Kraken Club fire sale!Follow

Bomb Toss is a TP move. Why are we even having this discussion?

Or maybe your party isn't the first thing that gob has beaten on recently. You people HAVE been to Kazham right? You've seen what goes on there?

Being a 75 BST, maybe I can shed some light on the bomb toss myth.

First of all, mobs don't start off with 100tp. Need proof? Change to BST, charm a mob, type <pettpp>. Your pet will have 0% tp. Mob tp degenerates over a short period of time also.

As for gobs, anyone who has lvl'd bst pretty far has probably mastered running from bomb tosses, and usually have some way of counting when it'll use the next tp move. A "mob gets 7-8% tp from it's hits + my pet giving it 2% + me giving it 2% a swing" sorta estimation to guess how much tp the gob has and know when to be ready to run. For gobs with double attack, I'd be on guard after the gob gets 4 swings in due to frequent double attacks and stuff, it can be hard to tell.

But anyways, the point is.. bomb toss is definetly a tp move, and goblin rush is a tp move, suicide bomb however does not seem to be due to the fact that gobs can and have blown themselves up without ever being touched after they are pulled. Also many times suicide bomb follows bomb toss way too fast to be based off of tp.

Forget the bloody kraken for mass tp.

Give a sam with meditate and 100% tp a Soboro Sukehiro and have him solo tier three SCs... Someone made a lovely video of it.

http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=84106




Samurai m(_ _)m

There was a thread a long time ago about bomb toss, and all the theories/experiences above were bascially stated there as well.

First of all, having 100tp is definately a surefire way a goblin can Bomb Toss. Not really much to argue about that. I'm sure everyone has fought a few gobs who died before ever doing a Goblin Rush. You think they were saving up tp to 300%?

But we have all seen gobs do 2 or 3 in a row, so it appears there can be other triggers for Bomb Toss. One theory in the thread was HP-related, i.e. when the gob gets to 50%, it can do a Bomb Toss. It's odd though, because this never seems to happen with soloing BSTs, at least from what I have heard.

But let's make this relevant to this discussion, shall we? Does anyone here actually think giving a goblin more TP won't result in more Bomb Tosses? If not, this argument has nothing to do with the Kraken Club.

Now see pld like second poster... My 56 thf when i sub 25 war for nms i sometimes get triple attack, double attack, triple attack. That with this kris would own.

Mobs do not gain TP in the same way you do. when you are hit by a mob you get 2 TP, when a mob gets hit it gains whatever TP you gained +5. Any spell that does initial damage gives it 10 tp. I forget what they get for hitting you but I believe it's larger than what we get.

All this was tested by BSTs using charm, you can go out and try it for yourself.

You're full of ********* because if you were really a BST you'd already know that when you hit a mob it gains the same amount of TP you did +5. You can test this by hitting a mob and then charming it.

I've recently tried soloing some Kazham mandies, and there is no way in he[b][/b]ll a Yuhtunga Mandragora is getting 100% TP off of -me- hitting it 3 times.

That's right, 3 times...I had one drop a Dream Flower and put me to sleep...I woke up finally (it couldn't hurt me through Phalanx and Stoneskin) and hit it three times...then it DF'ed again.

Now, as any BST (even me, with my pitifully low level BST) can tell you, if it doesn't take damage, it doesn't get TP.

And -anyone- who has hit for 0 damage can tell you they don't get any TP from the hit.

My BST (18 right now) isn't high enough to charm Mandies around Kazham, but if that move is a TP move, then my Wize Wizards Analace must be giving 30+ TP per hit or so, for it to have enough TP after three blows to use Dream Flower again.

Now, last I heard, if I got 5 TP from hitting something, it got 5+5 for 10 TP from being hit...and I know for <deleted> sure I wasn't getting any "30 TP per hit".

Therefore, if that move is based in any way off of TP, the the mobs (while controlled by the server) are playing by totally different rules to PC's and Pets...but why should that surprise people.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, TP=0% or TP=9999%, it makes no difference in whether a mob will use the ability.

Now, basing my next thought on what I know as a SMN, it's possible that some moves a monster can perform are -improved- based on TP%.

We all know SE likes to reuse code anywhere possible to save "space" for the Ps2 (although that might change when the Xbox-360 version comes out).

It's quite possible that the Avatars use the same code as the Mobs...and some BP's have no change reguardless of TP while others are enhanced -past- 100% TP...but none of them require -any- TP to work.

But after all the times I have seen a mob spam "TP Moves" like an old-school Dragoon or Monk could -spam- their multi-hit moves (before the TP Gain Nerf killed Penta-Spam and Hundred Asuran Fists), there is no way you can tell me the mobs "Must get 100% TP before they can do X" when the SERVER is controlling them.


Galantdramon
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Sensubean on Midguardsormr

It does, but if there is no other party there (there wasn't), and we are pulling the mobs as they respawn, then there can be no "Just got through with a fight and hasn't dropped below 100% TP yet".

I repeat, if the mob has to play by the same "TP Use Rules" we (and our pets) do, then Bomb Toss and a few others cannot be true "TP" moves...but then Shield Bash isn't a TP move, nor is Berserk, Elemental Seal, and so on...those go by timer not TP%.

If things like "normal" Bomb Toss (not their suicide move) are TP Attacks exactly like ours, then they can't spam them...and since they can spam them like a mage (with enough mana) can spam nukes, then there are only a few possible answers:

1) It's not a TP Move.
2) The Mobs (while controlled by the server) do not have any restrictions on what moves they can use and when they can use them.
3) A combination of the above (which would fit if they works like avatar's moves).

Personally, my money is on #2.


Galantdramon
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Sensubean on Midguardsormr

Ever fought Steelfleece? He spams Mighty Strikes pretty much at will.

Mobs definitely don't follow the same rules on tp, but I think they still need it. I'm not sure on the suicide gobbie bomb, but the other ones are all TP based (and require 100% TP) I think.

Mobs gain TP faster than most of the posters are giving them credit for. This only applies to mobs that are not pets, mobs that are pets gain TP like we do pretty much.

I think mobs gain TP in the following ways:
1) TP from the mob hitting you (usually 7-8% per hit or so)
2) TP from you hitting the mob (somewhere around the TP you get + a small percentage)
3) TP from spells cast on them. I believe it is 10TP per spell cast on them.

I base this on:

1) seems like common sense they get TP for hitting you (which might be wrong), percentage is based off of what my pets usually get per hit (formula could be quite a bit different)

2) I used an Eft in Bibiki Bay while waiting on the manaclipper.
a) charmed eft
b) used <pettp> to check it's tp which was 0%
c) used leave
d) hit it with my axe (I got 7% tp)
e) immediately charmed it
f) used <pettp> to check it's tp which was 10% (note: this doesn't match the 5% the other poster listed)

3) Again used an Eft in Bibiki Bay.
a) charmed eft
b) used <pettp> to check it's tp which was 0%
c) used leave
d) cast Dia on the eft
e) immediately charmed it
f) used <pettp> to check it's tp which was 10%

Mobs seems to decay TP at 10% per healing tick (and they are always healing after any DoT effects wear off). I base this off of getting hit with TP attacks on mischarms from mobs with >100% tp. If I leave a mob with >100% tp and try to charm it and fail, it usually uses a TP attack on me. If I leave a mob with >100% tp and leave it alone for a bit (a few healing ticks), I never get it with a TP attack and if my charm succeeds, the mob has TP but less than 100%. This also matches the TP decay on natural pets (jug pets operate differently).

So, I think I can explain at least some of the examples that people have sighted (NM excluded since they make their own rules).

Bomb toss immediately even though nobody around
possibility a) Mob was attacked/attacking someone else, but up TP and hasn't lost it yet. Mob hasn't been healing because it still has a DoT effect on it that isn't doing enough damage to be obvious in it's HPs. People that were involved HP'd.
possibility b) Suicide bomb only isn't a TP attack

Dream flower/other tp attack spamage for the following scenario

tp attack, hit, hit, tp attack

2 attack rounds by mob with 2 attacks each = 4 x 5% = 20%
3 melee x 2 rounds each = 3 x 2 x 10% = 60%
2 enfeebles/nukes on mob = 2 x 10% = 20%

and you have 100% with just 2 attack round by everyone and a couple spells. Add in a double attack by a melee and you easily have 100% tp total.

To explain Galant's experience with soloing a mandy either requires that he cast a lot of spells on the mandy in that time frame (somewhat unlikely since he was asleep all the time) or mobs get tp for getting hit for 0 dmg (which goes against what is commonly believed). I'm not sure what to think there.

I personally have had 0 experiences that cannot be explained by the TP gain rules outlined above and the TP attacks requiring at least 100% tp. I'll have to do some more testing when the servers come back online (which should be about now).

With a kraken club, it's entirely believable you could be giving the mob a lot of TP. Whether that matters or not depends on the mob and your party (or just you if solo).

Edit: got on the server so I did some more quick tests with an impish bat in toro... canal.

In all cases, I charmed the bat, waited until it had 0 tp, took action on bat, charmed bat, checked tp. Here's the results I got (just 1 trial of each, I assume it's pretty consistent). The TP numbers on the left are the ending TP for the bat after charm (also TP gained since it started at 0 each time).

0 TP Let it aggro and hit blink shadows some.
0 TP Let it aggro and hit stoneskin for 0 dmg.
0 TP Cast paralyze which was resisted.
0 TP Missed bat with a swing.
6 TP Let it hit me for damage once.
10 TP Cast dia.
10 TP Cast Banish.
10 TP Hit with axe (I got 7 TP from swing)
25 TP 2 hits from bat, 1 hit from staff (also some misses in there which give 0 TP as shown by earlier tests above). I ended with 13 TP. So I conclude that I got 2 TP per hit + 9 TP from swing. Bat got 6TP per hit x 2 which leaves 13TP from my swing. Perhaps it is your TP gain * 1.5 rounded down?
0 TP Hit bat with treat staff II for 0 dmg.


Edited, Fri Oct 14 00:01:24 2005 by RedHobbit