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Anti-Kiting Expansion!Follow

#1 Dec 14 2017 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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RoS looks to continue EQ's current prejudice against kiting or root-rotting. Now I haven't extensively explored yet but so far every mob I've tested in the Overthere either is immune to snare/root, summons or has some seriously damaging range spells or abilities, all anathema to kiting and/or root-rotting. (I've died a few times just testing since the ranged spells are so potent I can't even get an evac off!) EoK was the same way, basically, altho I did find a few, very few, kiteable mobs in an area with room to kite.

I have no problem with most mobs summoning or being snare/root-immune---in principle---but since druids and wizards get snares,roots, aoe nukes and/or powerful dots, leave us some areas to solo profitably using the tools "the gods" have provided us with!

PS
Several long threads on the EQ forums complaining generally about the non-group-friendly nature of the mobs in OT. Maybe today's 5 hour patch, which seems rather long to fix a purported tradeskill bug, will include some changes to mob power.

Edited, Dec 14th 2017 12:49pm by Sippin

Edited, Dec 15th 2017 11:17pm by Sippin
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#2 Dec 14 2017 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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I find you need to box nowadays which is a shame but what it has come to. I suggest mage and Wizard or Druid. I have never agreed or liked forced group content. I always thought it was 25% raid content, 50% group and 25% solo or way it should be.


Edited, Dec 15th 2017 9:44pm by Mymercisajerk

Edited, Dec 15th 2017 9:45pm by Mymercisajerk
#3 Dec 15 2017 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
As someone who mains a wizard, I find this dishearteningly awful. There are some nights where I just want to be by myself when I'm working on content. It would be nice if there were *some* option to solo. =(
#4 Dec 16 2017 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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missjackie wrote:
As someone who mains a wizard, I find this dishearteningly awful. There are some nights where I just want to be by myself when I'm working on content. It would be nice if there were *some* option to solo. =(


I agree.


This is also where it would be really easy to justify the mass-revamp approach. A revamped to 110+ Cobalt Scar, Noble's Causeway, Icefall Glacier, Plane of Valor, etc. would be expected to still be kite-happy zones or at least zones with kite-happy camps.

Sure, totally new stuff is great too but the best way to get lots of niche tactic stuff faster is to be pro-revamp. Expand the sandbox 85+ and drastically reduce the world 1-85 to match where the live playerbase is. Tie in the revamps to current era drops and it works pretty easily.

Remember to move quest items (i.e., epic stuff) to a level appropriate new spot and/or provide an alternative way to get the item. All this stuff can be era-set so anyone that wants it the old way plays (even just levels up) on progression to do it that way.
#5 Dec 16 2017 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Lets just say that RoS was not ready to be released but they had to keep their deadline regardless if the expansion was ready or not. So hopefully we'll see some patches in the near future to correct many of the issues the expansion has right now and things that were reported in beta that were never fixed.
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#6 Dec 17 2017 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, they have a bit of a history of detuning things after launch as well...

Remember when fishing in GoD was profitable? I don't think that lasted 2 weeks.

#7 Dec 17 2017 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seems to me they've been anti-kiting for well over a decade now. At least as a druid, you can pop a merc tank, and be a healer. Necros have pets. Chanters can use runes and charm. Wizzies are the ones who really get screwed with anti-kiting approaches.

I just don't understand why they can't make all trash in open zones non-summoning. Would spread out the player base a lot, and open up options for kiters.
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#8 Dec 18 2017 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I haven't kited with my wizard in ages, I level her in a boxed group. The problem for me is the short-duration snare wizzies get. Druid snare, once enhanced with AA's, lasts 15 mins and the AA version, "Entrap", is basically unresistable if the mob isn't flagged immune to run speed changes.

Kiting is absolutely possible in recent expansions so while I agree Sony/DBG never seemed to be big proponents of solo kiting or root-rotting it has definitely been doable. I levelled both my max level druids almost exclusively with solo-kiting up to now. See my writeup here in the Wiki. It's linked from the QUAD-KITING article since I couldn't figure out how to add my QUINT-KITING article to the "table of contents." I list a bunch of mobs/zones which work there. But they're not as efficient XP-wise once you hit 105.

I will add my secret kiting spots for 105-110 once I ding 110 lol.
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#9 Dec 18 2017 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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carrolldude wrote:
Even with druid and tank merc can't really heal enough or fast enough really need a cleric and better a real tank with far superior abilities, and gear. Tank merc is cool but cannot compare to high end, raid gear or 10k or max aa.


Depends what you're trying to do. I've done a lot in TDS with my tank merc, with me at 105, and it's a 105 expac, so that's level appropriate. And I'm far from elite when it comes to gear and skills.

Your second statement is correct (merc tank can't compare to player tank), and that's as it should be. But there is still plenty you can do.

To heal fast enough, there are some tricks you can use. Most important is probably to have Healing Gift, Healing Adept, and Abundant Healing maxed out. Then, make use of spells like XXXX Growth (adds hp to a player temporarily), the XXX of the Reptile spells (adds a defensive healing proc to the tank), and Sunrise Blessing (whatever it's called). That one nukes the tank's target, and gives a buff which allows the next two heals to twincast. Using that, you can usually do a quick "assist swap" (hit assist, nuke target, assist back). We have a number of tools which cast very quickly, and can be executed during a quick assist swap, so you can keep up on the heals. Most common in here are Storm Strike, Banestrike, the two DoTs that cast in less than 1 sec, and the Remote line, which nukes the target and reflects a heal back to their target (should be the tank).

Tat
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#10 Dec 20 2017 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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snailish wrote:


This is also where it would be really easy to justify the mass-revamp approach. A revamped to 110+ Cobalt Scar, Noble's Causeway, Icefall Glacier, Plane of Valor, etc. would be expected to still be kite-happy zones or at least zones with kite-happy camps.



I'm not sure revamping passage zones like Cobalt Scar to 110+ would be good. I remember soloing there with my Druid long ago and know it is a great spot for it, but changing the zone to 110+ would make getting to the content behind it, SG and WW etc. difficult/impossible for any sub 100 player.

I know the player base in general is beyond the levels the content in those zones is designed for, but there are some.


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#11 Dec 20 2017 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Snailish can (and surely will) speak for himself but I think he means to do with those zones what they've done with the new Kunark zones, OT, HS, FM, etc., i.e. design updated higher-level versions of those zones as part of an expansion. NOT take away the existing lower-level versions. They could even make instanced higher-level versions like they did with Unrest long ago, or seasonal, like they do with Crushbone and other zones.

Edited, Dec 20th 2017 3:33pm by Sippin
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#12 Dec 20 2017 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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They can do it a lot of ways.

I'm not super-fond of multiple versions of the same zone existing at the same time at various levels (if the story is different in the versions of the zone. If it is the same story I don't care), but if the Dev team feels that is wisdom so be it. Keeping the base world as-is and providing high level instances that you hail an NPC (or click a new object) to go into probably appeals to me more than always being prompted to choose on zoning.

I prefer the idea that the story moves. Recognizing that the vast majority of the active playerbase is 95+ it really does makes sense (to me) to work towards a game with most of the content in that level and beyond. Since progression lets us visit nostalgia... it's pretty easy to justify being more radical in revamping.

Do I like having 10+ viable different leveling chains from 1-50... yes, but it is empty content 99% of the time on live servers. I can revisit it full to empty on progression servers depending where they are at.

I (and likely speaking for only myself) would accept an updated live EQ that did the following (and I will be brief vs. mass idea listing):

-forwarded storylines to reduce the number of home cities and leveling chains, even available continents

-Used TSS as the 1-75 chain, infilled other connected zones to broaden some options and get us to 85. This is where alternate access to quests worth not obsoleting occurs. Not because I love TSS, but because the work is mostly already done aside from putting the alternate access to key quests in.

-Used revamped Feerott and the connected zones as the leveling chain (and tutorial Sr. to get people up to speed with the modern game). Again, much of the work has been done and having Lower Guk, Kithicor, Befallen, Ro and such on the re-entry chain makes sense.

-took everything else and either reused it tuned to 105+ (including fun things like making Grobb a raid zone, in the spirit of Thurgadin or even Plane of Growth where a place means different things to different race/class/diety combos) or made it obsolete and set it aside for future expansions (for example... take Taelosia [Gates of Discord] out completely. Reuse the zone art, rename the zones and populate them with the new overlords from the Deathfist/Crushbone alliance).

-tune new things to age better. By this I mean 2018 expac raids get a 2019 normal mode (so easier for casual guilds) and a 2020 group mode, with rewards scaled to be good for the effort but viable in the era you get them. Keeps the content valid way longer and keeps the world bigger at the top.

many other little things, but that is probably the basic theory.
#13 Dec 29 2017 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I'm almost to 110 and haven't killed one mob in the expansion. I've been quint-kiting yetis. With LotD running they give 1.0% xp per kill at 106. It drops to 0.8% at 108 and then drops right off to 0.4% per kill at 109. Looks like 110 is sorta of a h-e-double-toothpicks level. Smiley: eek But it will get done.

My goal is always to solo my main quickly to any new max level. Then I form my boxed group and level the rest of them doing quests, progression and achievements. The question for me this time around is will I do it in RoS or use older content. One good thing about EQ there is always somewhere to hunt and something to do!


Edited, Dec 29th 2017 10:24am by Sippin
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#14 Dec 29 2017 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sippin wrote:
Well, I'm almost to 110 and haven't killed one mob in the expansion. I've been quint-kiting yetis. With LotD running they give 1.0% xp per kill at 106. It drops to 0.8% at 108 and then drops right off to 0.4% per kill at 109. Looks like 110 is sorta of a h-e-double-toothpicks level. Smiley: eek But it will get done.

My goal is always to solo my main quickly to any new max level. Then I form my boxed group and level the rest of them doing quests, progression and achievements. The question for me this time around is will I do it in RoS or use older content. One good thing about EQ there is always somewhere to hunt and something to do!


Edited, Dec 29th 2017 10:24am by Sippin


Yes, 109 is certainly a **** level, according to all I've heard. Still, 0.4%/kill is still better than some of the old time **** levels back in the day. I remember for some of those, calculating I'd need ~450 mobs to level. This is 250.

Edit: Of course, we didn't have Lesson back then, so 2 x 250 = 500, so I guess this is about the same ;)

Quick question for you on the yetis and quinting. I haven't tried quinting anywhere yet, but I have been running my Lessons at the yetis, and can kill ~22-24 per Lesson, using DoTs instead (worth ~55 AA/Lesson @ 106). I was curious how this compared to quinting.

For comparison's sake, I have about 105K mana, maybe 110K if I have crack.

Tat

Edited, Dec 29th 2017 11:35am by tatankaseventh
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#15 Dec 29 2017 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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That's pretty good for dots. I pull 10 at a time and kill them all in about 10 minutes. Then I gate out and wait for my timers to refresh. I usually get 2 rounds in and have about 5 mins left. Which is good enough to do one more pull of 5. So that's 25 yeti's, about the same as you're doing. I consider quinting more fun though and more risk, which translates to fun for me.

Given how mana-heavy druid high level dots are, I'm impressed you can kill that many. Sometimes I use dots to hasten the quint. I may dot a couple of the mobs outside the quint target so they're dying at the same time. But I have to be careful doing this since the dots burn so much mana. I will have to try a Lesson using dots and see if I can replicate your rate. My mana pool is about 150k. I'm not questioning your experience but I am surprised you can kill that many with single-target dots. The whole advantage of quinting is the mana-efficiency of 5-target aoe nukes. They're the most mana-efficient damage spells druids get.

Edited, Dec 29th 2017 2:10pm by Sippin
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#16 Dec 29 2017 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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No need to question, I'll tell you how I do it here :)

First, as a note, I have enough focus AAs for my DoTs, that they're all doing the extra 8% damage, and my DoT AAs are complete (with the exception of Destructive vortex, missing the third rank). With this, I can kill most with one round of the 5 main DoTs (I skip the 2.5+ minute DoT, XXX Chill, it takes too long). Also, with twincast running, I can take out a yeti with just one round of Sunflash/Horde/Overwhelming.

When I start, I gather 6, and start kiting, throwing on wolf form, and then IT, which gives me 18 doubled casts. Since I need 3 DoTs/mob, that will kill 6 mobs, how convenient ;) I cast Lesson as I finish applying DoTs to the 3rd mob. Once all DoTs are on, I also throw in Storm Strike/Fire Storm as it refreshes (as well as while gathering the six). I may have one or two which need one more dot to finish, so I throw on a Sunflash. Once all 6 are dotted, I cast the mana regen bear, so that helps as well. For the rest of the lesson, I'm recasting the mana bear whenever it refreshes.

When the six are down, I have just enough mana left to kill another with twincasting, so I use the spell form and take out another. After that I med to near full, taking advantage of fast regen, and then kill one normally (the full round of 5 dots). By then, spell twincast is back up, so I do one that way, med up, and now IT is refreshed, and I start over. Rinse and repeat, and viola, 20-24 dead yetis in a Lesson, without porting out to PoK :)

My question with the quinting is, looking at the base damage of the quint spells, it seems like I'd have to cast it well over 100 times to take them out, which seems like an awful lot, not to mention I wouldn't have enough mana to cast them that many times.

Tat

Edit - Forgot to mention, I don't think either method could go much past 25-26 per Lesson, due to lack of availability of mobs. Though, with porting out to regen, you could wait for respawns, so that would help.

Edited, Dec 29th 2017 2:48pm by tatankaseventh
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#17 Dec 30 2017 at 6:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't need 100 casts of the quint spells when all your nuke enhancement AA's and abilities are enabled. I haven't counted exactly but I think it must be more like 10-12 casts to kill the 5 mobs.

Even with 10 mobs I don't have to refresh ensnare.

I've tried as many as 20 at once but it just drags on forever and I end up having to recast ensnare on all the survivors, my big feet get sore from running and it just ain't worth it.

For me it really comes down to how much down time do I want to tolerate. The most effective way would be to pull 5 yetis, pop AA's/etc, quint them down to close to dead, pop LotD, finish them off, earning the doubled XP, then immediately port to GH to wait for timers to refresh. I shouldn't even waste time looting since the yeti loot is terrible. (But I'm always hoping for a rare item, since I have read they can drop from yetis!) I should have an alt in zone who can loot for me. Then come back and repeat once timers are refreshed. I could probably push my kill total to 30 with this for one LotD, but instead of taking 30 minutes, it would take more like an hour, allowing for time waiting for refresh. 25 in 30 minutes versus 30 in 60 minutes, that's the choice. Sometimes the second choice works well if I'm doing real work on another computer and I don't mind having my druid sitting in the GH waiting on the timers.

There are a LOT of yeti's, btw. Did you find the little sunken circular area with another dozen? Not to mention the yeti caves must have at least 20+ more, although pulling them would indeed be somewhat challenging. This is why I finally mentioned here what mobs I'm quinting since I think the yeti population could support several druids and wizards soloing, even with a group killing them too. Seriously 2,3 or even 4 kiters could work here if they're smart about their kiting routes. Recently I found you can drag a pack of yeti's to the wall area of the city. It's a great flat stretch of ground with no local mobs and it enables very easy kiting on a straight line along the wall.

This is by far the best camp for quinting or rotting IMO.



Edited, Dec 30th 2017 7:04am by Sippin
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#18 Dec 30 2017 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ok just for fun I did a hard test this morning. I pulled 10 yetis and then played them as hard as possible while watching the clock and my casts.

The first 5 died after 25 quint spell casts. I have the top 4 aoe dd's, Rank 3's of the lowest 2 and Rank 2's of the new ones. This consumed all of my Improved Twincast.

Then I casted Twincast Rank II. Short duration so it only allowed me 5 casts before dropping.

Total time to kill all 10 mobs, at max efficiency, was 5 minutes. I did waste a minute afterwards looting. I can loot during the quint but this still burns up time. Then I gated out to refresh timers.

I can't do this 6 times in one Lesson because on this first quint I popped LotD AFTER rounding up 10 mobs. It must take 1-2 minutes to round up and ensnare 10 yetis. Now if I wanted to get super-efficient I could use my "backup druid" to do the rounding up and bring in my main only when they're all ready for him.

BTW, there is also the yeti fur quest which requires looting 14 yeti furs. You can't delegate that. It still gives 1% XP at 109. But IMO it's only worth doing once per Lesson since I wouldn't waste the time doing the turn-ins during the Lesson.

So in summary I think with maximum efficiency, and using an alt for prep work, one could kill 60 yetis during one LotD. Allowing for the inevitable snafu, maybe 40-50 is the more realistic maximum. If/when I get Rank 3's of all the aoe dd's, this might improve further.

It also helps to buy Glyph of Destruction 2, but that costs 5 AA's and until I'm max AA I always loathe spending AA's on quickly consumed buffs like this one.


Edited, Dec 30th 2017 7:44am by Sippin
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#19 Dec 30 2017 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Re: looting, advloot is your friend. Tradable items take literally no time to loot, no drops CAN be configured to loot the same way.

Yeti quest: If you don't want to min/max it (which I don't), just collect the furs, and turn in once lesson is done. Bonus: any you kill before looting enough to get to 14, still drop the furs, so you wind up with more than 14. And the excess count towards the next iteration of the quest :)

Porting in and out for timers/using alts: Yeah, I don't have the patience or the time for that, not to mention that it is a somewhat popular spot, so you may port back and lose it :(

Quinting: Thanks for checking and letting me know. My math must suck. The level 106 spell (I don't have 107 yet) does 14K base. Crits are usually 5.5 times the size, but you don't always crit. So let's say you average 55K per hit. Twincast is 110K. At 5.6M HP, yeti would need ~53 hits. You're doing it in half that. So, are crits THAT much bigger than base? Or is there something other than Twincast needed which I don't know about? I appreciate the tips and help :)

Tat
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#20 Dec 30 2017 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm using more than Twincast. Read my quinting article here. I activate every possible buff and AA that enhances dps: Nature's Fury, druid BP clicky, Intensity of the Resolute, First Spire, Focus Arcanum, Season's Wrath, Black Wolf form (of course), Frostweave Aura, Gaze of Ro, you name it. Plus, of course, I use Storm Strike and Banestrike every chance I get.
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#21 Dec 30 2017 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks, I'll check that out!
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Tatanka Wolfdancer, 106 Wood Elf Druid, 7 x 300+ Master Artisan, 7 maxed trophies :)
Anaceup Mysleeves, 105 Erudite Mage, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
Snookims Whinslow, 105 Erudite Enchanter, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
<Inisfree>, Tunare (Seventh Hammer!)

Tatankaa (95 Inquis)/Urkell (38 Conj)/ Seanthornton (24 Pally), <Inisfree> Freeport server (some other server now)
#22 Dec 30 2017 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quint-Kiting for Fun, Profit and XP

I'm on the verge of dinging 110 almost exclusively off quinting yetis. Plus I'm a certified Monkey Killer now, or whatever that title is!

I did accidentally aggro "a laborer" when I pulled some yetis near the city wall. He was LB, a very easy kill and I saw a 1% increase in XP when he died. I'll have to try a quint of those and see how good that XP is, because I do think they have a lot fewer HPs than yetis. Killing them does boost 5 factions UP but it lowers two Combine factions. I posted the result under the page here for "a laborer." There are a lot of laborers in/around the city plus the guards don't care if you attack them---incredibly. Brings back the olden days when druids used to quad Butcherblock guards. Not that I ever did that <ahem> I just heard of evil-inclined druids who would. Smiley: sly

PS

Default faction with denizens of EoK and RoS cities is apprehensive. Killing two laborers got me to dubious. So caution is advised.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2018 7:38am by Sippin
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#23 Jan 02 2018 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
thanks I updated the post
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Quint_Kiting#Wiki

105 to 110 Lceanium Yeti's Bonus EXP from the loot for the Quest Yammering Yeti. There are a LOT of yeti's, btw. Did you find the little sunken circular area with another dozen? Not to mention the yeti caves must have at least 20+ more, although pulling them would indeed be somewhat challenging. Seriously 2,3 or even 4 kiters could work here if they're smart about their kiting routes. Recently I found you can drag a pack of yeti's to the wall area of the city. It's a great flat stretch of ground with no local mobs and it enables very easy kiting on a straight line along the wall. .
#24 Jan 02 2018 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks!
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Sippin 109.5 DRU *** Max AA *** Firionia Vie
Master Artisan (300) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
My crew: 105 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ 100 SHD BER RNG PAL SHM Master Alchemist *** 85 ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
#25 Jan 03 2018 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,252 posts
At 110 killing 9 yetis, some of whom are now light blue, got me 2% XP with LotD running. So the gloss is off the yetis at 110.
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Sippin 109.5 DRU *** Max AA *** Firionia Vie
Master Artisan (300) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
My crew: 105 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ 100 SHD BER RNG PAL SHM Master Alchemist *** 85 ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
#26 Jan 03 2018 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
**
632 posts
Sippin wrote:
At 110 killing 9 yetis, some of whom are now light blue, got me 2% XP with LotD running. So the gloss is off the yetis at 110.


Yep, that's one of the reasons I've learned to level one level at a time in this game, get the AAs I want, and only then moving up to a new level.

Last night I turned on regular XP again for the first time since the 12th, when I dinged 106. Made about 2500 AAs in that time, and everything that's left is not too exciting. Time to move on to 107 :)
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Tatanka Wolfdancer, 106 Wood Elf Druid, 7 x 300+ Master Artisan, 7 maxed trophies :)
Anaceup Mysleeves, 105 Erudite Mage, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
Snookims Whinslow, 105 Erudite Enchanter, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
<Inisfree>, Tunare (Seventh Hammer!)

Tatankaa (95 Inquis)/Urkell (38 Conj)/ Seanthornton (24 Pally), <Inisfree> Freeport server (some other server now)
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