First, I assume that many will view this with a reply already forming in their mind before they even read. I do not support what Yantis does. I commend Allakhazam for his stance on the issue. This post is not about right and wrong, because that has been hashed over a hundred times.
This is a political topic, and as such, many things are assumed and passed as dogma that are simply not true. It is valuable to make a distinction between the valid points of argument and those that are fabricated or exagerrated to support the valid points.
The amount of platinum in EQ will continue to increase, whether someone sells it or not. The net effect of the legitimate players farming plat far outweighs any effect that Yantis and co. can have.
We must remember that for each platinum piece that is farmed, there must be a buyer, or it is worthless. Think about your circle of influence. Think about your guildmates, your friends, and yourself. What percentage of your wealth was purchased from EBay or PA? This number is likely very small. For myself, the number is negligable. If the number is 10%, then you can't blame PP sellers for more than 10% of the economic trouble.
The economic effect I exert in other ways is far greater than buying platinum, although noone will scorn me for it. I farm plat and items to buy things for friends and guildies. I'd say I've went through about 200kpp in this manner. I've done everything from buying haversacks for Christmas gifts to buying drogmors for clerics I group with regularly. I am generating wealth for the purpose of disbursement to those who have not legitimately earned it.
While the plat dupe bug did upset the economy for a short time, that is the only significant time that regular players could see a noticable effect from Yantis and crew. Plus, if Y did not exist, it would upset the economy anyways.
It is simply impossible for a couple hundred people farming plat "illegally" to drastically offset the tens of thousands of people that farm plat as a course of their daily play.
A pair of BOFS now cost 100k, just like it did six months ago.
Again, the economy has not been messed up by Yantis and crew. This is evident by the fluctuation of prices from server to server. If Yantis was the dominant factor, then prices would be much more static across the board. Also, prices are expected to climb as more people generate more income from normal game play.
Normal people doing normal things in normal gameplay VASTLY overpowers Yantis' influence. A pair of BOFS now cost 100k, just like it did six months ago. Pop released and level 61 spells cost 1k. Now they cost 50p. Valorium rings were 15k, then they were 5k, and now they're 10k. This is affected by the popularity of PoV... not Yantis or Satan.
2 Years ago, I got about 30-200p worth of loot from a 4 hour session. Now I average about 5k from a 4 hour session. How many people are in the same boat as me? Could a hundred thousand people tripling their in game income have an economic effect. Of course.
I have no doubt that some people will disagree with individual points in this post, but the overlying theme remains. What Yantis is doing is wrong, even a little more wrong than powerleveling your friend, giving your alts loot they could not have got on their own, using a friends cleric to rez or buff yourself, giving your wife 20k to go on a bazaar shopping spree, giving newbies a damage shield which trivializes the formative levels, etc, etc, etc... but Yantis has NOT ruined the economy in EQ.
The EQ economy is healthy, as far as economies go. The amount of plat in circulation from Yantis can not affect the economy in a significant way without the use of exploits.
Sinaerre
65 Chanter
The Rathe
P.S. Someone posted that Yantis' crew farmed items just to destroy them and increase demand. Just think about that for a while. Its silly baseless nonsense. Just because someone is on your side on an issue, you can't let propaganda slide by uncommented.
P.S.S I hope Yantis gets stranded on a desert island somewhere with no internet connection and is forced to eat coconuts and converse with monkeys for all eternity... but he's not ruining the economy.
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- Yantis is not ******** up the economy
Yantis is not ******** up the economyFollow
Yantis is a burden on the EQ economy. But he is not downfall of it. The biggest issue with the economy was that about a month ago there were tons of exploits that let the avrage fool make 1000's of plat fast. With 100's of people doing this it done more damage to the economy than yantis ever could. Many of these exploits were even posted on public forums so everyone knew of them.
Another issue is that EQ is 4 years old. That's 4 years of 1000's of people farming items. Those items never leave the economy, unless somone quits the game and doesn't give away his loot. Same with plat. There is not nearly enough outlets to get plat out of the economy compared to the amount that is comming into the economy. The casino was designed to filter alot of this money out and it did a good job until they removed it.
There are alot of reasons the EQ economy is having issues. Yantis is one of them, but he is not the only one, or even the worst one. In my opinion him selling accounts is worse than him selling plat. If I were to buy a level 65 warrior off of him and I tried to group with somone how long do you think the group would last? Not long at all I have no idea how to play a tank even though I have a 64 druid. High level toon who doesn't know how to play their class is much worse than a twinked out level 45 toon.
Another issue is that EQ is 4 years old. That's 4 years of 1000's of people farming items. Those items never leave the economy, unless somone quits the game and doesn't give away his loot. Same with plat. There is not nearly enough outlets to get plat out of the economy compared to the amount that is comming into the economy. The casino was designed to filter alot of this money out and it did a good job until they removed it.
There are alot of reasons the EQ economy is having issues. Yantis is one of them, but he is not the only one, or even the worst one. In my opinion him selling accounts is worse than him selling plat. If I were to buy a level 65 warrior off of him and I tried to group with somone how long do you think the group would last? Not long at all I have no idea how to play a tank even though I have a 64 druid. High level toon who doesn't know how to play their class is much worse than a twinked out level 45 toon.
Yantis has collecters on every server, but he tends to concentrate his collection efforts on the older servers. Particularily my server, Bertoxxulous. In doing so he and his minions lock many people out of lucrative camps on a near constant basis. For that alone I dispise him.
The EQ economic model is flawed, because there is no real mechanism for inflation adjustment. As people retire and leave the game, they often take pieces of mid to high range droppable equipment with them, in case they ever come back, but their Platinum usually makes it back into the market. This means you have a continually escalating inflation problem, one that grows much faster than the influx of new players.
You do have a point, but you are forgetting one important aspect here. It's not a "few hundred" players doing this, it's closer to around 2 thousand across all the servers. The economic model certanly needs to be fixed, but in order to do that someone needs to take Jonathan Yantis down.
The EQ economic model is flawed, because there is no real mechanism for inflation adjustment. As people retire and leave the game, they often take pieces of mid to high range droppable equipment with them, in case they ever come back, but their Platinum usually makes it back into the market. This means you have a continually escalating inflation problem, one that grows much faster than the influx of new players.
You do have a point, but you are forgetting one important aspect here. It's not a "few hundred" players doing this, it's closer to around 2 thousand across all the servers. The economic model certanly needs to be fixed, but in order to do that someone needs to take Jonathan Yantis down.
but kao who other then sony has a chance ?
I won't go into a lecture on fiscal and monetary economics, but in any economy there are entities that have the ability to generate money (not print money...but rather generate it). We typically see this with banks. A depositor takes $1000 and places it into the bank. The bank turns around and gives a customer a $1000 loan at 9.9% interest. The customer takes that loan and pays a roofing contractor $500. The roofing contractor needs a new power saw and pays $250. In the chain of events the original $1000 has changed multiple hands and economically had the effect of $1000 + $500 + $250. It's as if $1,750 was put into the economy from the original $1000 deposit.
Because the money supply will always increase (even under static activity of no money ever being printed/farmed into the economy), inflation normally happens and we see higher prices as the community's money supply begins to increase. In a normal economy all goods and services slowly increase in price, everything from a loaf of bread to a new car. Here is were EQ has a big flaw...
Although the Bazaar vendors have a dynamic economy and will change their prices in accordance to inflation and the money suppl, EQ has no built in dynamic to slowly increase the NPC vendor's prices as inflation and the money supply slowly increase. We humans know there is more money and inflation in the economy, but the computer NPC players continue to charge the same buying/selling prices year after year. I'm sure your grocery bill isn't the same in 2004 as it was back in 2000. Why would an NPC vendor be selling everything at this same price...doesn't make economic sense.
The reason behind the static vendor prices is simple...complexity and lazyness. Verant would need to somehow figure out what the annual inflation rate is for a market basket of goods on each server, and then adjust all prices (on everything) per this rate. This is a very complex activity (normally requiring polling data), and it is just easier to ignore the problem and keep everything the way it is. That firebeetle eye will always be sold to a vendor at 1sp, instead of 1sp + 3 cp.
I will 100% agree that recent fraudulant activies had an impact on the econmy, particularly on a micro-economic level. Activities of Yantis do increase the money supply, but other legitimate activities also increase the money supply. On a macro-economic level inflation and the money supply has never been address...and probably won't be by Verant.
Because the money supply will always increase (even under static activity of no money ever being printed/farmed into the economy), inflation normally happens and we see higher prices as the community's money supply begins to increase. In a normal economy all goods and services slowly increase in price, everything from a loaf of bread to a new car. Here is were EQ has a big flaw...
Although the Bazaar vendors have a dynamic economy and will change their prices in accordance to inflation and the money suppl, EQ has no built in dynamic to slowly increase the NPC vendor's prices as inflation and the money supply slowly increase. We humans know there is more money and inflation in the economy, but the computer NPC players continue to charge the same buying/selling prices year after year. I'm sure your grocery bill isn't the same in 2004 as it was back in 2000. Why would an NPC vendor be selling everything at this same price...doesn't make economic sense.
The reason behind the static vendor prices is simple...complexity and lazyness. Verant would need to somehow figure out what the annual inflation rate is for a market basket of goods on each server, and then adjust all prices (on everything) per this rate. This is a very complex activity (normally requiring polling data), and it is just easier to ignore the problem and keep everything the way it is. That firebeetle eye will always be sold to a vendor at 1sp, instead of 1sp + 3 cp.
I will 100% agree that recent fraudulant activies had an impact on the econmy, particularly on a micro-economic level. Activities of Yantis do increase the money supply, but other legitimate activities also increase the money supply. On a macro-economic level inflation and the money supply has never been address...and probably won't be by Verant.
48 posts
I agree with everything said here. Many people on this board blame Yantis for the 10k pricetag of their new toy that they think should only cost 2k. In almost all cases, this blame is misdirected.
I also believe that adjusting vendor prices cannot have as large an effect as needed. The nature of EQ is that material value of goods in circulation increases while there is zero actual system cost for the collection of those goods.
As an enchanter, I do not rely on vendor bought items to generate wealth. There is no supply chain for me farming spectral parchments. If I had to buy my mana from a vendor, then cost controls would be possible, but vendors are very rarely a part of any supply chain I rely upon. My cost of doing business is zero, and therefore immune to cost controls put in place by verant.
The only way to fix this is to give me a cost of doing business. Make me buy my mana. Make my equipment degrade and need repair from vendor bought items. Then, once I am raliant upon the vendors that Sony controls, adjust prices to affect fiscal change.
Also, though flawed, the simple fact that platinum has significant real world value in USD is an indicator that EQ has a vibrant economy.
Also, also, also, most of the really lucrative camps have always been occupied on a near constant basis. Remember fg in lower guk? That wasn't Yantis. NE camp in PoV is almost always occupied... I LOVE that camp. Instanced dungeons are the solution to this, and thank you Sony!!
I also believe that adjusting vendor prices cannot have as large an effect as needed. The nature of EQ is that material value of goods in circulation increases while there is zero actual system cost for the collection of those goods.
As an enchanter, I do not rely on vendor bought items to generate wealth. There is no supply chain for me farming spectral parchments. If I had to buy my mana from a vendor, then cost controls would be possible, but vendors are very rarely a part of any supply chain I rely upon. My cost of doing business is zero, and therefore immune to cost controls put in place by verant.
The only way to fix this is to give me a cost of doing business. Make me buy my mana. Make my equipment degrade and need repair from vendor bought items. Then, once I am raliant upon the vendors that Sony controls, adjust prices to affect fiscal change.
Also, though flawed, the simple fact that platinum has significant real world value in USD is an indicator that EQ has a vibrant economy.
Also, also, also, most of the really lucrative camps have always been occupied on a near constant basis. Remember fg in lower guk? That wasn't Yantis. NE camp in PoV is almost always occupied... I LOVE that camp. Instanced dungeons are the solution to this, and thank you Sony!!
Anonymous
OK, just my own thoughts on this issue. If the economy is increasing the prices, and you can no longer afford the items you want, then LOOK AROUND!!!!! Very often there are items in the bazaar that have as good, or even better, stats than the item you are looking for, and because they are not widely recognized by name, they go for very cheap.
Now, that said, one question...
Where the HE#% do you get 5k from 4 hours of gaming, Hammerjk? I have a 55 pally, and the BEST I've ever done was 1500pp in 4 hours! PLease, enlighten me!
Now, that said, one question...
Where the HE#% do you get 5k from 4 hours of gaming, Hammerjk? I have a 55 pally, and the BEST I've ever done was 1500pp in 4 hours! PLease, enlighten me!
It's not hard to farm 5k worth of goods to sell in the bazaar in 4 hours or less. I know of one thing in particular that sells very fast is relatively easy to farm and I get 5k worth of it off of 1 C3 which is only around 3 hours 15 minutes. I have done it many many times to get all of my lvl 60+ spells. It's knowing where to farm and how. Class also makes a big diffrence. Caster classes usually have the upper hand on farming. Classes that can track even more so. you have to know what's in demand and what sells. I'll give you a hint though. There is a refrence to my little farming gold mine on the site posted in my signature. Check it out you'll be happy you did if you can find it. :) It shouldn't be hard.
The problem with the economy is not how you get it it is simply a lack of ways of spending it that will never have it returning to the economy. When luclin came out the made horses and this fixed the problem quite a bit and once the economy had been stregthened a bit (But not enough) They changed it so you could sell your horse back. The tribute system for the enxt expansion is a simmilar things. Your going to be able to pay a person in your home town for skills and abilities with cash and therefore remove even more money form the economy. Also there was the new casino which returned item rewards more than cash. Sony has been trying to fix the economy for the last little while I guess noone noticed.
48 posts
I solo in HoH and PoV NE camp. Both are very lucrative. I get about one Metallic Liquid in PoV every 4 hours (Conservative estimate) which sells QUICKLY for 5k. I can make em into a ring and get about 9k.
In HoH Northern shrine, I usually get about one spectral ever 3 hours. Those usually sell mq for about 6k on my server pretty easily.
Anyhoo, I've got other places, but those are the easiest two.
Sinaerre
65 Chanter
The Rathe
P.S. Today, in 6 hours in HoH I've gotten 2 spectral parchments... right on schedule =P
In HoH Northern shrine, I usually get about one spectral ever 3 hours. Those usually sell mq for about 6k on my server pretty easily.
Anyhoo, I've got other places, but those are the easiest two.
Sinaerre
65 Chanter
The Rathe
P.S. Today, in 6 hours in HoH I've gotten 2 spectral parchments... right on schedule =P
Quote:
Where the HE#% do you get 5k from 4 hours of gaming, Hammerjk? I have a 55 pally, and the BEST I've ever done was 1500pp in 4 hours! PLease, enlighten me!
my necro makes about 1k per hour in rathe mtns and has since level 49 (new pet rocks!) . a 55 pally probably can't do that , but i'll bet a 60 pally could , and many other classes can at even lower levels .
48 posts
On another note, I don't think Sony has done a bad job at keeping the economy within reasonable levels. I quite agree with Darkuwa in that they have been trying.
They cannot have a stable economy over time with these fixes, however. You can repair an economy by wiping out all the money, for example, but it's a temporary fix. The casino run close to a fix, but it is tertiary in that only a select crowd will spend money there. The horses were good, but again, temporary, because I only need one =). A stable economy must have some sort of consumable that devours a significant portion of generated income by design. Once you integrate this into a system, then it can act as a monetary control.
As far as patching the problem (because a true fix at this point is extremely difficult to devise) Sony has done pretty well, and will continue to do well.
Sinaerre
Blah blah blah
Edited, Sat Jan 10 00:21:30 2004 by hammerjk
Edited, Sat Jan 10 00:21:46 2004 by hammerjk
They cannot have a stable economy over time with these fixes, however. You can repair an economy by wiping out all the money, for example, but it's a temporary fix. The casino run close to a fix, but it is tertiary in that only a select crowd will spend money there. The horses were good, but again, temporary, because I only need one =). A stable economy must have some sort of consumable that devours a significant portion of generated income by design. Once you integrate this into a system, then it can act as a monetary control.
As far as patching the problem (because a true fix at this point is extremely difficult to devise) Sony has done pretty well, and will continue to do well.
Sinaerre
Blah blah blah
Edited, Sat Jan 10 00:21:30 2004 by hammerjk
Edited, Sat Jan 10 00:21:46 2004 by hammerjk
Quote:
Where the HE#% do you get 5k from 4 hours of gaming, Hammerjk? I have a 55 pally, and the BEST I've ever done was 1500pp in 4 hours! PLease, enlighten me!
As a conservative estimate I can make an average of 2K an hour in Acrylia Caverns farming acrylia, camping the two named near zone in and selling all the runes and weapons that drop.
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