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- Why do pullers pull so fast after chain 0?
Why do pullers pull so fast after chain 0?Follow
I mean you have a good hefty amount of time to make chain 1, why not let people rest just a bit in between pulls?
idk, I try to make ppl understand that in my BLM pts ... but meh ...
Not only waiting a little on first chains lets them get more mp ... but it also helps the pops for the later chains ..
Not only waiting a little on first chains lets them get more mp ... but it also helps the pops for the later chains ..
Pulling well is an art.
A lot of people suck at art.
'Nuff said.
A lot of people suck at art.
'Nuff said.
I love when your puller pulls for a chain5 when we are compleatly out of MP, no RDM ... BLM has to use manafont to get any dmg done and we nearly wipe ... and then we miss the chain anyways cause it took so long to kill ...
well, basically because your puller is rather noob...i always leave some extra time between the first few pulls for people to prepare for the oncoming chain (heh, i almost typed train)
and by noob, i don't mean a dumbass, just someone who maybe hasn't been around as much as others that may have not noticed certain parts of the game...
next time i suggest letting the puller know that he doesn't have to pull so fast on chain 1 and 2, and to take a break after obtaining chain 5 (unless you're going for chain 6), and allowing mages to catch up in MP before beginning a new chain.
when i first started playing/pulling, i never thought about this. i knew about chains, but didn't think about varying time between pulls accordingly. until someone mentioned not pulling so fast, then i realized that i should change my timing on pulling to maximize the chains.
let him or her know next time, maybe in /tell channel, that he should vary time between pulls. unless he's a stubborn prick, he should listen to your input...
and by noob, i don't mean a dumbass, just someone who maybe hasn't been around as much as others that may have not noticed certain parts of the game...
next time i suggest letting the puller know that he doesn't have to pull so fast on chain 1 and 2, and to take a break after obtaining chain 5 (unless you're going for chain 6), and allowing mages to catch up in MP before beginning a new chain.
when i first started playing/pulling, i never thought about this. i knew about chains, but didn't think about varying time between pulls accordingly. until someone mentioned not pulling so fast, then i realized that i should change my timing on pulling to maximize the chains.
let him or her know next time, maybe in /tell channel, that he should vary time between pulls. unless he's a stubborn prick, he should listen to your input...
Stunted wrote:
Pulling well is an art.
well said...
Don't get me started...
Last night I died because the puller thought it would be a good idea to immediately pull a bird the split second the bird we were fighting was killed. I have no clue what he was thinking; over half the party was yellow, me (the tank) was RED, and the healer was apparently AFK since there wasn't any cure action happening.
So myself and the BLM died (he was trying to heal me), and one of the members warped out. Another called for help on it and a couple of people either duoing or farming seals helped him, while the person who pulled it disbanded without saying anything or responding to my question of why the hell he pulled the bird in the first place.
In conclusion, pullers should at least have somewhat of an idea of what's going on in the PT before they pull.
Last night I died because the puller thought it would be a good idea to immediately pull a bird the split second the bird we were fighting was killed. I have no clue what he was thinking; over half the party was yellow, me (the tank) was RED, and the healer was apparently AFK since there wasn't any cure action happening.
So myself and the BLM died (he was trying to heal me), and one of the members warped out. Another called for help on it and a couple of people either duoing or farming seals helped him, while the person who pulled it disbanded without saying anything or responding to my question of why the hell he pulled the bird in the first place.
In conclusion, pullers should at least have somewhat of an idea of what's going on in the PT before they pull.
sometimes it can't be helped...competition for mobs can drastically change the pulling strategy. toramas in LoO for instance. it's usually packed with XP-ers and biding your time can have you sitting on your butt for quite awhile.
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Well, in defense of those "bad" pullers, sometimes you pull fast because there are 95 parties in Bibiki Bay and no mobs for chain 2 because you pulled so slow.
Competition makes you pull fast sometimes.
Also, sometimes when you're pulling linking mobs, theres an opportunity to pull without a link if you pull right then and there. That also may cause speedy pulls.
Link prevention makes you pull fast sometimes.
Now, theres no excuse for a puller to pull when no one has MP.
Competition makes you pull fast sometimes.
Also, sometimes when you're pulling linking mobs, theres an opportunity to pull without a link if you pull right then and there. That also may cause speedy pulls.
Link prevention makes you pull fast sometimes.
Now, theres no excuse for a puller to pull when no one has MP.
I agree with most of the posters, though I have something to add as well. It is sometimes viable to pull very quickly even after chain 0. If mages have very good MP levels after fight and nobody is in danger of dying or such, I say go for it. If you wait 20 seconds before every chain 1 and 15 seconds before every chain 2 when you could've been fighting perfectly well [and still achieving chain 4/5 afterwards], is just time wasted IMO. I'm not a perfect puller by any means [always trying to improve, and very interested in pulling], and my only real experiences are with BRD [58 atm] and SAM [40], so I might be completely wrong - but that's the way I see it.
JasmyneTaru wrote:
idk, I try to make ppl understand that in my BLM pts ... but meh ...
Not only waiting a little on first chains lets them get more mp ... but it also helps the pops for the later chains ..
Not only waiting a little on first chains lets them get more mp ... but it also helps the pops for the later chains ..
I have done extensive number counting with manaburns and compared the points per hour of probably 20 sample of each type of puling (resting after 0 & 1 OR just pulling as fast as possible as soon as mages are ready to kill)
It is far better per hour xp to pull as soon as the party is capable of handling a mob. If you forget chains and just kill as fast as possible you will get more xp.
Because a lot of people can't pull. Lots of people think the only thing there is to pulling is /shoot <t> and run. They don't care about range or chain timer, they just run out and shoot stuff.
I have pulled for a very long time and no one believes that I don't get hit. It's not uncommon to hear "You need Utsusemi to pull!" I've never used anything to negate damage other than knowing the range of all my weapons. It's very possible to pull with /attack and not get hit on the way back to camp, I did it as Monk when everyone else was Provoke pulling and screaming at the tank.
Then, there's also all the jack asses spamming "Pull" when you're waiting for MP or mobs to seperate. Generally those people are the people referred to in the first paragraph.
I have pulled for a very long time and no one believes that I don't get hit. It's not uncommon to hear "You need Utsusemi to pull!" I've never used anything to negate damage other than knowing the range of all my weapons. It's very possible to pull with /attack and not get hit on the way back to camp, I did it as Monk when everyone else was Provoke pulling and screaming at the tank.
Then, there's also all the jack asses spamming "Pull" when you're waiting for MP or mobs to seperate. Generally those people are the people referred to in the first paragraph.
It all depends on the party.
Sure, you can wait til the very end of the time limit and still get chain 5s all the time, but what if you can pull one right after the other and still pull chain 5s off?
You get Chain 5s, in a faster amount of time, making more exp per hour.
If the puller pulls right away, and you end up getting chain 3... then they should slow down, but if the pull pulls right away, and you still get chain 5, keep it up, cause you can get better exp/hour this way.
Sure, you can wait til the very end of the time limit and still get chain 5s all the time, but what if you can pull one right after the other and still pull chain 5s off?
You get Chain 5s, in a faster amount of time, making more exp per hour.
If the puller pulls right away, and you end up getting chain 3... then they should slow down, but if the pull pulls right away, and you still get chain 5, keep it up, cause you can get better exp/hour this way.
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
Another tip (since all I ever did was pull on mithsavvy)...
If you spot a good chain ending mob, dont pull it for chain 2 or 3..save him for chain 5 or maybe even 6. If possible pull the far mobs first, then get the closer ones as your time between kills is reduced. And if you party is good don't hesitate to go pull chain 5 well before the other one is dead. Ideally you arrive at camp with the chain 5 mob as the chain 4 is dying... of course be careful, in bibiki an idle dhamel can take down a rng in a couple of hits. Of course if I got back to camp a bit to soon I just Shadowbind him next to camp and get out of range.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 17:02:11 2005 by Mithsavvy
If you spot a good chain ending mob, dont pull it for chain 2 or 3..save him for chain 5 or maybe even 6. If possible pull the far mobs first, then get the closer ones as your time between kills is reduced. And if you party is good don't hesitate to go pull chain 5 well before the other one is dead. Ideally you arrive at camp with the chain 5 mob as the chain 4 is dying... of course be careful, in bibiki an idle dhamel can take down a rng in a couple of hits. Of course if I got back to camp a bit to soon I just Shadowbind him next to camp and get out of range.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 17:02:11 2005 by Mithsavvy
as a thf 65 i consider myself a decent puller, i rarely link and if i do i just die np. but i have never been asked to wait after chain 1, and i have no objection to waiting but mages have to realize, as with any other classes we are not all aware of the certain little things that would help you get your job done. and likewise when i am going to do SATADE and i'm out of range because the PLD is too far back it because he's concentrating on his job and accuring hate. yes i have to ask him but i dont get nasty because i know that it is just one of the things he does not realize because he doesnt play my job, or atleast not @65 just a thought
It Depends. Not all party can hit chain 5 regularly. Instead of trying for it, it is better to get consist chain 4 faster. Than to wait the extra 1 minute on 1, half minute on 2, another half a minute on 3 - then miss 5.
When I go exp We try to hit 5, but we don't gear our pull to the sole goal of getting 5. It is about exp per hour, sometimes time wasted is time wasted.
When I go exp We try to hit 5, but we don't gear our pull to the sole goal of getting 5. It is about exp per hour, sometimes time wasted is time wasted.
As has been mentioned, you dont always need to rest after the first or second pull. It is certainly a good idea to check if the party needs to, but if they dont, then its far better to just keep pulling in the mobs for the exp.
I was in a party last night that was a lot like that. War/Nin, Mnk/War, Nin/War, Whm/Blm, Brd/Whm, Smn/Whm.
After the first pull, I held back for about 30 seconds for the next pull, and ended up having the Nin ask me to go ahead and pull (even though the Whms MP was at about 80% or so).
By the end of that party (only an hour long) we had gained around 7800 exp (8800 for me cause of the hot new Empress Bands ^^).
We hit chain 6 from time to time, chain 5 always, and if there wasnt such a short timer on chain 6, I think we could have gotten like chain 15 just because of our speed. We would go through 15-20 mobs before we would rest to full.
Just like Stunted said, pulling is an art, and some people do suck bad at it. But just like art, there are many different forms and techniques used in it.
I was in a party last night that was a lot like that. War/Nin, Mnk/War, Nin/War, Whm/Blm, Brd/Whm, Smn/Whm.
After the first pull, I held back for about 30 seconds for the next pull, and ended up having the Nin ask me to go ahead and pull (even though the Whms MP was at about 80% or so).
By the end of that party (only an hour long) we had gained around 7800 exp (8800 for me cause of the hot new Empress Bands ^^).
We hit chain 6 from time to time, chain 5 always, and if there wasnt such a short timer on chain 6, I think we could have gotten like chain 15 just because of our speed. We would go through 15-20 mobs before we would rest to full.
Just like Stunted said, pulling is an art, and some people do suck bad at it. But just like art, there are many different forms and techniques used in it.
Common sense should tell you that if there is not an abundant amount of mp flowing around and the mobs are taking too long to kill that you need to give your mages time to recover mp or you will end up losing more exp than what you may have gotten from a chain 5. Some parties do better than others that they can pull right away even after a chain 5, it is all in the setup, the performance, and the mobs you fight. Just because you can do chain 6 on dhalmels with a nin tank, smn DD, whm healer, brd refresher, mnk DD and sam DD does not mean you will acheive the same chains on weapons with a pld tank, smn healer, rdm refresher, drk DD, war DD and blm DD. Be warey of your setup, your level differences, how your party performs, and how much hp/mp is left after each fight before pulling the next mob.
When I pull I don't usually stop between 0 and 1 simply because people either don't tell me to wait or ask why I'm not already on my way back with a new mob. I always take a careful look at what HP and MP look like before I go and get a new mob on any chain anyway and if I don't like what I see I'll wait. Besides, if the area is full of parties you don't necessarily have the option to sit back and relax. If you're the only party around feel free to take your time to avoid unecessary death and get higher chains.
Edit: Yes, let's leave out words, Outlaw. Your posts make so much more sense when there are gaps in your thoughts...
Edited, Wed Oct 12 18:27:05 2005 by MasterOutlaw
Edit: Yes, let's leave out words, Outlaw. Your posts make so much more sense when there are gaps in your thoughts...
Edited, Wed Oct 12 18:27:05 2005 by MasterOutlaw
FFXI (Retired)
Naiya | Mithra | Windurst | Rank 10 | 1st Lieutenant | Ragnarok
WAR: 75 MNK: 75 SAM: 66
RotZ: O | CoP: O | ToAU: O | Apoch Nigh: O
WoW
Naiyah | B.Elf | 85 Rogue | Stormscale
Doubleday | B.Elf | 85 Paladin | Stormscale
[ffxivsig]367614[/ffxivsig]
Naiya | Mithra | Windurst | Rank 10 | 1st Lieutenant | Ragnarok
WAR: 75 MNK: 75 SAM: 66
RotZ: O | CoP: O | ToAU: O | Apoch Nigh: O
WoW
Naiyah | B.Elf | 85 Rogue | Stormscale
Doubleday | B.Elf | 85 Paladin | Stormscale
[ffxivsig]367614[/ffxivsig]
I hate pulling because personally i don't think i'm good at it ^^;; even though tons of people tell me otherwise. But whenever I pull i always go scout right after a kill, (scout not pull... i hate when people will yell at me to wait even though i haven't pulled anything) and then once I'm sure everyone's health is not yellow or lower and that mages have the mp they need, usually I'll pull when they're at maybe around 60-70% of their max mp. I love going for chains... but I love keeping the party alive more than going for UBER CHAIN #1092827 (b^.^)b
Quote:
I mean you have a good hefty amount of time to make chain 1, why not let people rest just a bit in between pulls?
If you have to rest after the FIRST pull, get out of the PT. Oh, and manage your MP better...
http://ffxi.cannotlinkto/links/exp_table.html#chain
As you can see there's is plenty of time to get chain 1, especially at higher lvls. What I do when I'm pulling is start off slow, and pull increasing faster after every fight. Since right after chain 0, it will be the time when the mages have more time to rest, it makes sense to let them get as much MP as possible in order for them to have enough for the additional chains. Also, after the final chain, let the mages rest to full! It will allow you to get another set of chains much faster. Oh and at lower-mid lvls, you DON'T HAVE TO GET CHAIN 5.
As you can see there's is plenty of time to get chain 1, especially at higher lvls. What I do when I'm pulling is start off slow, and pull increasing faster after every fight. Since right after chain 0, it will be the time when the mages have more time to rest, it makes sense to let them get as much MP as possible in order for them to have enough for the additional chains. Also, after the final chain, let the mages rest to full! It will allow you to get another set of chains much faster. Oh and at lower-mid lvls, you DON'T HAVE TO GET CHAIN 5.
/shrug, people are impatience?
Most problem would be for pld, pulling right away after chain0 means less mp for them through out the chain, and people ***** about them not keeping hate, especially when they skillchain right off the bat.
Depend on the party setup, never had to wait on pull on my nin party setup as rdm.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 19:04:51 2005 by Sole
Most problem would be for pld, pulling right away after chain0 means less mp for them through out the chain, and people ***** about them not keeping hate, especially when they skillchain right off the bat.
Depend on the party setup, never had to wait on pull on my nin party setup as rdm.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 19:04:51 2005 by Sole
I love when people talk about the amount of time between to reach the chains but forget that while you are standing there waiting for mp you could be killing and making exp.
Sure you can wait 1 to 2 minutes for MP and still make the chain but then again you can kill a mob in a minute and make more exp than just waiting to fullfill the minumum requirments for chaining.
Having been a puller, whm, blm, tank, melee if we have to stop pulling for any reason something is wrong... and if you ever reached 73+ you know what i'm talking about. Who cares if the whm is out of mp, they will get it back shortly. Time standing around for MP is time wasted. We call this downtime for a reason...
Learn to cut back on what you are doing to conserve time as much as possible. BLMs finish a mob off when there is a fraction of life left. DRKs don't use souleater 24/7. PLDs at the end of the fight drop to your knees and pull out that dark staff. NINs enfeeble so RDMs are not wasting time and mp when they can be hasting more than just you. WHMs learn to communicate with your fellow rdms and healers so you are not wasting mp over curing. THFs and those sub /thf be quick to SATA so the non tanks are not taking massive dmg to waste healer mp. ect ect
So many factors contribute to downtime that 90% of people playing don't take into account what they do causes it. Worst part is being at 70+ and seeing every little thing and not wanting to say anything because at that level you seem like an *** telling someone how to do their job. ~.~
/rant
Sure you can wait 1 to 2 minutes for MP and still make the chain but then again you can kill a mob in a minute and make more exp than just waiting to fullfill the minumum requirments for chaining.
Having been a puller, whm, blm, tank, melee if we have to stop pulling for any reason something is wrong... and if you ever reached 73+ you know what i'm talking about. Who cares if the whm is out of mp, they will get it back shortly. Time standing around for MP is time wasted. We call this downtime for a reason...
Learn to cut back on what you are doing to conserve time as much as possible. BLMs finish a mob off when there is a fraction of life left. DRKs don't use souleater 24/7. PLDs at the end of the fight drop to your knees and pull out that dark staff. NINs enfeeble so RDMs are not wasting time and mp when they can be hasting more than just you. WHMs learn to communicate with your fellow rdms and healers so you are not wasting mp over curing. THFs and those sub /thf be quick to SATA so the non tanks are not taking massive dmg to waste healer mp. ect ect
So many factors contribute to downtime that 90% of people playing don't take into account what they do causes it. Worst part is being at 70+ and seeing every little thing and not wanting to say anything because at that level you seem like an *** telling someone how to do their job. ~.~
/rant
Quote:
If you have to rest after the FIRST pull, get out of the PT. Oh, and manage your MP better...
I didn't think that was what he meant. I got the impression he meant the inevitable chain 0 after you take too long to get a kill and loose the chain, yet your puller disregards everyone's low HP and MP and decides it would be best to start the new chain right now.
Because I constanly get the "wtf go pull now, n00b!" if its not done immediatly after the first pull :/
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