Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 4 5 Next »
Reply To Thread

DubyaFollow

#102 Jun 08 2004 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
Quote:

So a detainee is protected from torture by the convention. If by not torturing him to get the information he has jeapordises the security of the occupying force, then that's a protecton that he can lose at the discretion of said occupying force.

Incorrect.

There's zero reason to include that last paragraph if that's the case. The only reason to include it is to expressly prevent the abuses you're citing as sanctioned by the conventions, which they are clearly not.

Not maybe, not it's a matter of oppinon, not there's merit to both sides of the argument, they're not. That's what this:


In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

exists for. If you need to deprive someone of communication with the outside world, fine. If you need to deprive him of some specefic privlidge, like access to council fine. If you need to do that to protect your nation, ok.

When whatever great peril he poses end, however, you grant him the full rights and privlidges and at trial he has the same rights as anyone else, and he must be treated with humanity, allways. Hence the specefic enumeration of In each case such persons will nevertheless be treated with humanity That can mean nothing other than "We know you want to, but it's not ok if you start torturing even the most vile people."

Not confusing. Straight forward. Alla is a lawyer, have him or anyone with a law degree take a cursory glance at it and they'll tell you the same thing regardless of political affiliation. There's zero wiggle room, by design.

This is why the White House has three breifs explaining how to avoid the convention completely, at Ashcrofts orders. If the Convention worked as you state there would be no need to bother with that, as toturing people how met the conditions would be just fine.

Fortunately, that's not the case.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#103 Jun 08 2004 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Ok. But we've not defined "torture" here either. Can we accept that you can legally interrogate a prisoner if you believe he's got information vital to your security?


Having accepted that, what methods of interrogation are "humane"? Can I keep him awake for 30 hours? Can I take his buddy into the next room and create noises that make it sound like he's being tortured to death? Can I take pictures of him naked with his head covered and then show it to the buddy next door and imply that he'll get something horrible if he doesn't talk? Can I hook him up to a box that looks a hell of a lot like an electric torture device and threaten him with it?


I'm just curious where your definition lies Smash. What methods are legal and what aren't? I don't want to hear: "I don't know, but I know that raping people isn't!". That's a bogus answer. I've acknowledged that rape and molestation are not legal. But is taking a picture of someone strapped to an eletric box an illegal form of interrogation? I want you to define what is and is not "humane". Then, show me some international document/law/whatever that supports your position.


It's really easy to bandy terms like "humane treatement" around when you haven't defined what exactly that is. Your idea of humane may very well not match the rest of the worlds definition.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#104 Jun 08 2004 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Ok. But we've not defined "torture" here either.


I would personally rather have a President that waffled on the definition of "sex" with an intern than one who waffled on the definition of "torture" of an innocent "detainee".

Thoughts?

sixsixfive
Neighbor of the Beast
#105 Jun 08 2004 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
There's an international standard for this, you know.

Torture is a crime agains Humanity in the world court. They define it in this compilation of documents thusly:


No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In particular, no one shall be subjected without his free consent to medical or scientific experimentation.


Well that's pretty clear. No sewing twins together or grafting extra genitals onto peoples faces or seeing how smallpox responds to aftershave or whatnot.


For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.


There's a couple of intresting points here. The wether physical or menat part is pretty important in answering your question. Clearly the World Court would say hooking someone up to a fake electric chair or whatever would qualify as torture. Also the or intimidating or coercing him or a third person is important. I can't show you a picture of dead cousin Abdul, to coerce you to cooperate. The catch clause at then end is there expressly to point out that this document doen not limit other documents which may have a wider definition of torture. Note there is no such provision for a documents having a more limited definition. In law we would call this clause "controlling." Hence the quotes from the documents to follow are "controlled" by The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of 1984. (here and after "84")

Anyway, there's more.

In a couple of ducments controlled by "84" there are some specefic enumerations of what qualifies as torture. Remeber they are controlled by "84" and thus can only widen it's definition but not narrow it.


1.The perpetrator inflicted severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon one or more persons.

2.Such person or persons were in the custody or under the control of the perpetrator.

3.Such pain or suffering did not arise only from, and was not inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

4.The conduct was committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population.

5.The perpetrator knew that the conduct was part of or intended the conduct to be part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population.

(…)

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:

(…)

(e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

(…)


Some specefics in there, but again, bear in mind they are controlled by the scope of "84" and do not exempt any part of that document due to their speceficity. This document is enumerating the qualifications for the Crime Against Humanity of torture.

Article 8 enumerates the conditions for the War Crimes of Torture and Inhumane Treatement.

These articles are the presice reason the Geneva Convention issue exists at all. For Torture to qualify as a war crime, the GC comes into play. For it to qualify under "84" it merely needs to meet the definition, but a definition without teeth is less frightening than a defintion that could lead to a war crimes tribunal, even an in absentia one for US political or Military leaders would be an embarassment.


War crime of torture

Elements

1.The perpetrator inflicted severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon one or more persons.

2.The perpetrator inflicted the pain or suffering for such purposes as: obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation or coercion or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind.

3.Such person or persons were protected under one or more of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

4.The perpetrator was aware of the factual circumstances that established that protected status.

5.The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict.

6.The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict.



Article 8 (2) (a) (ii)-2

War crime of inhuman treatment

Elements

1.The perpetrator inflicted severe physical or mental pain or
suffering upon one or more persons.

2.Such person or persons were protected under one or more of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

3.The perpetrator was aware of the factual circumstances that established that protected status.

4.The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict.

5.The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict.

The Gitmo interrogation techniques meet all elements excepting, of course, numbers 2 and 3 as applies to the GC. In practice here's what not torture:

Sleep deprivation cause by other than physical means (in other words not dripping water on someones head or putting them in a tiger cage for a weeek). Lying. Deception. Time shifting. Drugs that don't do physical or psychological damage and don't qualify as experimenation. Valium would be ok, Windex would not. Light deprivation. Isolation if it includes food and water and waste removal. Questioning for any length of time which does not cause physical harm. 72 hours fine, three weeks, not fine. IMPLIED but not THREATENED physical harm. "I'm not sure what will happen to you if you don't cooperate. I don't want to think about it, it turns my stomach" NOT "I'll cut your nuts off if you don't talk." Bullbaiting. Reward systems, ciggerettes, better food, whatever, for cooperating.

There's more non torture techniques, but I don't want to turn this into Interrogation 101. Polygraphs and whatnot are of course fine.

Probably the worst thing about "hard intterogation" techniques that I would classify as torture, the fake electirc chair and whatnot is that they're just not any mroe effective.

An experienced perons to person psyops operator can break ANYONE without resorting to those methods. ANYONE. I don't care what their level of fanatisicsm is. There's just no ROI to using harsh techniues except as a punative measure or as an example to a third party where there is some minimal value.


That clear enough?


Edited, Tue Jun 8 23:39:39 2004 by Smasharoo
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#106 Jun 09 2004 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
No one's ever responsible for ANYTHING in the Bush administration. No matter how badly a decision turns out, he will never admit to an error, or more importantly show the flexibility to correct a problem.


That's not true. Rumsfeld actually held himself accountable for the photos of prison abuse, but of course the administraton didn't do anything about it. Got this from another board, I thought this was funny:

"I propose that we have a national Be Accountable Like Don Rumsfeld Day. Basically, you can do whatever you want. Kick old ladies, rob, cheat, steal, lie, whatever - don't matter. But you *do* have to say that you accept responsibility for what you've done. Don't worry, though, there are no consequences to saying that! You don't have to ... do anything! It'll be awesome!"
#107 Jun 09 2004 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Nice post Smash. I agree that the "hard techniques" don't generate any better quality intel then others do (Not that I'm an expert, but every expert opinion I've ever heard on the subject has agreed with that statement, and it does make sense).

We're still left with the issue of how many of the acts commited in that prison were actually "torture".

Walking barking dogs past a group of prisoners is certainly "implied" pain, but not threatended (we can't tell from the pictures whether they were threatened or not, so we can't jump to a conclusion).

Strapping the guy to a box certainly is going to present some mental anguish, but is it "extreme"? Was he threatend with electrocution? Or just strapped up and allowed to let his imagination run? Again. We don't know.


Is piling a bunch of naked prisoners into a pyramid "torture"? I'm not sure if that qualifies as extreme physical or mental pain by anyone's definition.


Of the photos we've seen, I can't think of one right off that is a definate picture of torture as you've defined it. They certainly qualify as violations of "civil rights" (even in the context of GC treatment of prisoners), but again, depending on the classification of the prisoners in question, that particular set of rights may not apply.


So we're left with the photos we haven't seen, which we've heard some descriptiosn of rape and sodomy and other horrible things. Those are certainly violations under any interpretation of the Convention and every applicable international law I know of. However, as I've pointed out many times, we don't know what the numbers are of that type of photo in relation to the type we've seen so far. We don't know if those acts were commited by the same people. We don't know which ones were condoned by some official, and which may have been done independantly. I would assume that those are the types of questions an investigation would seek to answer. All I'm saying is that we should wait for the result of that investigation before jumping to conclusions on our own...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#108 Jun 09 2004 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
There is a cultural bias here. Just as it would be torture to sit me in a room with a Barry Manilow tape loop playing because culturally that's a big taboo for me, for a muslim man to be naked before any woman not his wife is a signifigant deal. Ditto for him touching the flesh of another naked man.

I think both would easily meet the standard. There's clearly intent in the pictures. If the pictures are generating CM's for being outside of what's approved by the Army, and the DOJ has spent time constructung memos sheilding the president from harm for ordering techniques that ARE approved I think it's a tough sell that the behaviour in the pictures doesn't meet the weaker standard.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#109 Jun 10 2004 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
...hors de combat...



What does that mean? Smiley: banghead

#110 Jun 10 2004 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
*
97 posts
Read through most of the posts and got severely pissed off. From a mother's point of view-------

GWB is a dictator puppet, doing what he is told, when he is told, and no questions asked. He 'a a threat to us, to my children, my future grandchildren. Who to say, with all the waves he making, defying the UN, cutting of France, Germany and other technologically advanced countries that my sons will live long enough to see college? Thinking of the Term--Third Antichrist--

Enought of that....
Anyone think that his dear ol dad might be prompting him on the side? Trying to get him to finish what ex-pres Bush could not during the Gulf War?

----------------------------
#111 Jun 10 2004 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
OMG LOL!
#112 Jun 10 2004 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
lenndi wrote:
Anyone think that his dear ol dad might be prompting him on the side? Trying to get him to finish what ex-pres Bush could not during the Gulf War?



Well. I think that's kinda obvious, but not necessarily in the way you are implying. I think that the Republican party in general has had a plank in their platform that included resolving the situation in Iraq ever since the cease fire in 91. There's no real mystery about it, and despite the angry left implying that there should be a connection between 9/11 and Iraq in order to justify the action, the reality is that we likely would have been in Iraq today whether 9/11 happened or not.


I am curious though? There was a first and second Antichrist? Did I miss them? Sheesh! I'm bummed now...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#113 Jun 10 2004 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
Nepolian and Hitler if you're a Nostradamus scholar.

Allthough Bush wouldn't meet any of the whacky 14th century poets criters, but that's never stopped the Nostradamus nuts in the past.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#114 Jun 11 2004 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
**
862 posts
always funny to see people criticize the President....but i guess they can draw from their extensive experience as leader of the free world.... :P

#115 Jun 11 2004 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
Wonder what's more frightening to my children and my childrens children:

Fighting a war on terror on Arab soil or...

Judges getting together and passing vast social change without the consent of their state or national congresses?

Hmmm, blinded by agenda anybody?
#116 Jun 11 2004 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
always funny to see people criticize the President....but i guess they can draw from their extensive experience as leader of the free world.... :P


Criticism is a common everyday thing that happens to everyone. If GWB did not want to be criticized, he should of stayed out of politics. I have never heard of any president that was never criticized, so why should we stop with GWB.

Also there is no leader of the free world. That is just a misconception of several people who think their country runs everything. The world is run more on the basis that everyone is doing what they think is in their best interest. You may end up with several countries working for the same goal, but none will say the other is their leader.
1 2 3 4 5 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 354 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (354)