If they are truely deserving. I quit playing PLD awhile ago because all I got were these horrible parties, I did my job, no one else did theirs, as my job was taking the beating I died first. So logically I dropped it.
Now, ever since then I realized I hate tanks that aren't me. But, what I did wasn't really special, in fact, I had a clock work pattern.
-Wait for TASA as needed
-Provoke
-Shield bash or sentinel (alternate between battles)
-Get beat up a little bit (at least lose 200 life)
-Flash
-higher tier cure spell
-provoke
-use flash to provide a safe haven for casting bigger cure spells
Or if I had 300TP I would gain the mobs attention with flash so that I can maintain my full or near full health and stick it with Spirits Within.
Also, after the initial provoke I never moved unless it was to cover someone. Even then I advised people it would be easier for them (if they thought they would take hate) to move behind me for cover.
Beyond that, if you don't have flash up and need to cure, start your spell once a mob hits you, that you utilize their attack delay to get your spell in.
Now of course there are times when a tank needs to give hate up, and that's all well and good but, how can you give up something you don't control.
Over the last few days I've partied with a lot of tanks that aren't me and I gotta say, "What the ****!" What I just mentioned is a pretty solid PLD strategy that anyone could mimic, and it works, it godamn works miracles. I've partied with RNG (prepatch) who after the first fight or two check me and say stuff like, "I don't know what you are doing differently then other tanks but it works." Then they would try to take hate from me, only to be /shocked when they would recieve a /ja "Cover". When I played the job, I didn't think I was doing anything special, I thought I was just doing my job. But when I party with these awful PLD that can't even hold hate with a fight starting with a good 700-900 WS chained to distortion being put on them at the start of the fight it makes me think maybe I was great. Or when I watch so many tanks get the jitters and start runnin' all over the place.
For the love of god, tell your tanks they suck. Tell them to utilize their ******* of abilities to do their job properly. Otherwise I would seriously just replace them or disband. Later on if the tank isn't doing their job all the mob needs is a few seconds with a BLM and their down and out.
This whole thing could go a lot of ways for a lot of jobs. Like RDM that just cast refresh. One of the best parties I was ever in had no RDM or BRD. Valley of Sorrows, hitting chain 6 pretty consistantly with perytons and raptors. Clearly refresh is not needed (unfortunatly I don't remember the exact setup. I think it was WHM, BLM, RNG, RNG, SMN, PLD).
People really need to be more willing to tell someone they suck at playing a job, I mean people are so quick to assume DRG sucks and will gimp xp, but they will allow crappy tanks and RDM to do whatever (or not do whatever) they feel like.
If everyone was a little more judgmental the game would become a better place. Now I'm sure you'd get a lot of, "***** YOU NOOBZORZ I ARE TEH LEETZ WELCOME TO BLIST TOWN POPULATION J00!" Well that's fine, I wouldn't want to party with them agian. But once everyone is willing to tell them they suck maybe they will take the hint when they've Blisted ALL the people in their level range and are in turn blisted by half the server. Logically even they would realize maybe they do suck and they need to refine (or create) a strat.
Now, I'm not literally asking you to say, "HEY MAN! YOU SUCK!" Maybe more of a, "I think I could help you do better with ___ if you would just listen to my advice." Although advice has realistic limits. When someone's gear is a crime against god, there is a monetary limit which you can suggest (certain things are too pricy to be considered practical by average Joe). But things like when to use certain abilities, better macros, even better food options should be offered.
*Jumps on his Karma wagon* TO THE RIVER STYX!
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- Parties, tell your members they suck.
Parties, tell your members they suck.Follow
Genjyuro wrote:
I quit playing PLD awhile ago because ... I did my job, no one else did theirs, as my job was taking the beating I died first.
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
edit: I encourage anyone who disagrees with this to go grab their PLD and go provoke an IT++ Mob. If you don't have a party with you, you will die. The PLDs role in a party is a controlled suicide. You try to kill yourself, and the party trys to stop you. If you wanted to live, you wouldn't voke it off me when I overnuke. Your a moron if you think I acutally met your role in a party in to get killed over and over again.
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing.
I don't know why you are complaining. You realized what being a tank meant and you quit. Maybe others like that sort of thing.
If the party sucks and can't do their job, leave the party. But going aroung telling people they suck is a great way to make enemies and is counterproductive to everyone involved.
Instead how bout this, if your party sucks tell them how to do better. Or make your own partys with people you know (Of course if you go around telling people they suck nobody will want to party with you). Maybe get a static.
Edited, Tue Oct 18 12:46:42 2005 by President
Edited, Tue Oct 18 12:55:33 2005 by President
Quote:
But going aroung telling people they suck is a great way to make enemies and is counterproductive to everyone involved.
I dont think he was doing that...
Quote:
Instead how bout this, if your party sucks tell them how to do better.
I think he was doing just that hence this quote:
Quote:
Now, I'm not literally asking you to say, "HEY MAN! YOU SUCK!" Maybe more of a, "I think I could help you do better with ___ if you would just listen to my advice."
I dont think he was telling them to their face they sucked, just that in general, they did suck.
Edited, Sat Oct 15 02:37:22 2005 by ReyvnAsura
Oh the memories this does bring back. I never hesitate to tell people when they suck, but I usually do so by saying they could do a better job if ____ happened, or if they got ______ for gear instead of the level 1 RSE that they're still wearing at level 30.
But specifically, this reminds me of a THF whose name I forgot, and a warrior named Daimyn. I met both of them while leveling my ninja in the mid-30s.
This THF made me sick; the constant doting her ingame BF would give her every 15 seconds, telling her how awesome she was, couldn't have been a bigger lie. let's just say that after pulling, she'd wait until the WAR/NIN first voker would lose her first three shadows before using SATA. Then she would wait until the mages got hate to engage it. SATA never hit once. When she did land SA, I didn't see her hit for higher than 40 damage very often. I'll attribute that to her level 10 dagger.
Then she doesn't know you can stack SATA to Weaponskills.
They booted me from the party for telling them that we took 15 minutes to kill a 70 exp monster and that they all sucked. Good riddance. I got a better party 15 minutes later anyway.
Daimyn was worse. By a landslide.
level 35 WAR, Great Sword, average gear, no food. I met him once while leveling THF and twice while leveling NIN. The second time we partied he dinged 36.
While leveling ninja, I met him first in a party with a THF who told us he was new at SATA. The THF actually started off crappy but got very good, but I digress. We told Daimyn he was supposed to voke first for SATA because the DRK was a ***** and refused to voke because she claimed she'd die in three hits. Mob gets into view and the DRK makes the biggest noob move I've seen in a while: uses souleater before the monster even gets to camp. Daimyn didn't voke anyway, but it wouldn't have mattered. the DRK had hate most of the fight (But my +7 enmity that I had on my gear let me get hate back after a minute).
DRK ******* at me for sucking as tank. Funny how I never lost hate again the whole party. But I digress again.
Daimyn seems to stupid to understand what we're saying to him; sometimes he does provoke first, but three fights later he forgets and just autoattacks until after I've voked off the mages.
basically, he only vokes after I've started tanking. Not that he could take hate in the first place with all the enmity gear I bought. I swear I did more damage than he did, and got hit for less damage. When we did get SATA off by some freak accident, it was only due to me lining up with the person with hate. This was usually the red mage.
The only thing I heard him say the whole party was "I hate noob. dont u?"
Look who's talking.
He had to leave though, and we got someone else. DRK had to voke first, despite her great fear of getting hit, but she took less damage than Daimyn did nonetheless.
The second time I met him on ninja, I got to camp and saw them all fighting, waiting for them to invite me to replace the tank. I saw this in the text box:
Daimyn reaches level 36!
and I told them I didn't want to party after all. Harsh, I know, but I was doing them a favor. Disbanding and seeking in jeuno is better than partying with him. The rest of my road to 37 was thankfully Daimyn-free.
Next day, on THF, I get a party in the Crawlers' Nest. I run to camp, and when the MNK leaves, they bring me in. Member list:
RDM
THF
DRK
SAM
WHM
Daimyn
The RDM loved Daimyn to death, saying he lived for teaching newbies how to play. He tried to teach him how to play using the nice method of suggestion and encouragement. No matter what happened, though, he never lined up for SATA. I told him to tank, and it just didn't work. Running behind the monster was too complicated for his infantile mind. In fact, he'd get in FRONT of the monster more times than he would go behind it.
After the WHM gets to 36, I promptly tell them that as soon as I level up, I leave. yes, I said that. I was 1.5k to 37 and wasn't about to ***** it.
One hour later, I hadn't leveled up. I checked my exp: 600 tnl.
So I said: ***** that. I'll take my NPC and duo goblins with her until I hit 37. Daimyn has to go again, so we drop him. The RDM says he had never seen a more hopeless cause. No one else is seeking, so we disband.
I leveled THF to 37 the next day (I died later that day during a solo session. I was 35 tnl. I wanted to pull my hair out.)
Upon getting my Fransisca for my Warrior three days later, I stand by the chocobos in upper jeuno to wait for their prices to drop below 200 gil so I can go do some supply quests. Before 5 minutes pass, I see Daimyn again, running into the stables in a level 40 breastplate, with a level 5 great axe strapped to his back. I ran.
Edited, Sat Oct 15 04:00:55 2005 by JmacAttack
But specifically, this reminds me of a THF whose name I forgot, and a warrior named Daimyn. I met both of them while leveling my ninja in the mid-30s.
This THF made me sick; the constant doting her ingame BF would give her every 15 seconds, telling her how awesome she was, couldn't have been a bigger lie. let's just say that after pulling, she'd wait until the WAR/NIN first voker would lose her first three shadows before using SATA. Then she would wait until the mages got hate to engage it. SATA never hit once. When she did land SA, I didn't see her hit for higher than 40 damage very often. I'll attribute that to her level 10 dagger.
Then she doesn't know you can stack SATA to Weaponskills.
They booted me from the party for telling them that we took 15 minutes to kill a 70 exp monster and that they all sucked. Good riddance. I got a better party 15 minutes later anyway.
Daimyn was worse. By a landslide.
level 35 WAR, Great Sword, average gear, no food. I met him once while leveling THF and twice while leveling NIN. The second time we partied he dinged 36.
While leveling ninja, I met him first in a party with a THF who told us he was new at SATA. The THF actually started off crappy but got very good, but I digress. We told Daimyn he was supposed to voke first for SATA because the DRK was a ***** and refused to voke because she claimed she'd die in three hits. Mob gets into view and the DRK makes the biggest noob move I've seen in a while: uses souleater before the monster even gets to camp. Daimyn didn't voke anyway, but it wouldn't have mattered. the DRK had hate most of the fight (But my +7 enmity that I had on my gear let me get hate back after a minute).
DRK ******* at me for sucking as tank. Funny how I never lost hate again the whole party. But I digress again.
Daimyn seems to stupid to understand what we're saying to him; sometimes he does provoke first, but three fights later he forgets and just autoattacks until after I've voked off the mages.
basically, he only vokes after I've started tanking. Not that he could take hate in the first place with all the enmity gear I bought. I swear I did more damage than he did, and got hit for less damage. When we did get SATA off by some freak accident, it was only due to me lining up with the person with hate. This was usually the red mage.
The only thing I heard him say the whole party was "I hate noob. dont u?"
Look who's talking.
He had to leave though, and we got someone else. DRK had to voke first, despite her great fear of getting hit, but she took less damage than Daimyn did nonetheless.
The second time I met him on ninja, I got to camp and saw them all fighting, waiting for them to invite me to replace the tank. I saw this in the text box:
Daimyn reaches level 36!
and I told them I didn't want to party after all. Harsh, I know, but I was doing them a favor. Disbanding and seeking in jeuno is better than partying with him. The rest of my road to 37 was thankfully Daimyn-free.
Next day, on THF, I get a party in the Crawlers' Nest. I run to camp, and when the MNK leaves, they bring me in. Member list:
RDM
THF
DRK
SAM
WHM
Daimyn
The RDM loved Daimyn to death, saying he lived for teaching newbies how to play. He tried to teach him how to play using the nice method of suggestion and encouragement. No matter what happened, though, he never lined up for SATA. I told him to tank, and it just didn't work. Running behind the monster was too complicated for his infantile mind. In fact, he'd get in FRONT of the monster more times than he would go behind it.
After the WHM gets to 36, I promptly tell them that as soon as I level up, I leave. yes, I said that. I was 1.5k to 37 and wasn't about to ***** it.
One hour later, I hadn't leveled up. I checked my exp: 600 tnl.
So I said: ***** that. I'll take my NPC and duo goblins with her until I hit 37. Daimyn has to go again, so we drop him. The RDM says he had never seen a more hopeless cause. No one else is seeking, so we disband.
I leveled THF to 37 the next day (I died later that day during a solo session. I was 35 tnl. I wanted to pull my hair out.)
Upon getting my Fransisca for my Warrior three days later, I stand by the chocobos in upper jeuno to wait for their prices to drop below 200 gil so I can go do some supply quests. Before 5 minutes pass, I see Daimyn again, running into the stables in a level 40 breastplate, with a level 5 great axe strapped to his back. I ran.
Edited, Sat Oct 15 04:00:55 2005 by JmacAttack
President the Silent wrote:
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
With all due respect, no, it most *certainly* is NOT the job of the PLD to die. It is the job of the PLD to manage the enmity of the battle in order to create the safest enviroment for everyone in the party while simultaneously gaining the fastest experience points possible, and if troube arises, to be the last person to zone.
Sorry, but I can't stand when people have this sorley misinformed and somewhat ignorant attitude.
Regards,
Goobs
Edited, Sat Oct 15 04:57:53 2005 by PaladinGoobs
Quote:
President the Silent wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect, no, it most *certainly* is NOT the job of the PLD to die. It is the job of the PLD to manage the enmity of the battle in order to create the safest enviroment for everyone in the party while simultaneously gaining the fastest experience points possible, and if troube arises, to be the last person to zone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect, no, it most *certainly* is NOT the job of the PLD to die. It is the job of the PLD to manage the enmity of the battle in order to create the safest enviroment for everyone in the party while simultaneously gaining the fastest experience points possible, and if troube arises, to be the last person to zone.
Dude, you like, missed the other part of the statement.
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing.
If you combine the two together, it actually pretty much defines how a PLD and his party works together.
Sadly a lot of people in the game aren't to hot on their jobs. I've only taken one job past 37 (WHM at 56 right now) and I kinda found the following (there is a point to all this if you have the patience to bear with me):
Stage 1 - From 10 to around 25:
The Dunes are terrible (but who can expect it to be good when everyone is still learning the basics of their jobs).
Occasionally you get a Korroloka Tunnel, Maze of Shakhrami or Buburimu Peninsula party, these tend to be more experienced groups so they are normally pretty smooth riding.
Qufim Island is also a bit of a hell hole, overcamped, more undead than a classic horror movie and still most people aren't too hot on things.
Stage 2 - From 25 to around 35:
The Jungles can go in one of two ways, literally amazing or darn right awful. It seems some people think they are high level once they are at about 25-30 and suddenly "know everything". This misconception soon dies in Garlaige Citadel ^^
Garlaige is hell mainly due to the zone being crappy.
Altepa parties tend to be excellent, once again because they tend to be more experienced players.
Stage 3 - From 35 to around 50:
I have officially came to the conclusion that Crawlers Nest is satans love child. Why anyone would want to stay here past lv40 is beyond me.
It wasn't too bad to start with (35-40) for me, but for some reason every CN party past lv40 was terrible (worse than the Dunes). I think this is mainly because the only people that would form a party here at those levels haven't got enough intelligence to research better camps, or just couldn't be ***** to get their Altep and Yhoat crystals.
Altepa, Quicksand Caves and Yhoatar parties in these level ranges were all good parties. By lv45 I was refusing ANY party in CN as I became scared of the place and many of the people who were in it.
Stage 4 - From 50 and beyond:
I can't say too much now as I am only lv56 but for me things got a LOT better after 50 and they seem to be getting even better after 55.
I think this is because Limit Break and AF quests really set the men from the "go play WoW" boys, plus the mobs get a lot tougher.
So my point.
Early levels will be crappy, up until 37 will also be a bit ****** as most people levelling subjobs don't give a damn about how to play it.
Later you can start to avoid the crap by being a bit more selective, certain areas (like CN) getting over-done is a bad sign imho.
If someone is lv45 and says "I dunney have teh Altep Crystal" then there is something wrong, I had this crystal as soon as I could sneak-invis through Korroloka and Altepa (so lv20 or 25), I also got the Yhoat one at the same time... and the Vahzl.
I am currently taking NIN through the Jungles, now I don't think I am the best NIN in the world, far from it. It's not for a main job it's for a subjob but I still take it seriously and try to be the best I can be.
Many of the parties I have had on NIN have been good but also many people really had no idea how to work with me. For example at this level when my shadows are out and I am trying to recast them then I need someone to take hate from me. Also without Utsusemi: Ni I am naturally hindered by the recast timers. Sadly most people have no idea of this, frequently I sit there taking a beating waiting for the timer then have to battle with the mandies to get the shadows back up again.
It seems the higher I go the better it gets though, which is my point. Be selective about your parties and remember that as you get higher the incompetant drain away.
Stage 1 - From 10 to around 25:
The Dunes are terrible (but who can expect it to be good when everyone is still learning the basics of their jobs).
Occasionally you get a Korroloka Tunnel, Maze of Shakhrami or Buburimu Peninsula party, these tend to be more experienced groups so they are normally pretty smooth riding.
Qufim Island is also a bit of a hell hole, overcamped, more undead than a classic horror movie and still most people aren't too hot on things.
Stage 2 - From 25 to around 35:
The Jungles can go in one of two ways, literally amazing or darn right awful. It seems some people think they are high level once they are at about 25-30 and suddenly "know everything". This misconception soon dies in Garlaige Citadel ^^
Garlaige is hell mainly due to the zone being crappy.
Altepa parties tend to be excellent, once again because they tend to be more experienced players.
Stage 3 - From 35 to around 50:
I have officially came to the conclusion that Crawlers Nest is satans love child. Why anyone would want to stay here past lv40 is beyond me.
It wasn't too bad to start with (35-40) for me, but for some reason every CN party past lv40 was terrible (worse than the Dunes). I think this is mainly because the only people that would form a party here at those levels haven't got enough intelligence to research better camps, or just couldn't be ***** to get their Altep and Yhoat crystals.
Altepa, Quicksand Caves and Yhoatar parties in these level ranges were all good parties. By lv45 I was refusing ANY party in CN as I became scared of the place and many of the people who were in it.
Stage 4 - From 50 and beyond:
I can't say too much now as I am only lv56 but for me things got a LOT better after 50 and they seem to be getting even better after 55.
I think this is because Limit Break and AF quests really set the men from the "go play WoW" boys, plus the mobs get a lot tougher.
So my point.
Early levels will be crappy, up until 37 will also be a bit ****** as most people levelling subjobs don't give a damn about how to play it.
Later you can start to avoid the crap by being a bit more selective, certain areas (like CN) getting over-done is a bad sign imho.
If someone is lv45 and says "I dunney have teh Altep Crystal" then there is something wrong, I had this crystal as soon as I could sneak-invis through Korroloka and Altepa (so lv20 or 25), I also got the Yhoat one at the same time... and the Vahzl.
I am currently taking NIN through the Jungles, now I don't think I am the best NIN in the world, far from it. It's not for a main job it's for a subjob but I still take it seriously and try to be the best I can be.
Many of the parties I have had on NIN have been good but also many people really had no idea how to work with me. For example at this level when my shadows are out and I am trying to recast them then I need someone to take hate from me. Also without Utsusemi: Ni I am naturally hindered by the recast timers. Sadly most people have no idea of this, frequently I sit there taking a beating waiting for the timer then have to battle with the mandies to get the shadows back up again.
It seems the higher I go the better it gets though, which is my point. Be selective about your parties and remember that as you get higher the incompetant drain away.
We have a great one in my level range right now would you beleive. The guy is so good I refuse to party with him, he's a WHM at level 63. Now get this, he has only one peice of AF, is wearing AGI+ earing etc and has no idea what regen, barspells, hate management, erase or the WHM job is.
For those of you on Seraph in the 60's keep your eyes open for satobo. This is one that we really want to make sure either learns to play or quits. The start of this is buying the right gear, a Kingdom Aketon is not an xp body!
Last party in Boyahda Tree we kicked him on arival when he proved to still not have upgraded his gear. The gimp the harrassed us for about an hour with constant tells saying we muct apologise to him.
May assumption is it's a bought account, some of the gear is quite high value but he could find his @ss with both hands and doesn't know what he has.
For those of you on Seraph in the 60's keep your eyes open for satobo. This is one that we really want to make sure either learns to play or quits. The start of this is buying the right gear, a Kingdom Aketon is not an xp body!
Last party in Boyahda Tree we kicked him on arival when he proved to still not have upgraded his gear. The gimp the harrassed us for about an hour with constant tells saying we muct apologise to him.
May assumption is it's a bought account, some of the gear is quite high value but he could find his @ss with both hands and doesn't know what he has.
Just give them time to learn their job and just do your job well. Doing your job well earn respect and a lot of re-invite again to XP PTY. If they sucks, then their rep will get bad and they get less invite and soon they will have to learn themself and to get better. I find most people in this game don't listen well to advice very well, they have to experiment it to improve themself.
No one is EVER completely perfect at their job. Sometime **** just hit the fan. Like being a PLD when you don't get Refresh when it run out, then BLKMAGE nuke nonestop, everyone doing weapon skill chaining, and MB. You loose hate and with no MP and already use some major hate pulling so it run off to hit the little Taru Blackmage.
No one is EVER completely perfect at their job. Sometime **** just hit the fan. Like being a PLD when you don't get Refresh when it run out, then BLKMAGE nuke nonestop, everyone doing weapon skill chaining, and MB. You loose hate and with no MP and already use some major hate pulling so it run off to hit the little Taru Blackmage.
It is no party member's job to die. Generally there is a member that gets wailed on more than the others, but thats what healers, secondary provokers, and full time hate managers are for.
It is EVERY person's job to manage hate. WHM should not over heal to attract hate, BLM shouldn't over nuke. Tanks should voke regularly and do all that they can. As a 67 WAR, I generally have three primary responsabilities. First is to deal as much damage to the mob as possible, solo as well as skill chains. Second, is to be a secondary tank and get the mobs attention when the tank doesnt have hate anymore. And lastly (and arguably most important) is keeping hate on the tank. Between myself, my SATA parter (if I have one) and the resources I have, I can manage hate pretty well. I can easily get hate onto myself while the SATA goes behind the tank (warcry and voke are really good at this).
Most parties start out slow (and some end that way -.-) but usually I can find middle ground between my style and everyone else's. A cycle usually gets made that works out very nicely and all is well in the end. But yeah, it's nobodys job to die in the party. Die first maybe... but not die. Everyone needs to keep each other alive by doing what needs to be done to win, even if it means altering your own personal style.
It is EVERY person's job to manage hate. WHM should not over heal to attract hate, BLM shouldn't over nuke. Tanks should voke regularly and do all that they can. As a 67 WAR, I generally have three primary responsabilities. First is to deal as much damage to the mob as possible, solo as well as skill chains. Second, is to be a secondary tank and get the mobs attention when the tank doesnt have hate anymore. And lastly (and arguably most important) is keeping hate on the tank. Between myself, my SATA parter (if I have one) and the resources I have, I can manage hate pretty well. I can easily get hate onto myself while the SATA goes behind the tank (warcry and voke are really good at this).
Most parties start out slow (and some end that way -.-) but usually I can find middle ground between my style and everyone else's. A cycle usually gets made that works out very nicely and all is well in the end. But yeah, it's nobodys job to die in the party. Die first maybe... but not die. Everyone needs to keep each other alive by doing what needs to be done to win, even if it means altering your own personal style.
You know, I generally don't care about people being shakey on their jobs before 40. It's not a fair thing to expect. What I refer to is the endless armies that I encounter beyond the 50's that constantly make a mockery of their job.
55WAR/27DRG
-Used a spear, but had an up to date Great Axe. He equipped it for awhile and used Iron Tempest. I cried.
His cohort
55RDM/19WHM
-Maybe cast two spells a battle. Mostly melee'd or went AFK. Also said PLD and BLM don't need refresh.
56DRK/28WAR
-Told the party he was better then them because he had the most AF on. Hear that NIN? Your woodsman rings, Kote, +3 evasion earrings, and other millions in gear don't mean jack compared to a half complete set of gear that is practically useless to that job that was free.
57BRD/7SMN
-Refused to position himself to give different people different spells. In the end everyone got Acc and MP recovery. At least he was an effective carby puller.
56BLM/23RDM
-Didn't have sleep II. Didn't have up to date damage spells. Threw down his stronger damage spells and debuffs as the mob was being pulled in. Yelled at the NIN for being a bad tank.
These are the players that hurt me. How did they make it anywhere without anyone trying to teach them proper utilization of their jobs? Let alone how to dress themselves.
Now the whole thing about me quitting PLD wasn't me complaining about it. More so just an introduction to create a solid foundation for the point I was trying to make. But then again judging from your post you seem to not have read the full thing anyways.
55WAR/27DRG
-Used a spear, but had an up to date Great Axe. He equipped it for awhile and used Iron Tempest. I cried.
His cohort
55RDM/19WHM
-Maybe cast two spells a battle. Mostly melee'd or went AFK. Also said PLD and BLM don't need refresh.
56DRK/28WAR
-Told the party he was better then them because he had the most AF on. Hear that NIN? Your woodsman rings, Kote, +3 evasion earrings, and other millions in gear don't mean jack compared to a half complete set of gear that is practically useless to that job that was free.
57BRD/7SMN
-Refused to position himself to give different people different spells. In the end everyone got Acc and MP recovery. At least he was an effective carby puller.
56BLM/23RDM
-Didn't have sleep II. Didn't have up to date damage spells. Threw down his stronger damage spells and debuffs as the mob was being pulled in. Yelled at the NIN for being a bad tank.
These are the players that hurt me. How did they make it anywhere without anyone trying to teach them proper utilization of their jobs? Let alone how to dress themselves.
Now the whole thing about me quitting PLD wasn't me complaining about it. More so just an introduction to create a solid foundation for the point I was trying to make. But then again judging from your post you seem to not have read the full thing anyways.
Quote:
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing.
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing.
Wrong.
A PLD (or any tank for that matter) should only have to die if there is no possible way to prevent a party wipe. (Links, aggro during rest time, or being too far away from the zone as a few examples)
Asking a tank to die on a regular basis because you're too retarded to know your own job function is stupid. I would let you die to teach you a lesson instead.
And not the whole party has the ability to keep the tank alive. WHM's sole job responsibility is to keep a party alive. I wouldn't expect a Monk to do it for me.
Most of my PLD tanks have been good enough. I think as far as exp parties go, PLD doesn't have too high of a learning curve, so by say, 40, most PLD seem to know what they're doing.
Every now and then I get a PLD who refuses to cure himself, or worse, doesn't cast anything, period. I hate these.
Most NIN tanks I encounter are not good, but I don't blame them. NIN is, IMHO, the hardest job in the game and anyone who plays it decently gets kudos from me.
WARs at higher levels need 1.) good cooperation from the party, and 2.) favorable mobs to fight to work well IMHO. Since neither is usually present in your typical pickup party, most WAR tanks I've encountered have sucked - though not necessarily at the fault of the WAR.
Every now and then I get a PLD who refuses to cure himself, or worse, doesn't cast anything, period. I hate these.
Most NIN tanks I encounter are not good, but I don't blame them. NIN is, IMHO, the hardest job in the game and anyone who plays it decently gets kudos from me.
WARs at higher levels need 1.) good cooperation from the party, and 2.) favorable mobs to fight to work well IMHO. Since neither is usually present in your typical pickup party, most WAR tanks I've encountered have sucked - though not necessarily at the fault of the WAR.
President the Silent wrote:
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing....
Your parties job is to stop you from dieing....
The job of the party is to a) kill mobs and b) get experience for it, preferably with NO deaths because that would be highly counterproductive to part b.
Quote:
...I don't know why you are complaining. You realized what being a tank meant and you quit. Maybe others like that sort of thing...
If I die once in a good party I'll shrug it off.
If I die once in a bad party I might quit it.
If I die twice in a good party I might quit it.
If I die twice in a bad party I will quit it.
You get the idea. I am not there to die, I am there to keep you from dieing. Sometimes that means I might have to eat dirt, but if I die from stupidity on the parties part, dont expect me to sit there and go, "Oh well, it's my job to die, guess I wont be getting any exp today."
If I die once in a bad party I might quit it.
If I die twice in a good party I might quit it.
If I die twice in a bad party I will quit it.
You get the idea. I am not there to die, I am there to keep you from dieing. Sometimes that means I might have to eat dirt, but if I die from stupidity on the parties part, dont expect me to sit there and go, "Oh well, it's my job to die, guess I wont be getting any exp today."
Quote:
Beyond that, if you don't have flash up and need to cure, start your spell once a mob hits you, that you utilize their attack delay to get your spell in
I think all mages can back you up on this. (well at least any that have ever had to solo anything and know anything)
I know from my experience anyway that this is the one thing new PLD's have the most trouble with. The timing of there spells and I think this is the best time to start your cast. Even just a split second before they hit you. You'll be able to cast the spell with out intterruption most times.
when i pt and i am not satisfied with other members i let them know, not in /tells either...so that usually makes me the "bad guy" because i'm willing to voice my opinion other than just "deal with it"
i remember in cape terrigan(sp?) we had a pld....he would never use his mp, rest when he was low on hp (even though he had full mp!) and making our whm waste her heals on everyone all the time when they should only be on him (for the most part, because he couldn't even keep hate that well) only skills he used was flash and provoke...i mean don't plds cure to get hate also? as a rdm i only pay attention to "wears off" and low health bars for the most part.
i told him several times to heal himself because my mp and the whms mp was always near empty most of the time yet his was always full (i always kept him refreshed too incase he ever decides to use magic)
even the whms sent me tells saying how horrible he is, but eh...i guess people don't want to make enemies at all so they avoid "offensive-like" comments to other party memebers.
i recently had a pt in boyadha(sp? tree, where the whm barely healed.....the blm was actually healing from time to time....which was just pathetic but nobody ever argues with the whm so i didn't say much except for "lets trade mp bars" and /cheer'd the blm whenever she healed lol
i remember in cape terrigan(sp?) we had a pld....he would never use his mp, rest when he was low on hp (even though he had full mp!) and making our whm waste her heals on everyone all the time when they should only be on him (for the most part, because he couldn't even keep hate that well) only skills he used was flash and provoke...i mean don't plds cure to get hate also? as a rdm i only pay attention to "wears off" and low health bars for the most part.
i told him several times to heal himself because my mp and the whms mp was always near empty most of the time yet his was always full (i always kept him refreshed too incase he ever decides to use magic)
even the whms sent me tells saying how horrible he is, but eh...i guess people don't want to make enemies at all so they avoid "offensive-like" comments to other party memebers.
i recently had a pt in boyadha(sp? tree, where the whm barely healed.....the blm was actually healing from time to time....which was just pathetic but nobody ever argues with the whm so i didn't say much except for "lets trade mp bars" and /cheer'd the blm whenever she healed lol
Last night i had a rocking party in Garlaige citadel chaining to 4 and we got 1 5. I was getting so Fast (THF) so hate wasnt a major issue. I got so fast i was able to SC or solo WS before the DRG got TP.
We had a PLD as a Tank. I would SATA him to start 250~ on average. Then we would SC and my VB would do 420~ average with 200~ average distortion. The Tank held hate so well that the DRGs Voke, jump, and High jump + WS could not take hate off of him. So i SATA on the DRG to close the SC from then on. At no point in the party was hate taken off of the PLD. I was Amazed.
200 (voke)
40~ (jump)
40~ (High Jump)
60~ (Raiden thrust)
420~ (SATA VB)
200~ (Distortion)
All onto the DRG. But the PLD STILL kept hate. No flash yet btw.
I was astonished to see such a skilled PLD for any level. Even at the 70s i see tanks that need DDs to turn away or disengage to try and keep hate but that was amazing to me.
We had a PLD as a Tank. I would SATA him to start 250~ on average. Then we would SC and my VB would do 420~ average with 200~ average distortion. The Tank held hate so well that the DRGs Voke, jump, and High jump + WS could not take hate off of him. So i SATA on the DRG to close the SC from then on. At no point in the party was hate taken off of the PLD. I was Amazed.
200 (voke)
40~ (jump)
40~ (High Jump)
60~ (Raiden thrust)
420~ (SATA VB)
200~ (Distortion)
All onto the DRG. But the PLD STILL kept hate. No flash yet btw.
I was astonished to see such a skilled PLD for any level. Even at the 70s i see tanks that need DDs to turn away or disengage to try and keep hate but that was amazing to me.
Yea, I actually like to get other ppl to tell ppl they suck. Just act oblivious and play your cards right.
I.E. thf doesnt pre-charge SATA before pulling.
Just /tell the thf somin like: how long is ur SATA timer?
thf: 60 sec
you:how long does the effect last?
thf: 60 sec or until i hit
you: so the timer resets to 60 seconds when you hit?
thf: no, it resets as soon as I use it
you (in party): so why do you wait till you get back to camp to use it? it seems like you could cut down the recharge time if you use it before ya go pullin.
you (in party): mt
At that point the tanks, and other ppl should tell the thf to precharge, and tell him he sucks for not doing so, etc. That way the thf gets agro from other ppl in the party. You just seem like a nice person for taking intrest.
I.E. thf doesnt pre-charge SATA before pulling.
Just /tell the thf somin like: how long is ur SATA timer?
thf: 60 sec
you:how long does the effect last?
thf: 60 sec or until i hit
you: so the timer resets to 60 seconds when you hit?
thf: no, it resets as soon as I use it
you (in party): so why do you wait till you get back to camp to use it? it seems like you could cut down the recharge time if you use it before ya go pullin.
you (in party): mt
At that point the tanks, and other ppl should tell the thf to precharge, and tell him he sucks for not doing so, etc. That way the thf gets agro from other ppl in the party. You just seem like a nice person for taking intrest.
Quote:
Wrong.. Your job as a PLD is to die.
If your job -was- to die, I doubt you'd see a PLD curing themselves... or wearing armor for that matter.
Protect+Shell... get ready to cancel them when someone gives you it. =P
Quote:
60~ (Raiden thrust)
Why Raiden Thrust in Garliage? I assume you were fighting bats, why not Double thrust? Instead of doing a measily 60 DMG weapon skill he could of been doing 200+ easily.
Anyway, I had a party in Qufim just last night. NINx2, THF (me), WHM, DRK. We lost a member so the leader says "I'll get a PLD to back up heal." So I input "A PLD doesn't want to join a party to "back up heal." Either way, the PLD gets invited, comes to camp sporting STR rings, some Bastokan body armor and had (this is lvl 11 gear by the way), no earrings and no neck gear. We do one fight, he does little dmg, doesn't cure, vokes once and gets hit for about 60 dmg per hit, maybe more.
I get leader, boot him. Tried to explain that his gear wasn't good, he didn't listen. Either way we ended up with a final set up of BRD/WHM, RDM/BLM, NIN/WARx2, DRK/WAR and THF/WAR. Chain 5 consistently. ^^
Genjyuro wrote:
56DRK/28WAR
-Told the party he was better then them because he had the most AF on. Hear that NIN? Your woodsman rings, Kote, +3 evasion earrings, and other millions in gear don't mean jack compared to a half complete set of gear that is practically useless to that job that was free.
-Told the party he was better then them because he had the most AF on. Hear that NIN? Your woodsman rings, Kote, +3 evasion earrings, and other millions in gear don't mean jack compared to a half complete set of gear that is practically useless to that job that was free.
Why is the NIN wearing woodsman rings? I sure as heck hope you dont mean they were using Ochiudo's Kote on top of this. With -15 evasion that NIN would suck compared to an AF wearing DRK.
Telling people they suck at a job really is counter productive. You would get a lot farther if you tried to make polite suggestions rather than putting somebody down, especially in front of other people. Generally people will tend to listen to suggestions from somebody who is nice rather than some jackhole who was rude and cut them down. You catch more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar.
If the person is unwilling to listen to suggestions or helpful advice that is something else. At that point it would be better to either remove yourself or that person from the pt and find a replacement. Telling them they suck wont help so there is no point in starting a fight over it.
I find it amazing that people are unable to do their jobs to a satisfactory standard at lv 55+. I'm currently levelling Summoner and it's 56 right now, but the standard of Red Mages is absolutely terrible. Perhaps I am picking up on it more because it's my main, but I can't think of the last party where Refresh and Dispel were being cast often and when needed. Gravity too.
No Dispel on Beetles / Crabs / Crawlers when they buff creates a much longer battle and the potential for chains goes out the window. Surely people realise something needs to be done when the meleé are missing hit after hit, or when the Paladin has 0 MP because he's been waiting for Refresh the whole battle? But the majority of Red Mages just stand there, like it's someone else's responsibility. Wake up please!!
I've been in parties with some people terrible at their jobs. A White Mage who would only Cure 4 and rest when she wasn't doing that (this was at lv 70), a War/Nin who wouldn't voke EVER because he was scared Utsusemi would get interrupted (uhmm, he was main tank too), a Summoner that only did one Blood Pact per battle and used a Ginger Cookie to rest at about 40mp off max. Unless you tell these people their habits need to change, they will carry on like this till 75. If only it was that simple and people actually listened... :/
No Dispel on Beetles / Crabs / Crawlers when they buff creates a much longer battle and the potential for chains goes out the window. Surely people realise something needs to be done when the meleé are missing hit after hit, or when the Paladin has 0 MP because he's been waiting for Refresh the whole battle? But the majority of Red Mages just stand there, like it's someone else's responsibility. Wake up please!!
I've been in parties with some people terrible at their jobs. A White Mage who would only Cure 4 and rest when she wasn't doing that (this was at lv 70), a War/Nin who wouldn't voke EVER because he was scared Utsusemi would get interrupted (uhmm, he was main tank too), a Summoner that only did one Blood Pact per battle and used a Ginger Cookie to rest at about 40mp off max. Unless you tell these people their habits need to change, they will carry on like this till 75. If only it was that simple and people actually listened... :/
Quote:
Quote:
60~ (Raiden thrust)
Why Raiden Thrust in Garliage? I assume you were fighting bats, why not Double thrust? Instead of doing a measily 60 DMG weapon skill he could of been doing 200+ easily.
I Honestly Don't Know
The PLD MP use question is a constant source of amusement for me. As a rule my hate is pretty much unshakable unless I have DDs 3 levels about me. What I do get from time to time is requests from party memebers to cure more. On the whole I always like to finish a fight with more than 100 mp left in case there's trouble. I do this so I can tank links, pops or agro effectively and keep the party alive. Rarely should this mean additional down time, however when it does I seem to be the one that carries the can.
Today for example I was partied in Boyahda Tree, going nicely but th WHM keeps running out of MP. NOw I start getting the party chat of PLD cure more please, WHM MP running out to fast. Now I can tell you why this was but the WHM didn't seem to know. We were fighting crawler and obviously that means poison spray. Now as all half decent players know barwatera will drop the damage from 400 - 300 down to sub 80. Now could I get the WHM to keep this up, no hence over curing. The WHM had no light staff on, my cures with the hospitaler earing cured more HP. Finally he's was using poisona after ever poison breath so about 3 - 5 times per fight. Now would someone like to tell me just who wasn't doing their job right.
I won't mention the RDM not on his refresh cycle properly so I had to conserve mp or the THF not working out they couldn't turn the mob from me on the skill chain. Odd, really odd
Today for example I was partied in Boyahda Tree, going nicely but th WHM keeps running out of MP. NOw I start getting the party chat of PLD cure more please, WHM MP running out to fast. Now I can tell you why this was but the WHM didn't seem to know. We were fighting crawler and obviously that means poison spray. Now as all half decent players know barwatera will drop the damage from 400 - 300 down to sub 80. Now could I get the WHM to keep this up, no hence over curing. The WHM had no light staff on, my cures with the hospitaler earing cured more HP. Finally he's was using poisona after ever poison breath so about 3 - 5 times per fight. Now would someone like to tell me just who wasn't doing their job right.
I won't mention the RDM not on his refresh cycle properly so I had to conserve mp or the THF not working out they couldn't turn the mob from me on the skill chain. Odd, really odd
When somone is doing something or not doing something that's in my line of work (because admittedly, I've only leveled WHM and BLM extensively 43/23 respectively) I'll send them a polite /t like
/t I've been told Bio and Dia don't stack, or did you just hit a wrong macro? ^^;
Compleatly inoffensive, but normaly effective.
Incidently, I didn't know about the Barwater thing for CN. Never seen another pt, or ptied with anyone who used it. I'll remeber to do so from now on. Thanks.
/t I've been told Bio and Dia don't stack, or did you just hit a wrong macro? ^^;
Compleatly inoffensive, but normaly effective.
Incidently, I didn't know about the Barwater thing for CN. Never seen another pt, or ptied with anyone who used it. I'll remeber to do so from now on. Thanks.
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