PatriotismFollow

Way to bust out wikipedia!! You got me beat.

When you try to trim the vague bits of a concept down to a fairly narrow definition, it's generally going to seem a bit odd. A bit like saying Christianity is simply about a guy who liked catering dinners being stuck up on a cross.

Most words usually are going to have their meanings change over time and at times develop into something quite diffrent than what it's original meaning might have been.

Fun website if you're into that.

Edited, Mon Apr 3 17:50:25 2006 by Vensuvio

Patriotism is about the citizen, and their love for the country; Nationalism is about the country, and its love of being held in a greater regard than any other nation.

If we were discussing relationships, nationalism would be the jealous ***** who doesn't want you to have any friends - she should be the only person you ever need to hang out with.

Patriotism is the love of your country as pertaining to yourself within your borders.

Nationalism is the love of your country as pertaining to yourself outside of your borders.


In other words, if I go and stand on the corner of my city and start preaching about how great American is, it's patriotism; if I go to London and start preaching about how great American is, that's nationalism.

Lol! Yeah. Because these two entries are soooo much not like eachother...






Do you see how patriotism is completely contained *within* the definition of nationalism? It's definition is exactly identical to one of the definitions of nationalism. In fact, they're listed as synonyms in many of the online sources I checked.


Now, if Nobby had used the term Jingoism rather then Nationalism in his OP, he'd have been more accurate. But whatever...

They become a lot more dissimilar when you bold the relevant text, dumbass.

Its ok, though. No one really expects you to admit that you jumped on the wrong horse with this one. But we all know you did and continuing to argue the point doesn't make you look smarter.

Kinda depends on how you look at subsets.

Nationalism includes:
- Love of country
- Believe in a set of "commonalities that defines "nation" (ie: culture, language, ethnicity, etc).
- Believes that their country is better then other countries (generally because of the above commonalities).

Patriotism includes:
- Love of country


Thus, it's correct to say that patriotism is a subset of nationalism. Let me caveat that. There's nothing that says you can't have love of country outside of nationalism (intersecting sets if you will), but assuming one is a patriot, and is living in a modern "nation-state" (which does match Nobby's conditions, right?), then it is absolutely correct to say that one's patriotism is a subset of one's nationalism, even if they don't personally believe it.


Now maybe Nobby is some true out-there thinker, and is a patriot for reasons having nothing to do with the structure, history, and other commonalities of the country he happens to live in, but I find that unlikely. He professes to love his country. A country that is defined by the very nationalism he *claims* to despise.

So. Either he's a bit nutty, or he doesn't really understand what nationalism is. I gave him the benefit of the doubt...

How humble of you sir.

I'm not going to reiterate Moe's succint observations, but I feel a tad smug at my prediction in the OP of your inability to discern between connotation and denotation.

I love my country (patriotism) but fall short of feeling any superiority (nationalism).

The point's been made.

You, I am sure, will miss it by 90 degrees.

Now head off back to justifying torture and jingiosm, there's a good chap. Keep that dictionary and random highlighter pen handy.

Huggles

You just provided proof of Nationalism being a subset of Patriotism. It's been a while since I've taken a logic class but mathmatically you go broad to narrow.

Holy Cow! Do I have to define sets and subsets now?

A set that consists of "A", is a subset of a set that consists of "A, B, and C".

Patriotism is "love of country". Let's call that "A".

Nationalism is "love of country" (A), "Belief in a set of commonalities that define that country"(B), and "Belief that those things make that nation "better" then other countries"(C).

Patriotism is "A". Nationalism is "A, B, and C". Thus, Patriotism "may be" a subset of nationalism. It could also be an intersecting set (since in this case, we've not proven that *all* of A is contained within Nationalism), but we can absolutely say that nationalism is *not* a subset of patriotism, and that the intersection of patriotism and nationalism is completely a subset of nationalism.


My argument is that since Nobby lives in a modern nation-state, the things the define his country *are* nationalist ideas. A common culture, history, etc, that "define" what being a citizen of the UK is. Thus, unless he's somehow daft and is patriotic purely because he happens to like the design of the Union Jack or something, he must be patriotic *because* of the things that define being a UK citizen, and those things *are* what makes it a nation-state and *are* exactly what nationalism is.

If he were a fervent follower of the Knights Templar for example and thus owed his allegence to some Papal State he could be patriotic without also being nationalist (because his love isn't for a nation-state but for a non-nationalist power structure). But, unfortunately for Nobby, and despite the wonderful semantics of his statement, it is quite imposssible for him to be patriotic but not also a nationalist.

Edited, Tue Apr 4 18:30:56 2006 by gbaji

Oh, I understand the statement perfectly. I also understand *why* people say it. It makes them feel better. But I also understand that the statement is false and makes not a lick of sense.

It's like saying you support your child's soccer team, but you don't like the game of soccer and you don't want your team to win. Or you support chefs, but don't like it when people cook food for other people. Or you support Disneyland, but don't like themepark attractions.

It really is meaningless semantics. Nothing more. It's a symptom of our braindead permissive "don't ever question or critisize" society, in which we can "support Johnny", but not like what Johnny is doing. That's ridiculous. If you don't like what someone does don't support them. And that goes double for soldiers. If you dislike war that much, grow a pair and take a stand. Don't be all wishywashy and try to pretend that you can somehow support troops while undermining and opposing the very real tasks that they perform every day. That's just ridiculous.

Just like I FUC[Cornflowerblue][/Cornflowerblue]KING HATE GREENDAY.


but really, the music isn't too bad. but still

I think the New England Patriots are going to have a tough 2006 season, what with the substantial loss of veterans and key players through free agency this offseason. But Bill Belichick is telling the Patriots to stay the course, be optimistic, and victory will come. The dynasty will rise to the top once again.