov 25 2003 at 3:02 AM Rating: Default
    my brothers a warrior. he hates his class after 65 lvls and 32 AA's.. of late the protest has gotten to him and he quit EQ. relizing he wont get anywhere in the AA department because he sits in BoT for 4 hours a night not watching knights get groups over him as they shout. so i feel for them. being a very nicly geared monk with too AA's to waste on the worthless AA's we get, i know first hand the agro problems. my firey staff of zha pulls agro off any warrior with i have ever grouped with that is not using a blade of war or better.
    now for the monks. i mean fellas.. we are more of a burden in groups if we are not geared well. i did my time and earned my gear but i was there once, and im crazy glad im not there again. monks are no where near a DD class without great gear or many many AA's.. out damage is straight up butt.. they say we hit fast.. i dont see it. they say we hit harder not seeing that either. i have parsed out damage in groups and raids.. you know who wins. in a time farming guild the rogue wins. they will and should always hold a high hand on damage. wizards should be next. after that it goes: mages wizards necros rangers (baring bow use) then the rest is all pretty close. with warriors pulling up the rear. but theres no way a pally and sk should stand near a monk in terms of damage. i have always toped them but not by much.
    and pulling.. you know how long its been since i pulled a mob??? i get asked to pull king tormax once in a while... pop has no use nor does ldon.. we have our enchanters or clerics pull indoors, and rangers and druids outdoors..
    we also use to be a stand alone solo type class.. thats over .. oh ya.. and thanks for nerfing battlefists proc of the stun.. that cut me deep. the fist has been banked since then.
    RE: monk point of view
    # Nov 26 2003 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
    Being a mage I would like to point out we have few hitpoints and low AC plus we lack any roots, mez, snares and also we cannot heal ourselves so if our pet dies we are in for a world of hurt.
    Warriors have alot more hp and AC then mages as for monks atleast you get FD while all mages get is real death :)
    I am just pointing out each class has disadvantages so lets just wait until SoE gets done with adding this feature for the warrior classes.
    Really until its in and been tweaked for a month or so as its really to earlier for people to whine that it sucks without even trying it.
    RE: monk point of view
    # Dec 09 2003 at 3:44 PM Rating: Default
    Hmmm last i checked mage has a pet with root ......
    Taunt
    # Nov 25 2003 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
    I think the Taunt is the key like everyone is saying. i have a pally, and i can take aggro from most warriors i group with, and when i taunt, i always take aggro, they should either replace the Warrior Taunt skill with a new skill and just move all the points over, and make the Warrios's taunt better than a Pally or SK. And just make eay Warrior hit generate more hate than a pally or SK hit, plane and simple. Warriors should hold aggro....i think i see more Pallys than Warrios main tank in LDON groups, that just doesnt make sense...Warriors are the tanks of norrath. Pallys are Assisters for the most part, or should be.
    RE: Taunt
    # Nov 27 2003 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
    if warriors get this improved aggro,why the hell have paladins and shadows? the warriors would have aggro IF YOU WOULD CONTROL YOURS!!! paladins and shadows = insane aggro decent tank,warrior = THE TANK!!! and ****** aggro. sounds to me like the stuff is balanced. so all you ***** *** warriors that can't hold aggro,let the people out aggroing you die,once they dead,they won't out aggro you anymore =P
    RE: Taunt
    # Nov 25 2003 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
    I have a Pally that I play and I make it a point not to try and get the aggro except with the casters need assistance or to melee adds if there is not a chanter to mezz. Just because I can pull aggro is no reason to do it. It's not my job or my role.
    It IS twitch gameplay!
    # Nov 25 2003 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
    gotta love the doublespeak in the announcement ...

    "Provide a system that encourages attentiveness and decision-making skills, without focusing heavily on twitch gameplay "

    very soon folled by:

    " Strike quick with a new combat skill once your character recognizes an opening"

    and other similar twitch twitch examples.

    Do they think we can't think for ourselves at all?
    DAoC combat anyone ?
    # Nov 24 2003 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
    This sounds to me much like the DAoC combat specialazation system, openings, leading to moves, and combos into longer combos, I played a BM till I got bored of RealmPoints and it was actually kind of a neat way to do it
    Hello wake up and smeel the CoCo Buttah
    # Nov 24 2003 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
    Well how to put this so those that break everything down can figure it out :o)

    Simply put Agro is determaned by several issues currently.. A= Direct damage.. B=Slowing * how much damage you prevet from happening* c=taunt(GIMP at current settings) easy way to say this.. improve a Warriors DPS which in return putes them higher on the hate list.. Make the Taunt BUTTON useful.. as far as opening etc well hay it might be fun for a minute LOL but in the ened increase the ability of which they currently have to do the Job in which they were made for.. Because lets be honest My 60 sha can out taunt that taunt button anyday.. sk's pallys can hold it through spells so Crank up the Hate on tauntCrank up the Hate on taunt..

    Slycce.
    65 war
    Nozbufz
    60sha


    There is more to EQ then AA points
    # Nov 24 2003 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
    No one ever seems to mention the fact that playing a warrior from level 35 to 51 is truly a test of endurance.

    Everyone else is getting new spells. Warriors get.... any one??? Nothing.

    No new skills, no spells, and after 40, you can't even look forward to bettering your weapons skills.

    After 51, you get more disciplines (hmm, is this as exciting as say the new spell every level that palis and SK get? nope)

    Add that fact to the taunt problems, and levels 35-51 become 16 consecutive hell levels.

    Doebi (past the dreaded 51, but still seeking profession help to recover from it.)
    blarg
    # Nov 24 2003 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
    I play a bard, and combat is busy enough while twisting, this wait-for-an-opening crap is gonna suck while twisting.

    Orche Stra
    RE: blarg
    # Nov 24 2003 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
    Bards are a hybrid class. These changes are for MELEE ONLY classes so dont get too upset!!

    KAFIN 34 Rogue
    Rallos Zek
    RE: blarg
    # Nov 24 2003 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
    Bards are a hybrid class they will not have this new MELEE ONLY skill so dont worry about it
    RE: blarg
    # Nov 25 2003 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
    The Notice is mainly for Melee only but there will be changes for Hybrids too according to the message. LOL If I wanted to play DAoC I would be, NOT EQ, The hybrid changes will be minor I hope.
    More DPS?
    # Nov 24 2003 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
    Fisrt off I read donw the thread to the point where i realized that everyone was talking about how a warrior can hold argo versus a sk and pally. which is fine for a good discussion and it is something that needs to be addressed.
    Problem i have is when i read the top of the post and it is talking about new skills and using an endurance bar instead of a mana bar (can only imagine a little blue line up there for my rogue now instead of the mana one on my cleric.)
    Actually doesnt seen like that bad of an idea why not give me button to press everyonce in a while. If it means that my character can use this special attack and create a wound on the mob that acts like a dot spell or something Im all for it. base the damage for the dot on the damage of the weapon and the time or the dot based on the delay of the weapon.... those really big swords would be welcome most anywhere if you press a button when the screen tells you to and you do an extra slice of damage every round for how everlong the delay is... just an idea but would definetly **** the mob off.... especially if they build the argo into using cetain abilities...

    Guess it will be some work and a little more challenging but then again not as challanging as having to save up pp for months to buy a sword that may or may not help you hold argo... and then in my characters case im just looking to increase dps.... give me more options to increase that and ill look into it.. if its too much work or not worth it well guess ill just to continue to play the game as is...
    Well just my thoughts should be intresting just to see something new maybe bring a little more skill into the game for me besides just pressing a button whenever a timer expires.. might even pay more attention to some of the fights...(dont flame me for that one i play a rogue and usually i just have to see witch way the mob is turning and remeber my back stab will reset in so many seconds... i know tanks have alot more to worry about but this is for all melee not just warriors..)
    Taunt
    # Nov 22 2003 at 10:39 PM Rating: Default
    How about an aa skill, enhanced taunting? I'd also like an aa faster run speed for my enchanter pet too, (I have to keep stopping to let him catch up), but that's another subject
    RE: Taunt
    # Nov 23 2003 at 1:14 AM Rating: Default
    No. No. No.

    That is ludicris.

    Why should warriors have to spend AA points when they have trouble getting a group in the first place to get them, at the levels it really matters? They are supposed to get agro. So when they taunt, they should get it. Plain and efficent.
    RE: Taunt
    # Nov 23 2003 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
    Agreed. Let's review SK/Pally/Warrior taunt method (and listen up SoE):

    Pallys: Use spells at range like stun to get initial agro at range, then have group heals to help hold agro.

    SKs: Use spells like DoTs to get agro at range, then the DoT keeps doing damage to keep agro.

    Warriors: Have arrows to gain agro at range (though they don't work as good as spells), then have the Taunt button.

    I'm sure warriors do much more Taunt mashing that Pallys/SKs. What we need is a natural enhanced Taunt modifier. You'd think that by 60+ we'd be masters of battle, able to keep the monsters attention and stand proudly in front of the Mob. Instead, we are put to shame by Crusaders for a cause and Knights for a dark cause. Nay, we need natural agro modifiers and make the Taunt ability go beyond 230. After all, the more use we can get out of that ability, the better (especially since that's the only way we can hold agro). I plan on talking in that live chat on Monday, I hold a good deal more of my warrior brothers are there too so we can fight the good fight.
    RE: Taunt
    # Nov 28 2003 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
    pallies do not group heal unless they have to. i do not group heal unless i have to, it eats an assload of mana and if i did that every fight i would be OOM in 2-3 fights. Pallies stun, plain and simple. Pull mob with stun, stun once when it arrives at camp and then i'm usually set for the rest of the fight. if i loose aggro then i just stun and it runs back to me.

    Now, as for warrior aggro. Yes, it needs a little tweaking, but not a major overhaul. The warriors in my guild can get aggro over me any day of the weak, and once ive lost it, it is actually fairly hard to get back(i've tried on some of the lesser trash mobs). The warrior class has been shifted away from the solo(long time ago) and the group(more recent) environments to be molded to fit a roll in raids. If a warrior got instant and permanent aggro on a normal exp mob, then he would be able to do the same with a raid mob. That would totally unbalance raids. I am not saying you should be fit for the raid environment alone, you can't exp that way, but you should not be made so awesome for groups that raids become too trivial either. There has to be some middle ground, hopefully the upcoming expansion's raid points or whatever they are will address this.
    A Monks Thoughts
    # Nov 22 2003 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
    What's the role of a monk at the high end of the game anymore? The AA's and equip. have let the rangers become awesome pullers in places like BoT, and SK's with spells and hp's can pull very effectively almost anywhere. Using FD as a pulling tactic has become an unnecessary art, so what's the monks role these days. Since the nerfing of the class took place, their role has really become almost non-existent, at least at the 60-65 level. There are a lot of comments above about the ineffectiveness of warriors in todays game, but very limited comments about monks. While warriors are still a popular class, the number of monks seems to have dropped drastically. I have a 65 SK, a 65 cleric, a 60 pally and a 56 monk. My favorite character is my monk. They were all at the same level a year ago. It's pretty obvious which characters I've played over the last year, and it's directly related to their value in groups and consequently their ability to get groups. There is a real need to upgrade the monks ability or unnerf it, if monks are going to become meaningful characters in the future. The last several changes and the AA's have swung the game heavily in favor of the casters and hybrids. While there may be many solutions, I would prefer not to get my monk into the same stunning/casting/ect mode as the casters and hybrids. A workable solution surely lies in adding effective taunts, hp modifiers, and agro increasers for warriors and attack and avoidance modifiers for monks. There classes are pure fighters. Fix the problem of their ineffectiveness, please; But not by giving us hybrid and casters skills and abilities.
    You pitiful fools
    # Nov 22 2003 at 3:23 AM Rating: Decent
    1)You all seem to be forgetting something:
    YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THE OPENINGS!!!
    this way, if you are a warrior, you can still have active combat system, if you want to use it.
    2)OF course they would use something in EQ that worked in DAoC, why not?
    It is bad business to allow your competition any advantage at all, if something works for them, then it will probably work for you.
    This is why all football teams have mascots, yet we don't see anyone complaining about this, (ie.:
    "If i wanted to see a mascot i would watch the Raiders, not the Bears!"
    Now do you realize why SOE ports most things that work on other MMORPGs to EQ?
    RE: You pitiful fools
    # Nov 23 2003 at 1:10 AM Rating: Default
    Give me a break! If things worked so well in daoc, why did 40% of its playerbase, leave and return to eq, in the first 3 months?

    I realize it is a game. And while I enjoy some of the complexities of the game, I want it to be simple...Not something I have to sit down and think out.

    If I was starting from new, it would be great. But I don't want/need the headaches of learning the new nerfs.
    RE: You pitiful fools
    # Nov 24 2003 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
    Simple answer, DAoC staked the farm on Realm VS Realm, and failed to make it work, if they had focused on dungeon crawl and the genre that SOE had going EQ would ALL be the vacant dustbowl that the non-planes are. The first 20 levels and the few dungeons that existed were kick a$$ fun and a blast, it was only after you'd played RvR for a while that the horrible imbalances became apparent. I tend to agee with you though, I wish they'd address the issues that exist now, then add spice, what about the 20% of the zones that are vacant now ? What about the lack of tanks at a high end, maybe it is just our server but got DPS, healers, nukers, slowers, just no meat shields, Pally's SK's and Warriors are rare and getting more so...and sorry guys but a ranger really can't tank, well or for long, nor the monk
    My two copper...
    # Nov 21 2003 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
    Here's a simple philosophy: If you don't like EQ and it's not FUN for you, then don't play it.

    Personally, I think these changes sound like they will at least make tanking a little more interesting. It's nothing that you are required to do, but some options that add a little more depth to the warrior role.

    ANYONE can currently play their characters in a simple, straightforward sort of way and do the minimum that's required of them to get things done in-game or they can go a different route and learn all about the different things they can do, when it's good to do them, what's most effective, different combinations of spells/moves/whatever and go above and beyond. Either way you choose to currently go, you can still play and be an effective part of a group.

    How is this really any different? It's just going to offer some new options that will give those folks who want to take the extra time to learn the little intracacies of the game something to do.

    Again, if you're not having fun, you're not really PLAYING. It's a GAME, folks...no matter how much it may feel like another life...it's supposed to be FUN! So smile once in a while and remember this - SOE isn't trying to torture you with patches and changes; they're trying to keep EQ interesting and engaging for everyone. :)

    And there's my two copper.
    RE: My two copper...
    # Nov 26 2003 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
    Hehe, careful Hoja, you inform someone that it is in fact a game and they're liable to bite your head off :P For some reason no one seems to realize it :P
    RE: My two copper...
    # Nov 21 2003 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
    /agreed Hoja.
    What i have seen
    # Nov 21 2003 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
    Ok...time to take this from a Caster point of view.Im gonna use the LdoN example.Now...I have been doing Ld adventures for the last 10 levels,(am lvl 62 now)And have grouped with Pallys/SK's/And yes Warriors.And you know what I have found? That a Pally for instance can keep aggro off of me and i can DoT to my evil little hearts content.Sk can pretty much do the same....but its a bit harder.Warriors..Well...I can do A Dot....Or nuke at about 40% without having to FD a mob off me..

    Now that I have Rehashed the problems...What do i think could be done to fix it?

    Simple...Give Warriors a way to hold aggro as easily as pallys....Maybe an "Innate" Enraging Blow to their attacks....some thing like "Adds 1+ 2XChar Level hate per attack) and have it be Warriors only.

    Warriors still on average have more hps and better armor than the hybrids...but that depends on gear to a great extent.

    Maybe a 5% increase to hps/ac would work...wouldnt make it too unbalancing..

    And for all you Pallies and SK's.Tell me with your spells you cant generate alot more Aggro then Warriors...Sk's I know can solo...Probably with heals and your wonderful abilities at undead...you guys can solo...Tell me a warrior can solo unbuffed past level 20...without spending a half hour binding afterwards...and sitting down and healing the rest.

    As for the other melee classes Rogue and Monk.Hmmm...Maybe a oppurtunity to BS with offhand as well might increase things....but anybody thats played a rogue for a while knows that they rock for damage if played/geared decently.Monk...I have no freakin clue how to make it more balanced....ive only played a monk to 27 and the only thing i can think of is FD to clear all aggro like it does for necros.

    Well...Thats my rant/*****/Weirdo point of view...Take it or leave it.
    What is this CRAP??
    # Nov 21 2003 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
    So SoE is throwing warriors a bone, and hoping the problem will go away?????????

    Dear God, but I hope the idiots over there at SoE actually read this.....

    First off, if I wanted any more crap scrolling across my screen, and choices of when I can use disciplines, I would leave this game and go play dark age of camelcrap.

    Why can these idiots at SoE realize I could care less about impossible-to-achive disciplines that I have to find uber rare crap for, and take to my trainer, blah blah blah.....

    I could care less about the 'ultra-uber-powerful-single-thrusting-shove-my-sword-into-it's-private-spot' disciplines and other crap.

    All I, and almost every decent warrior that I know, want is......are you ready sony??

    When we press taunt, we gain agro.

    Thats it man. Bottom line.

    I have seen a lot of the kiddie warriors complaining and whining that they want more hp, and better ac, and all the other uberCRAP disciplines and whatnot.

    But the real warriors understand that would be ******** up your precious matrix of spreadsheets and class nerfing that you like to do.

    All we really want is decent agro control, as that is "supposed" to be what we were for.
    RE: What is this CRAP??
    # Nov 22 2003 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
    you hit it man...Taunt is the key...although a bit more hp and ac for a warrior wouldnt hurt also seeing how a SK can get into 8khp unbuffed area.
    Nice try...but no cigar
    # Nov 21 2003 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
    Ok look at it this way.

    The Warrior was designed for one thing...to tank. That is the only thing we should be able to do better than anyone else, yet that is currently not the case. Its been said before and I'll say it again just in case SoE is reading this, they can get a general consensus...

    Warriors need a way to establish taunt early and to hold it.

    SK spear line and Paly stun spells allow to initially gain taunt and consistantly hold it throughout the fight. I belive this was already mentioned earlier in the post, but I think it was a good idea. Give warriors a small nuke...a clickable BIG *** hit. Just something that makes the mob notice you. Put a 2-3 minute timer on it so it can only be used once per serious pull. Then just increase the modifier on the taunt key...this will let warriors keep the agro.

    HP/AC improvements
    In all honesty, I dont believe this is really needed. Just get your AA's. With the ability to hold taunt, the bonus that warriors already have to AC/HP, however modest it may be, should be enough to reastablish them as main tank.

    DPS
    Again, A warriors job is to take the damage not to deal it. If we are going to be more defensive it means that we have to allow other classes to be more offensive. So DPS may need a tiny boost if anything, but no major overhauls.

    As for the upcoming combat changes
    I personally think they are neat. This will add a litte more interactiveness in a melee fight. It beats hitting the attack key and going all but comatose (other than pounding one or two keys over and over and over and...) for a few minutes. That being said...I hope SoE doesn't consider this class balancing for melee. I honestly dont see this as a drastic improvement for melees...not in comparison to a caster nuking at least, it just makes melee a little more versatile. And anyone who thinks that this evens warriors with the hybrids is just inane.

    Long story short.
    I'm all for the new changes. I think they will add variety to an otherwise mindless task, but this will not address the problems with melee, specifically with warriors.

    Messer Manaleech
    Myrmidon of Tallon Zek
    2 cents
    # Nov 21 2003 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
    Played a warrior for 2 1/2 years.
    Playing a monk currently--about 2 years on him.

    These changes look like they might be promising--for monks and rogues. (I'm not holding my breath, though.) I'd like my monk to have a little higher DPS. I'd like him to have a little more stability in combat, too. Of course I'd like him to be a viable puller again, but that's just fanciful thinking--paladins using lull will always be favored over monks using FD.

    But for a warrior--these changes seem to completely avoid the problem.

    SKs and PALs can both grab mob aggro a) immediately, b) fairly permanently, and b) from a distance.

    Warriors can mash taunt 15 times and hope the Shaman/Chanter etc. who just got aggro lives long enough. They cannot begin taunting until the mob enters camp--the best they can do is add themselves to the aggro list by firing off arrows.

    So warriors a) give up the ability to fight effectively outside of a group, b) ability to permanently grab aggro, and c)ability to quickly grab aggro for what--
    a semi-mythical increase in ac/hp/dps? As was stated before, warriors get more ripostes than other tank classes do, which essentially wipes out thier ac/hp lead; warrior dps is similarly not significantly higher than Knight DPS, as SOE says it is. (I'd be willing to bet SK dps is greater than if not equal to War dps in any matter.)

    If SOE seriously wants to fix the matter, warriors will need a ranged burst taunt that grabs aggro immediately. Refresh times can't be long, as a long refresh time would defeat the purpose. At the same point, it can't be lasting aggro, partly a)because SKs and Pals specialize in "locked" aggro, and ganking them isn't productive either, and b) Immediate, permanent aggro defeats and trivializes content.
    An ability that grants Top of the Hate List +50 but drops the +50 off after 10 seconds, refresh time 30 seconds, 60 range (or something in that vein) seems appropriate. War only skill, of course.
    Then give wars an additional 5-10% hp/ac. Should tidy things up.
    Certainly better than random openings that require a livel of twitch play would, at least.
    RE: 2 cents
    # Nov 21 2003 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
    A warrior-only AA that grants a 2%, then 5%, then 10% increase to agro, working like the SK spell and our Elemental BP, would be the thing I'D like to see. The % progession in this theory is borrowed from the HP increasing AA and doesn't move beyond the SK spell line. Therefore, it is feasible. That is what I'd like to see, but this patch looks promising. And why would we need extra AC and HP? The AC isn't worth crap in PoP and most of the pallys and SKs I know don't have much more, and sometimes even less, HP than me. And I am no twink. What us warriors need is better Taunt holding. Oh, and by the way, it's permanent agro holding that gets me, the time the mob slips away is later in the fight usually. This new patch looks promising. Quit ******** about it and wait for the patch, then complain all you want.
    #REDACTED, Posted: Nov 21 2003 at 5:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) few things on posts here..... for 1, no one said this will be mandatory. you DO NOT HAVE to hit the new skills when the time opens up, if you want to sit there and just /target mob, attack on, rinse and repeat for all pulls - no one will force you to use the new system. heaven forbid you have to do any more. we cant hit a button every now and then to DO MORE DMG/stun/increase agro which is what everyone always wants right?? ever hear of having to actually work for a reward?
    RE: .....
    # Nov 22 2003 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
    the point of the matter is, warriors can't tank if they can't get aggro, thus making them pointless.
    A hybrid should NEVER be better at tanking and being a "meat shield" than a warrior, because that is the sole purpose of them to take damage.
    The point of this update (i think) is to make melee combat less mind-numbing.
    As it is, melee combat is at the point where you could hit "q" and simply leave.
    This patch makes it so that you have to stay and watch for "openings" in your opponents attack. Just like in real sword fighting.
    How successful do you think a knight in the middle ages would have been if he swung his sword the same way every time?
    He would die very quickly.
    I agree with NeferetiD when he says that it is usually at high levels when warriors lose their usefulness.
    I for one don't want to have to worry about mana, spells, etc.
    I want to feel safe just running up and getting into the middle of the battle.
    That way i don;t have to run just because my "meat shield" cant get aggro on a mob.
    If you feel differently, well thats why there are casters.
    One thing that was missed in this update, however, is one simple fomula:
    TAUNT=AGRRO
    It is as simple as that, that would solve most problems with warriors. Period.

    Edited, Sat Nov 22 03:09:21 2003
    RE: .....
    # Nov 21 2003 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
    Me thinks you are missing much of the argument here. Go read the Steelwarrior boards friend.

    http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4109

    There are some discrepencies between the tanking classes with the warrior class on the short end of the stick. It's not a he has she has argument as much as it's a fact that groups are beginning to prefer hybrids over warriors. Not that I agree 100% with the tactic to get it addressed but...

    As for playing another class. That might work for some personalities and playstyles, but when you've sunken years of your time into a character, you typically would like to see the usefulness of it in a group\raid setting.

    Nef
    me no like!
    # Nov 21 2003 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
    This is perhaps the stupidest thing that I have ever heard.

    First I will start with things that I personally think should be improved as I have grown to love my underpowered Warrior!
    1) I /agree with all the warriors/melee class players that play melee for the fact that you can sit there and relax and not have to worry about your stupid mana.
    2) I /agree that something has to be done with warriors to make them better or equal to Shadowknights and Paladins.
    a. Increasing the amount of hit points a warrior has would be nice. (Like maybe an AA class ability like “Abundant Health” that gives you like 10%, 25%, 50% increase in hit points.)
    b. Increasing the amount of Armor Class a warrior has would also be nice. (Once again AA class ability could be created like “Abundant Armor Class” that gives you like 10%, 15%, 20% increases in armor class.)
    c. As for aggro possibly give us another AA class ability increasing the amount of hate Taunt produces. Or just fix taunt so that it is easier for us to hold the monster if we are mashing the hot button key assigned to ‘Taunt’. (This would greatly cut down my monthly expense of buying new mouse and keyboard to play EQ.)
    3) As a side note I also /agree that when a warrior produces a critical hit it should be more than a normal hit like possibly twice as great as a normal hit, my normal hits range from 60 to 120 per weapon with both of my 1HB weapons therefore I would think that a critical should hit for at least 120 to 240… it truly disappoints me when I hit for an average of 80dmg per weapon and then I see a critical hit (48) or (65). (I am not sure if critical hits do this or not but they should also help increase the anger a mob has towards a warrior.)

    Things that I dislike about this “New Idea” are:
    1) How many bugs is this going to produce?… the most recent patch (the one that added the “New Targeting System”, has me Client Side crashing every time I log off of one player and then switch to another character on the same account then when I click on something in the game I Client Side crash and then enjoy 15 mins of 1018 error HELL! (And yes I have contacted customer support and all they have me doing is messing around with system files thinking (hoping) something will magically fix this problem… I also have the targeting ring turned off along with the n00b message that appears in yellow letters)
    2) This wrecks the fun of playing a mindless character like a warrior who basically plays the role of “Hulk Smash”…lol

    Sorry for what might appears as whine fest 2003. But hey these problems need to be addressed and solutions considered.

    That is all!


    Edited, Fri Nov 21 03:47:16 2003
    RE: me no like!
    # Nov 26 2003 at 10:03 AM Rating: Default
    50% hp increase ??? /boggle

    yes, lets give warriors a 50% hp increase and while we are at it lets give druids a 94% res, give rangers the ability to wear plate, and give knights dual wield.

    im going to say that a 50% hp increase is the worst idea ive EVER heard. jeez... that would give many warriors WELL over 15000 hp raid buffed...

    if we are going to start pulling unbalanced crap like that, i want to give my ranger 3 times the mana pool and a 1000 hp heal, that way i could jump in to the heal rotation.

    50% hp increase... /boggle again...

    sorry for the flame, its just that you blew my mind....
    RE: me no like!
    # Nov 27 2003 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
    50% increase is just a suggestion it doesnt need to be that much but truth be told pally's and sk's are not that far behind warriors if they are PoTime equipped and there STA maxxed out. I personally think that yes a warrior should be able to have 15000hp unbuffed but some new AA skill to increase hp by even 10% would be nice... 50% isnt as juristic as a druid with a 94% rez btw...lol :)

    FYI there are some plate pieces a ranger can wear, however the equipment does not have the best stats...

    Edited, Thu Nov 27 03:37:27 2003
    Wars
    # Nov 21 2003 at 1:12 AM Rating: Default
    Look you guys I am a 54season pally (ouch) yea I know this is the furthest thing from your mind and what you want to hear, however: Your gaining a skill 2 to be exact that are warrior based only!!! Talking about not having anything your gaining already! To add to this they are trying to change it so that warrior are comming up online with us pallies n sk's and even surpass us, as for the grouping problem i have no clue as to what your talking about as I always have 2 warriors in my group with me along with a wiz,or mage and a cleric as being a pally I do alot of single pulls and don't need an enchanter, Wait i'm getting off track:: shut up, stop ********* and let these guys try to help! stop flaming them before you even see the result! instead enbrace it if ya don'tesults after they come out then send them a dayum message saying so, but don't goo shooting it down before it even takes off!!!!
    Short & Sweet
    # Nov 21 2003 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
    *
    99 posts
    Put all the warrior dics on individual timers, as well as a way to determine, per disc, how long until it refreshes.

    And please, NO TWITCH!! If we wanted a twitch game, we would play a twitch game!
    RE: Short & Sweet
    # Nov 21 2003 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
    *
    99 posts
    Addendum:

    This proposed combat system sounds remarkably like the "styles" combat system used in Dark Ages of Camelot (DAoC).

    This is not DAoC. If we wanted to play DAoC, we would. But this is EverQuest. We want to play EQ, not DAoC.

    SOE: If anyone is reading this post, please consider what you are doing! DAoC was built on the engine you are proposing (or close enough to it). Do NOT make the mistake of thinking you can re-invent the wheel with an already existing game! Do it in EQ2 if you must, but leave EQ alone! Fix the current problems, don't go making new ones.

    To quote someone in a previous post, don't use EQ as a guinea pig for EQ2.
    RE: Short & Sweet
    # Nov 21 2003 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
    Have you noticed t hat they already borrowed something from DAoC? You now respawn with all your gear and no xp loss while under lvl 10. That was in DAoC before it was in EQ. And you know what? If something works well in another game, and Sony finds a way to port it into EQ, more power to em. I play a warrior and I know for sure that holding Taunt is one of the hardest things to do. But you have to realize that Stun is ++agro. These abilities would constitute an extra agro producing attack, in theory. I say lay back and wait for the patch to come out. Then we can all flame away (and if I see a pally or SK whining about where their "balancing" is, I'm gonna kill them).
    Melee Combat Breakaway Roll
    # Nov 20 2003 at 11:47 PM Rating: Default
    My 2 cents.

    As I see it, several aspects of the game system have developed that have unbalanced the primary aspect of the melee class, to hold a mob in position. Its frustrating to see a STR60 mob just pass through a STR200 Warrior like they can just walk through walls. I see a resolution that would consider a heavy modifier for STR and a lesser modifier for DEX/AGI when passing within melee combat range to breakaway from combat. I don't see the need for a modifier for each specific class, because stat usage is diferent for each class. A Palidin could potentially have the same modifier as a Warrior, but is less likely because they will have additional points in WIS. As mobs advance, their stats advance, which would apply a direct counter to the ability. I don't think a level 20 Warrior should be able to hold an IG in place, but they should be able to hold a orc centurion in place. Its one thing to have the ability to identify a potentially larger threat, its another to bypass a veretan warrior who is trying to stop you from doing it.

    Wardin
    An idea
    # Nov 20 2003 at 11:33 PM Rating: Default
    You know, could just make it where the warrior never misses. Will increase DPS and hate generation without insanely overpowering them. Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good answer.
    Turn off
    # Nov 20 2003 at 11:28 PM Rating: Default
    I have both a pally and a warrior post 50 and for what its worth, everyone here is right, my pally can out tank my warrior any day of the week, but thats old news. The real problem with this new system is that if they implement it, i'm gonna sell all of the gear off my warrior and my pally and play a druid and a necro. Why? Cause sometimes i get lag, and that would defeat the entire puepose of these new skills.... whats the point in having a one second chance to do more damage or whatever if you see it four seconds after it happens and it takes another three seconds for the server to realize you reacted.

    Secondly: We play melee classes so we don't have to worry about mana or extra skills, or more things than we want to. We play melee because they are just there to beat things up. Its a simple job to do, and it should be a simple job to play. I don't want to have to spend the next three months getting my skills in this new system up and have to do TONS more work per battle to make it useful. Just make pure melees do their stuff better, without making us learn how to play a whole new class. And to those of you who doubt, that is whats going to happen.... yeah, we all know how to play a rogue, or a warrior, or a monk, whatever it is we play NOW, but after this, what exactly is your class gonna be? Cause it sure as heck isn't a pure melee anymore. We are going to have to do more work per fight than any three casters combined.

    Third: How the hell are we supossed to two box effectively now?

    Someone answer me that.....
    Melee changes
    # Nov 20 2003 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
    I agree with the earlier post that recommended fixing criticals so that they always did at least the maximum damage of a normal hit. There is nothing more annoying to be hitting a mob for 150 dam at a time and then see that you have done a "critical" hit for 60 damage.
    Damage bonuses for warriors weapons should also be increased so that a warrior using the same weapon as a hybrid with the same stats could out damage that hybrid. OR maybe a delay bonus so a warrior (who is supposed to have greater skill with a weapon) can swing it just a little faster.
    I also agree that the aggro mitigation should be fixed, but not to the point where a single taunt would pull a mob off a character. Maybe a system that gives spells a high initial hate rating to the mob that drops after a specific amount of time. i.e... melee tanking a mob and a wizard nukes the mob..the mob runs to wizard and whacks him a few times till hate for him fades and he returns to attacking the melee who is highest on his hate list.
    On armor class, maybe melees should get an armor class bonus on items similar to the damage bonus on weapons. Hybrids should get a small % increase to AC of each item (5% or so) and pure melee should get a larger % (10%? or maybe even 15)
    Yet another item on my list of annoyances..missing for several swings in a row. It is very aggravating to see "you try to hit %t, but you miss" 5 or 6 or even 10 times in a row. A missed swing should increase the chances of a successful one on the next swing and keep increasing until a blow lands, and the reseting back to its initial level to start again.
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