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#27 Nov 01 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent

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xorq wrote:

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Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

You play Rogue. It has a separate category on the list. It is one of the two categories that is always viable in PvP. It may not always be the best class, but it is always a viable class.

Hunter: MM
Mage: Arcane or Frost
Rogue: Mutilate or Sub
Warrior: Arms or Prot
Druid: any
Paladin: any
DK: Unholy
Shaman: any
Warlock: Affliction or Demo
Priest: Shadow or Disc

Any class had a viable spec in this past arena season that could take them to gladiator. You just needed to not suck.

It's not my fault that I know how to play my rogue and that you have no ******* clue whatsoever how to PvP.

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#28 Nov 01 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good

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Pretty much every spec on that list has a ton options on their comp as well, like if you play death knight then yeah, you pretty much have to go unholy. But you could choose PHD, or shadowcleave or whatever that team is called is with a warrior and pally healer where you get deathgripped into bladestorm. If you play a rogue you can go traditional RMP, or go for a less tactical nuke team like lock shammy rogue.

2v2 is less balanced but then you can't get titles or the best gear from it anyway.

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#29 Nov 02 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good

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BM or SV will take the cake for Hunters in Cataclysm. MM hunters just won't have enough burst to get it done. While silencing shot is nice the other specs provide much better benefits SV especially.

MM might be good in maybe 5v5 if they were able to sit back and silence people and possibly get off enough for a master marksman proc, and chimera shot heal will be OK but I just don't see their burst (in the time of need) being good enough.

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#30 Nov 02 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent

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Hyolith, Hero Among Heroes wrote:

BM or SV will take the cake for Hunters in Cataclysm. MM hunters just won't have enough burst to get it done. While silencing shot is nice the other specs provide much better benefits SV especially.

MM might be good in maybe 5v5 if they were able to sit back and silence people and possibly get off enough for a master marksman proc, and chimera shot heal will be OK but I just don't see their burst (in the time of need) being good enough.

I strongly doubt this. MM is too strong and the others don't provide enough utility to overtake MM.

The only thing I could see is if BM becomes the arena spec for Ancient Hysteria or similar effects.

Then again, if you have a shaman or mage, you have a better effect.

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#31 Nov 02 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Default

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Overlord Theophany wrote:

Any class had a viable spec in this past arena season that could take them to gladiator. You just needed to not suck.

It's not my fault that I know how to play my rogue and that you have no @#%^ing clue whatsoever how to PvP.

Hello again Oldtheo.

I have nothing against you playing Rogue. In fact it is a class I highly recommend for PvP. I do not question your choice of class. I question your experience in engaging in serious PvP with classes that have a constantly changing PvP viability. And I am not referring to last season or next, but to the constantly changing viability from the moment you created the char to the last day you play it.

And nobody cares about "being able to" reach gladiator, we all know all classes "are able to", so, boring argument. Compare amount of effort required for different classes (or different comps in the case of arena) and you have something worth a thought.

In terms of amount of effort required, making your victories be as easy to achieve as possible is considered good strategy, the opposite is considered bad strategy. It is an unquestionable law of strategy. It's written in every strategy treatise worth the paper it's printed on, be it military, finance, marketting, or anything.

Why bring a warrior to your team that has a druid and a shaman when you could bring a warlock instead? Why bring a hunter to a team that has mage and rogue when you could bring a priest instead?

It is your $15/mo. You do whatever you like, picking the FOTM class and/or the FOTM team comp is an actual valid winning strategy that has been proven to work consistently. If I "have no @#%^ing clue how to PvP" then I would be proof that it is in fact a strategy so great that it works miracles and may in fact be the best of all strategies.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 9:26pm by xorq

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#32 Nov 02 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent

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xorq wrote:

I have nothing against you playing Rogue. In fact it is a class I highly recommend for PvP. I do not question your choice of class. I question your experience in engaging in serious PvP with classes that have a constantly changing PvP viability. And I am not referring to last season or next, but to the constantly changing viability from the moment you created the char to the last day you play it.

And nobody cares about "being able to" reach gladiator, we all know all classes "are able to", so, boring argument. Compare amount of effort required for different classes (or different comps in the case of arena) and you have something worth a thought.

Why bring a warrior to your team that has a druid and a shaman when you could bring a warlock instead? Why bring a hunter to a team that has mage and rogue when you could bring a priest instead?

Poor examples, and poorly thought out point by you.

I can give you examples of any comp in any bracket where it would be easy to put whatever class you want in that slot and succeed in any arena season.

Let's put it this way: feral/rogue is roughly equivalent to rogue/rogue. Obviously it depends on how good the players are, but they should be able to do roughly as well.

According to you, rogue is always a "FOTM" class, where feral has never been a sought-after PvP class. Why then, would rogues be willing to take a feral druid as a partner when they can take a rogue?

Seriously, if you think that some classes couldn't get Gladiator; ask me and I'll tell you a comp that that class is perfect in.

Edit: also, rogues were awful in S1 of arena; literally the lowest represented class at Gladiator.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 7:51pm by Theophany

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#33 Nov 02 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent

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Let's put it this way: feral/rogue is roughly equivalent to rogue/rogue. Obviously it depends on how good the players are, but they should be able to do roughly as well.

According to you, rogue is always a "FOTM" class, where feral has never been a sought-after PvP class. Why then, would rogues be willing to take a feral druid as a partner when they can take a rogue?

Rogues and healers are sometimes balanced, sometimes unbalanced, but always very viable.

If you pick for example ret, there's seasons when it's been garbage, seasons when it's been OP, and it's unpredictable how viable it's going to be next season. If you were doing ret consistently it'd be better to go FOTM as soon as ret gets nerfed.

To greater or lesser degree this happens to all the class/specs except healers and rogues.

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Seriously, if you think that some classes couldn't get Gladiator; ask me and I'll tell you a comp that that class is perfect in.

We all know it is "possible" with any class. But why would you bother with "possible" when "possible much easier" is just a matter of switching chars?

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#34 Nov 02 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent

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xorq wrote:

mikelolol wrote:

xorq wrote:

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Any serious PvPer that doesn't have Engineering after this change kinda makes me wonder.

This is how I classify my chars based on how they work on PvP:
1- Healers.
2- Rogue.
3- The FOTM.
4- The Handicap.

Rogue and Healers are always playable in PvP. On those I can be ***** to invest on a profession that will help them in PvP.

The rest of classes switch category back and forth and patches constantly buff and nerf different classes constantly shifting the unfair advantage from one class to another. So if your char isn't rogue or healer then you should switch chars constantly and the additional investment of maxing out engi may be too much.

If you were really serious about PvPing your DK even in seasons when it is a handicap class, sure, but switching to a FOTM class even without a profession will yield a better outcome than maxing out engineering for a Handicap category class.

Do note I don't say this from a perspective of "they's nerfing my class QQ", I'm saying this from a perspective "I have this group of chars, these become bank alts, these will see use this season", and I end up rotating which chars become bank alts as patches nerf and buff stuff.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 12:14pm by xorq

Or you could learn to play your class even when its handicapped, and when they get buffed you'll actually be a good player.

I do not claim to be a great in PvP but I do in fact play a number of classes "decently". And I do play the handicap classes a bit even in the seasons when they are in the handicap category.

So I really really do get to experience the action from both angles, and I have reached the conclussion that it isn't worth it.

Playing a handicap class means you are:
1- not playing a healer.
2- not playing a rogue.
3- not playing a FOTM class.

As result your contribution to the success of your team is inferior to what you would do if you were playing either healer, rogue, or fotm. The unbalance is always present and is always big enough to exceed playing skill by far.

Also, being good at one class every season doesn't make you be good the season it gets buffed. It is also not required in order to be good at it the day it gets buffed.

Sticking to one class season after season regardless of buffs and nerfs just makes you be the guy who keeps whining about the game's imbalance or the guy who suffers from it and just keeps his mouth shut about it.

It does suck having to level and gear one alt after another as patches bring nerfs and buffs. But it is a matter of choice. It depends on what you want from your gaming experience. I don't enjoy much to play the handicap class or to be in a position where I have to lose to bugs, exploits, glitches or poor class balance, or trying to contribute to my team and having significantly inferior results to what I would be getting if I were playing a different class.

Quote:

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

You play Rogue. It has a separate category on the list. It is one of the two categories that is always viable in PvP. It may not always be the best class, but it is always a viable class.

Edited, Nov 1st 2010 6:42pm by xorq

Every class is viable when you are good at it. Rogues aren't as good as you think, I counter them easily and outheal their damage and ruin their vanishes and destealth them easily, anticipate blinds and break them with hand of sac, having played one myself and played against them alot I think you overstate their power. Viable every season sure, but so are lots of classes, I can easily list warrior/dk/mage/warlock/hunter/ele sham as viable in every season just as easily as I'd put rogues on that list. And thats just for DPS. Healers on the other hand I agree with you on, your chances of hitting gladiator are probably higher on a healer and imo healers are a bit easier to play then a DPS.

What I found though was one season ele shamans became the FoTM and my partner crapped all over all the obvious rerolls. There are tiny subtlties about claseses you just dont pick up in a season or 2, it comes from playing like an entire expansion or longer. Just my 2 cents. Like I believe i said in another post I have my paladin cooldowns so memorized I can tell by feel when hand of freedom comes off cooldown so accurately its scary and I dont even watch the cooldown timer. Thats a 25 second cooldown, not something easily memorized. When you have that level of "feel" for your main you will be good at it. When they buff your class, your skill goes into "exponential" mode. But I wouldnt be too proud of getting gladiator as a FoTM, the true test of skill imo is getting it in the seasons when your class is weak.

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#35 Nov 02 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good

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I just don't understand why people throw the phrase "FOTM" around like they do. RMP, Druid/Warrior, Rogue/Priest, Rogue/Mage, etc.. have been a solid enough setup that it's not really flavor of the month.

Being someone that has played multiple classes at level caps, whether current, or past, I can honestly say every class that I'm not playing is OP. Rogues are OP when I'm on my warlock/priest, Druids are OP(depending on spec) when I'm on a different class. Warriors have been dominant in PvP since Vanilla. I remember back when there were titles/ranks, warriors were always represented very well on top of the leader boards.

The bottom line is, good players are going to do well no matter what class they play. If you haven't ever been gladiator on one class, you can't really say that another class is easier to get gladiator with. You can only make an honest assessment by playing to different classes, and getting glad with both.

Hell, I got glad with my old resto druid back in S3, but doesn't mean I can do it with my rogue.

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#36 Nov 03 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good

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xorq wrote:

Rogues and healers are sometimes balanced, sometimes unbalanced, but always very viable.

If you pick for example ret, there's seasons when it's been garbage, seasons when it's been OP, and it's unpredictable how viable it's going to be next season. If you were doing ret consistently it'd be better to go FOTM as soon as ret gets nerfed.

To greater or lesser degree this happens to all the class/specs except healers and rogues.

Hi, what the @#%^ is a class, and what is a spec?

Ret is not a class. Ret is a spec, bro.

If you on the other hand were a paladin, the class that can spec ret, you would have options to spec into holy or prot, allowing you to continue playing your paladin, even if ret isn't a good PvP spec for that season (btw, ret has been good in arena since S3; it got significantly buffed at the end of S4, but there were ret/rogue teams before then).

Oh, and just for the record, rogues haven't been able to just spec into anything and succeed in arena, either. Same with hunters, warlocks, warriors, paladins, death knights, mages, shamans, druids, and priests (druids, paladins, and shamans are slightly different in that most of their specs have been fairly viable in the past few seasons of arena, and druids and shamans had all of their specs at least somewhat viable for most of the time since S1).

In conclusion: BIG BIG BIG @#%^ING DIFFERENCE between SPEC and CLASS. Please learn it before you spout off at the mouth trying to figure out how to PvP.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 11:57pm by Theophany

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#37 Nov 03 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good

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I'm ten posts ahead of the game.

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#38 Nov 03 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent

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Overlord Theophany wrote:

xorq wrote:

Rogues and healers are sometimes balanced, sometimes unbalanced, but always very viable.

If you pick for example ret, there's seasons when it's been garbage, seasons when it's been OP, and it's unpredictable how viable it's going to be next season. If you were doing ret consistently it'd be better to go FOTM as soon as ret gets nerfed.

To greater or lesser degree this happens to all the class/specs except healers and rogues.

Hi, what the @#%^ is a class, and what is a spec?

Ret is not a class. Ret is a spec, bro.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 11:57pm by Theophany

For some classes spec means crossing the role boundaries.

If you were playing ret-healer when it was viable, and by grace of patch ret starts sucking and holy rocks, you're not going respec your pally and go holy+healer. Or if you were doing ret-mage-healer, you're not going holy-mage-healer. When you drop ret you drop the team, and if you weren't looking to play the healer role you drop the pally completely.

You could go ahead and continue to play ret, or switch to healer, if it entertains you worth your $15/mo.

If I had a pewpew char and by grace of patch the tides change I'd just ride on the next wave of unbalanced pewpew chars because that way I'd always be playing the unbalanced pewpew char.

Personally I was always happy to see any teams including paladins on the enemy team because I would almost never lose to them. The arms-holy 2s team was probably the only pally team felt like a strong challenge but that was when playing druid-warlock, otherwise when playing bloodlust teams I wouldn't see pally teams beating me.

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#39 Nov 05 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good

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xorq wrote:

For some classes spec means crossing the role boundaries.

If you were playing ret-healer when it was viable, and by grace of patch ret starts sucking and holy rocks, you're not going respec your pally and go holy+healer.

Try Prot then. The only difference in gear is you would wield a 1hander and shield. You get to still play your class and dps/lock down role in an arena team or BGs.

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