Love Story 2:Moe and Nobby
An ocean seperated them, their thinly concealed homosexual angst brought them together This compelling love story coming to a forum near you!
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Samira wrote:
I wouldn't be particularly in favor of fire fighters racing into a power plant and quenching the fire there, just because "that's what they do", and their actions within a narrow definition of their purpose must be supported at all times. Would you? Of course not; you want them to fight the fires that need to be fought.
Ok. But imagine that these firefighters are in that powerplant putting out the fires for 3 years.
Would you put a bumpersticker on your car saying: "I support the firefighters", when you don't agree with what they're doing in that powerplant?
Get it yet? When people do things you don't want them to do, stop supporting them. It's as silly as saying "I hate Walmart, but I buy all my stuff there cause it's cheaper then anywhere else in town".
Just as moronic IMO. It's a bumpersticker protest.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
If they were ordered to do so as part of their job, and if having signed up for that job they had no recourse but to obey those orders, I'd continue to support them and throw out the raving fools who gave the orders.
Get it yet?
Get it yet?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
gbaji wrote:
Would you put a bumpersticker on your car saying: "I support the firefighters", when you don't agree with what they're doing in that powerplant?
Or you could come up with a comparison remotely similiar. Samira's worked because she makes the simple point that supporting a person does not always equal supporting the circumstances of their actions. Supporting firefighters =! supporting fires. Supporting soldiers =! supporting wars. If you're going to try to turn that into a direct comparison of Iraq and coal furnaces, you're going to have to try harder than "Gee! What if they're there for three years?"
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
On the subject of supporting (or not) the brave troops... some quotes i dug up from people far more eloquent than I.
And if theres anyone here who has fallen for the B/S from that supporting the troops, means keeping them 'over there' heres a final one...
I'd be pretty amazed if anyone still believes that Iraq was a threat to anyone, let alone the US. And seeing as how the bill of rights is being comprehensively mangled in the pursuit of this war, I do wonder about the 'patriotism' of said persons...
In connection to the OP,
And I think that 'Nationalists' are probably the ones who want this war to continue at 'whatever the cost', to preserve their own sad sense of superiority.
To truly 'support' the troops, it would seem to me to be the 'patriotic thing to do, would be to demand their re-patriation, removing them from harms way....
Its a really fuctup armchair warrior who believes he is supporting a soldier by keeping him in harms way.
Edited, Thu Apr 6 03:42:33 2006 by paulsol
Edited, Thu Apr 6 03:44:30 2006 by paulsol
Quote:
Man has no right to kill his brother. It is no excuse that he does so in uniform: he only adds the infamy of servitude to the crime of murder.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley
~Percy Bysshe Shelley
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A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
~Edward Abbey
~Edward Abbey
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"War will cease when men refuse to fight."
~ F. Hansen
~ F. Hansen
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"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." --
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
And if theres anyone here who has fallen for the B/S from that supporting the troops, means keeping them 'over there' heres a final one...
Quote:
There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.
~General Smedley Butler
~General Smedley Butler
I'd be pretty amazed if anyone still believes that Iraq was a threat to anyone, let alone the US. And seeing as how the bill of rights is being comprehensively mangled in the pursuit of this war, I do wonder about the 'patriotism' of said persons...
Quote:
That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
~Theodore Roosevelt
~Theodore Roosevelt
In connection to the OP,
Quote:
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
~Edward Abbey
~Edward Abbey
And I think that 'Nationalists' are probably the ones who want this war to continue at 'whatever the cost', to preserve their own sad sense of superiority.
To truly 'support' the troops, it would seem to me to be the 'patriotic thing to do, would be to demand their re-patriation, removing them from harms way....
Its a really fuctup armchair warrior who believes he is supporting a soldier by keeping him in harms way.
Quote:
How is it possible for people to consider themselves supporters of the troops when they approve of an event that throws those troops into...peril?
~Ramman Kenoun
~Ramman Kenoun
Edited, Thu Apr 6 03:42:33 2006 by paulsol
Edited, Thu Apr 6 03:44:30 2006 by paulsol
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
I'm a bit too tired to read through the full thread (its 4 am and I've been going at this paper for 9 hours now, so cut me a little slack). I personally feel that nationalism is basically the pride one takes in their country, to whatever extreme they choose to take it. For instance, I am proud to be an American. However, I do not believe we have a right to nation build, or destroy the lives of hundreds of thousands of people so that a rich little boy can get more oil money - be he our leader or not. Some people feel otherwise. Nationalism is a spectrum of support/devotion for one's country, and respecting the popular culture/society of the nation.
Patriotism can be grossly anti-nationalistic. For instance, Peter the Great of Russia was quoted as stating "I will drag this country into the modern world, kicking and screaming if I have to." This is a patriotic statement. Patriots are people who often realize what is best, when the majority refuses to remove their blinders. That's the way I see it anyways.
Best way i've ever heard it summed up... "Patriotism never meant blind obedience." Whereas nationalism, to an extreme, can mean blind obedience.
I hope that makes sense. I'm gonna get back to this paper now.
Patriotism can be grossly anti-nationalistic. For instance, Peter the Great of Russia was quoted as stating "I will drag this country into the modern world, kicking and screaming if I have to." This is a patriotic statement. Patriots are people who often realize what is best, when the majority refuses to remove their blinders. That's the way I see it anyways.
Best way i've ever heard it summed up... "Patriotism never meant blind obedience." Whereas nationalism, to an extreme, can mean blind obedience.
I hope that makes sense. I'm gonna get back to this paper now.
Who should I feel OK to be proud ......
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no. pride is one of the seven deadly sins. and by deadly, i mean the kind of death that causes you to loose your soul, not just your life.
pride. patriotism. nationalism. all political tools to get you sheep to swollow whatever they are trying to sell you. tools of evil to controll your actions and thoughts.
there is right and wrong. period. shades of grey are where politicians thrive to pull you into their dark world of mind control and influence.
you should have pride in God, and nothing else. killng for country is killing. it is wrong, unless it is in self defence. deep inside we all know that, that is why politicians try to convinve you attacking a defenseless country, like iraq, to further some political agenda is somehow related to self defence. all to get you sheep to swollow the party line and relinquish YOUR power to them.
proud? how about sin? they are the same word. we all have an inherant sence of right and wrong. evil will try to twist their desires into that sence of right and wrong to get YOUR power.
mind controll. crowd controll. sin. evil. that is where pride leads.
there is right and wrong. pride, patriotism, nationalism are the tools politicians use to drag you from the right into the wrong.
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no. pride is one of the seven deadly sins. and by deadly, i mean the kind of death that causes you to loose your soul, not just your life.
pride. patriotism. nationalism. all political tools to get you sheep to swollow whatever they are trying to sell you. tools of evil to controll your actions and thoughts.
there is right and wrong. period. shades of grey are where politicians thrive to pull you into their dark world of mind control and influence.
you should have pride in God, and nothing else. killng for country is killing. it is wrong, unless it is in self defence. deep inside we all know that, that is why politicians try to convinve you attacking a defenseless country, like iraq, to further some political agenda is somehow related to self defence. all to get you sheep to swollow the party line and relinquish YOUR power to them.
proud? how about sin? they are the same word. we all have an inherant sence of right and wrong. evil will try to twist their desires into that sence of right and wrong to get YOUR power.
mind controll. crowd controll. sin. evil. that is where pride leads.
there is right and wrong. pride, patriotism, nationalism are the tools politicians use to drag you from the right into the wrong.
Quote:
I put that kind of statement in the same catagory as when people say "I support the troops, but not the war". It's the kind of thing people say because it sounds good, makes them feel like they're sensitive and in tune with their inner child or something, but ultimately makes no sense and is a semantic cop-out.
Ok thats flat out wrong... I have many close friends in the various military branches and support them and their units.
BUT I do not like Bush or the war and don't think we should be listening to an illiterate asshat, much like you.
Oh and by the way gbaji... GFY
Subrosia wrote:
[quote]
Oh and by the way gbaji... GFY
Oh and by the way gbaji... GFY
Aww, gbaji isn't a bad guy, he just has wierd opinions and loves being the devil's advocate :)
Sometimes he even cuddles!
I've been away for two months and G'baji is still acting like a Twat, guess some things never change.
If any of you Patriots are in London in July, HMS Ocean will be on show in all it's Glory, come along i'll give you a tour.
Long live the Queen.
If any of you Patriots are in London in July, HMS Ocean will be on show in all it's Glory, come along i'll give you a tour.
Long live the Queen.
Subrosia wrote:
Ok thats flat out wrong... I have many close friends in the various military branches and support them and their units.
Really? What do you *do* to support them?
I'll give you a hint. If all you do to support someone is say "I support X", then you aren't *really* supporting them. If you really support someone, somewhat by definition, you are aiding them in what they are doing. And if what they are doing and have been doing for the last 3 years is something you disagree with, then despite all your proclaimations to the contrary, you are supporting what they are doing.
Now. If by "support" you really mean: "I'm making a meaningless statement that'll make me feel better about myself while not actually commiting to any course of action", then yeah, I suppose you can support the troops but not the war they are fighting.
Quote:
BUT I do not like Bush or the war and don't think we should be listening to an illiterate asshat, much like you.
Fine. Then don't support Bush. Don't support the war. But to do that, you kinda have to *also* not support the people who are fighting that war. You can't separate "troops" in your mind here. We have an all volunteer military. What percentage of those "troops" you claim to support do you think agree with your position on the war? Do you support them too? Maybe you just support troops who don't agree with the war? Ok. I can buy that. But that's probably not what you think you mean when you utter the phrase "I support the troops".
It's just that I see a lot of phrases that get slung around so often and by so many people, and I have to wonder how many people actually ever bother to stop and think about what the things they are saying actually mean. I really do believe that most people just parrot stuff that sounds good. You read the whole "I support the troops, but not the war" on a bumpersticker somewhere, thought "Gee. This sounds like a great saying", and have used it ever since. But it honestly makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's just innane drivel invented in order to convince people that they can be activists without actually taking a full position, or following the logic of their position.
Kinda like when Nobby says "Hey. I'm a patriot. Cause that's good, right? But that nationalism thing. Well, that's bad, so I'm opposed to it...". Silly. It's a backhanded way of trying to play both sides of an issue, without really taking a position at all. You either absolutely hate nationalism and all it stands for, and therefore also hate any nation-state (can't separate the two), or you don't. You can't claim to love your country, but hate the things that define it. That's just bizarre...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
I love these times when Gbaji is painted into a corner and no one from either side of the proverbial aisle on the forums agrees with him but he just keeps going and going and going....
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
gbaji wrote:
I can't tolerate ambiguity, therefore it doesn't exist!
/nod
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
What I DO to "support the troops"
1) I neither resent them nor allow them to be belittled in my presence
2) I respect them for doing their jobs, and understand that they are not responsible for the fact that they have been sent to die on behalf of a lie
3) I support efforts to get them the equipment they need to do their jobs in the utmost possible safety and have no objections to my tax dollars going to such a cause
4) I resent, on their behalf, the fact that our government has sent them out to die for an unworthy cause
5) I maintain a firm belief that the administration and commander in chief responsible for the lies which have led to the deaths of thousands of these troops should be held criminally responsible for those deaths
6) I exert what influence I have as a voter and a taxpayer to BRING THE TROOPS HOME SAFELY AND SOON
What I do in NON-SUPPORT of the war
1) I exert what influence I have as a voter and a taxpayer to END THE WAR (see #6 above)
2) I protest the war whenever possible and make every effort to puncture the fiction which has been built in support of the war
3) See #5 above
There you have it, Gbaji. It is, indeed, possible to support the troops without supporting the war. I do it every day of my life. It's not a platitude, it's reality. Mature people who understand that issues do not come conveniently pre-packaged in shades of black and white get that. Obviously, you're not one of them.
1) I neither resent them nor allow them to be belittled in my presence
2) I respect them for doing their jobs, and understand that they are not responsible for the fact that they have been sent to die on behalf of a lie
3) I support efforts to get them the equipment they need to do their jobs in the utmost possible safety and have no objections to my tax dollars going to such a cause
4) I resent, on their behalf, the fact that our government has sent them out to die for an unworthy cause
5) I maintain a firm belief that the administration and commander in chief responsible for the lies which have led to the deaths of thousands of these troops should be held criminally responsible for those deaths
6) I exert what influence I have as a voter and a taxpayer to BRING THE TROOPS HOME SAFELY AND SOON
What I do in NON-SUPPORT of the war
1) I exert what influence I have as a voter and a taxpayer to END THE WAR (see #6 above)
2) I protest the war whenever possible and make every effort to puncture the fiction which has been built in support of the war
3) See #5 above
There you have it, Gbaji. It is, indeed, possible to support the troops without supporting the war. I do it every day of my life. It's not a platitude, it's reality. Mature people who understand that issues do not come conveniently pre-packaged in shades of black and white get that. Obviously, you're not one of them.
I think some of you have a misconception of what the military is and what it's mission is.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
DamthebiTch wrote:
I think some of you have a misconception of what the military is and what it's mission is.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
The military is only for killing and destruction eh?
Odd...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces
"The Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes" and that "land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained."
"Japan's Basic Policy for National Defense stipulates the following policies:[6]
1. Maintaining an exclusive defense oriented policy.
2. To avoid becoming a major military power that might pose a threat to the world.
3. Refraining from the development of nuclear weapons, and to refuse to allow nuclear weapons inside Japanese territory.
4. Ensuring civilian control of the military.
5. Maintaining security arrangements with the United States.
6. Building up defensive capabilities within moderate limits."
Edited, Fri Apr 7 03:21:23 2006 by trickybeck
Quote:
I think some of you have a misconception of what the military is and what it's mission is.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
The Military (any military) kills people en mass and breaks things. Everyone in the military either kills people and breaks stuff directly or acts in support so that the killers can do their job more effectively. Thats the mission of any military. It's what they train for every day of peace time.
So unless you support the killing of people and the destruction of things you dont support the troops, since thats what they do.
I have however done three sets of disaster relief and arrested a couple of drug runners and 1 arms smuggler. Maybe i've been lucky but to say that the military is purely there to kill people is a total falicy.
If anything the British armed forces are trained to minimise casulties through powerful targetted raids to remove command level personnel leaving a demoralised, leaderless and in most cases conscripted opponent who will kindly give in and allow us to win with minimum bloodshed.
Look I was a Marine for 13 years, my wife is a Marine, has been for 10. My Brother is a Marine for 10 as is my cousin for about the same amount of time. Im pretty sure I have a good grasp of what the US military's primary mission is.
That is to make war. That's not to say that the military isnt used for other things during peace time and even war time. However the primary mission of the Military is the kill people and break things.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you have STS Missles or STA missles on your boat? If so why? What would you need those for to accomplish disaster relief or drug interdiction?
That is to make war. That's not to say that the military isnt used for other things during peace time and even war time. However the primary mission of the Military is the kill people and break things.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you have STS Missles or STA missles on your boat? If so why? What would you need those for to accomplish disaster relief or drug interdiction?
Quote:
Do you have STS Missles or STA missles on your boat? If so why? What would you need those for to accomplish disaster relief or drug interdiction?
no we have no offencive weaponary on HMS Ocean as we are a Captial ship (Landing platform Helecopter) Our primary function is to insert a landing force and act as "mother ship".
On previous ships i have had such missles but none have even been fired in anger, so to say that the sole reason for the military is to blow things up just because America does is a falicy.
Fine it's a ship. Sorry we call ship's, boats as a figure of speech. I realize you're not riding around in ski boat. Though you knew what I was talking about dont be a ****.
So the primary mission of your ship is to act as a landing craft for offensive helo's, Correct? Thats why it was buit. That's it's primary mission. I never said only mission only primary. So I was correct in my statement that all people in the military either directly kill people and destroy things or act in support of those that do as their primary mission, right???
The fact that you have never been on a ship that has fired STS or STA missles in a wartime situation doesnt mean that they werent built for that very reason, and the ships you were on werent built for that very reason as well.
I own a 9mm pistol for home defense. Thank God Ive never had to use it to harm anyone but that doesnt mean that it's primary use isnt just that. It's why I bought it.
So the primary mission of your ship is to act as a landing craft for offensive helo's, Correct? Thats why it was buit. That's it's primary mission. I never said only mission only primary. So I was correct in my statement that all people in the military either directly kill people and destroy things or act in support of those that do as their primary mission, right???
The fact that you have never been on a ship that has fired STS or STA missles in a wartime situation doesnt mean that they werent built for that very reason, and the ships you were on werent built for that very reason as well.
I own a 9mm pistol for home defense. Thank God Ive never had to use it to harm anyone but that doesnt mean that it's primary use isnt just that. It's why I bought it.
I'll give you a hint. If all you do to support someone is say "I support X", then you aren't *really* supporting them. If you really support someone, somewhat by definition, you are aiding them in what they are doing.
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do you support your child? how about when he is robbing a liquer store? do you "aid" him? or would true support be more on teh lines of helping him stop doing something destructive to himself and otehrs?
we "supported" our trops and our country in vietnam when we rose up to stop the stupidity. another situation when some "NON MILITARY " political suites decided when our best would be sacrificed and why they would be sacrificed.
supporting our troops would be doing what we can to get their ***** out of a political agenda that is slowly killing them for NO GOOD REASON. not "aiding" them in continuing it.
gbaji,s mindset is exactly the type of sheep mentality this addministraition wants to beat in your head. its ok to die if some politician says you should.....while their kids are going to ivey league schools and will NEVER even sign up for guard duty.
you ARE supporing your troops by trying to stop them from being killed doing a political police action in a country that DOES NOT want us there.
our military are trianed to kill, not police. this addministraition is setting them up like sitting ducks in a shooting gallery, NOT to save this country from harm, but to push a political agenda that has NOTHING to do with the protection and security of this country..........all the while, letting the people who ARE a threat to this country roam around afganistan and continue to stage large scale attacks on the people we are SUPPOSED to be supporting there.
impeach his ***** the Brits did less to us and we tossed them out.
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do you support your child? how about when he is robbing a liquer store? do you "aid" him? or would true support be more on teh lines of helping him stop doing something destructive to himself and otehrs?
we "supported" our trops and our country in vietnam when we rose up to stop the stupidity. another situation when some "NON MILITARY " political suites decided when our best would be sacrificed and why they would be sacrificed.
supporting our troops would be doing what we can to get their ***** out of a political agenda that is slowly killing them for NO GOOD REASON. not "aiding" them in continuing it.
gbaji,s mindset is exactly the type of sheep mentality this addministraition wants to beat in your head. its ok to die if some politician says you should.....while their kids are going to ivey league schools and will NEVER even sign up for guard duty.
you ARE supporing your troops by trying to stop them from being killed doing a political police action in a country that DOES NOT want us there.
our military are trianed to kill, not police. this addministraition is setting them up like sitting ducks in a shooting gallery, NOT to save this country from harm, but to push a political agenda that has NOTHING to do with the protection and security of this country..........all the while, letting the people who ARE a threat to this country roam around afganistan and continue to stage large scale attacks on the people we are SUPPOSED to be supporting there.
impeach his ***** the Brits did less to us and we tossed them out.
gbaji wrote:
Really? What do you *do* to support them?
I try to prevent them from dying. What do you do, bake them cookies?
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