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Grouping: Basic things to remember...Follow
I understand both arguments on the Temp issue. I expect to pay in PoK, and I don't mind paying in group only because it is expensive if you're not buying plat - especially when you have to temp the whole group. The only time I was turned down was because the cleric siad he didn;t have any dots. After that, I started keeping a couple on me. I always offer plat or a dot and it is usually gratefully accepted. I have never had anyone demand it. The cleric in my guild flat out refuses to take anything for it...bless her heart!
Ok I was going to stay out of the thread about reimbursing dots, but what the heck. My 3 main characters are 45 Clc, 46 Pally, and 47 (couple kills from 48) chanter who often ends up ML.
On the cleric's arguement on reimbursement; I agree there is a big difference between buffing spells that only take mana vs. one that consume dots. At 11 pp per temp cast (and recast if you get mobs debuffing), it is certainly possible to go in the hole in a LDON. This would apply to any class in the same boat with dots (rune for example) as well as caster stones for chest spells - I disarmed 2 chests in LDON last week successfully for mundane no drop items, and the stones set me back about 3 pp each. I could see where it would be possible to get back less on split than spent on a LDON if temp was cast a lot. The arguement is basically that one class is spending money to help the group while rest are not. I have had occasional clcs refuse to join LDON groups unless they get reimbursed for dots. More often the group gives Peridots found to clc rather than selling as loot.
I also feel that it makes little sense to demand temp be cast on the casters who should be trying to avoid agro in the first place unless they want to pay for it for insurance.
On the opposite side, LDON IMHO is not about splitting loot (I can often make as much on 1 Hill Giant in Rathe as I would for 90 to 120 minutes spent in LDON plus usually another 20 mins plus before hand getting group together and buffing) but rather about experience, augs, and named item drops.
If your goals are to work together as a team, then clc contributions are healing and buffing, tanks are combat, chanter mez, etc. etc. - if you dont buf the MT, then chances of success go way down, especially on a hard one. Also, if the idea is to reimburse for costs, then tanks who go to POK to pay for bufs and casters who go for KEI could demand repayment since they are contributing pp for the group too. I just think you go down a slippery slope when you move in this direction - do we start paying rogues to disarm traps?
Although I play both characters, I never accept payment for mana bufs and don't require reimbursement for dot spells since I feel it comes with the class I choose to play. However, I have noticed recently that it is much harder to find clerics for LDON in the high 40s low 50s groups I am in (where you find temp.) and this could be one reason.
Edit note - knew I should have stayed out of this thread LOL. Plick has good points, what I meant was that if everyone in groups needs temp at the mid 40s level where I am playing, then clcs are going in the hole. As chanter I agree that CC is likely to get agro at some point but resolution or some other mana only buf should keep me alive until tanks pull it off me (doenst cost the 11 pp). My point about rogue's was tongue in check attempt to say are groups going to have to compensate everyone for doing something for the group rather than all contributing what we have. Guess I need more sleep.
Edited, Tue Mar 2 16:17:12 2004 by rickea
On the cleric's arguement on reimbursement; I agree there is a big difference between buffing spells that only take mana vs. one that consume dots. At 11 pp per temp cast (and recast if you get mobs debuffing), it is certainly possible to go in the hole in a LDON. This would apply to any class in the same boat with dots (rune for example) as well as caster stones for chest spells - I disarmed 2 chests in LDON last week successfully for mundane no drop items, and the stones set me back about 3 pp each. I could see where it would be possible to get back less on split than spent on a LDON if temp was cast a lot. The arguement is basically that one class is spending money to help the group while rest are not. I have had occasional clcs refuse to join LDON groups unless they get reimbursed for dots. More often the group gives Peridots found to clc rather than selling as loot.
I also feel that it makes little sense to demand temp be cast on the casters who should be trying to avoid agro in the first place unless they want to pay for it for insurance.
On the opposite side, LDON IMHO is not about splitting loot (I can often make as much on 1 Hill Giant in Rathe as I would for 90 to 120 minutes spent in LDON plus usually another 20 mins plus before hand getting group together and buffing) but rather about experience, augs, and named item drops.
If your goals are to work together as a team, then clc contributions are healing and buffing, tanks are combat, chanter mez, etc. etc. - if you dont buf the MT, then chances of success go way down, especially on a hard one. Also, if the idea is to reimburse for costs, then tanks who go to POK to pay for bufs and casters who go for KEI could demand repayment since they are contributing pp for the group too. I just think you go down a slippery slope when you move in this direction - do we start paying rogues to disarm traps?
Although I play both characters, I never accept payment for mana bufs and don't require reimbursement for dot spells since I feel it comes with the class I choose to play. However, I have noticed recently that it is much harder to find clerics for LDON in the high 40s low 50s groups I am in (where you find temp.) and this could be one reason.
Edit note - knew I should have stayed out of this thread LOL. Plick has good points, what I meant was that if everyone in groups needs temp at the mid 40s level where I am playing, then clcs are going in the hole. As chanter I agree that CC is likely to get agro at some point but resolution or some other mana only buf should keep me alive until tanks pull it off me (doenst cost the 11 pp). My point about rogue's was tongue in check attempt to say are groups going to have to compensate everyone for doing something for the group rather than all contributing what we have. Guess I need more sleep.
Edited, Tue Mar 2 16:17:12 2004 by rickea
4 posts
From the standpoint of a level 55 enchanter I have to add this to the MA/MT definitions:
As far as a CC toon is concerned -- Who is MT is meaningless. I dont care who has aggro and I dont care whose hps are dropping (Clerics/healers --- you worry, Most mobs proc "LOADING PLS WAIT" to an enchanter). I only care about which of the 5 mobs coming back at the group is the primary target. For this reason I insist in ldons that all members of the party target the MA's target (The MA is always the puller). Most often a pally or bard will pull and "hand off" the aggro to a warrior. The warrior is the MT - (Main tank - hes the one doing the dying, at least the rest of the group hopes so). The hand off isnt important for CC. So many times (especially in pickups) the warrior with gadzillion hps says "I'm MT" and everyone assists him even though he doesnt pull and doesnt assist the one who is pulling. IMHO the best arrangement in single group situations (NOT RAID) is to have a simple assist the puller strategy and let CC take care of the rest. MT should get the aggro, but as for actually assisting him I'd say outside of good groups with a history of working together (guild or otherwise) thats a hard strategy to make work and not break mezzes. IT IS ESSENTIAL TO ALWAYS HAVE PULLER DESIGNATE NEXT ATTACK TARGET. And one way to guarantee that the enchanter isnt going to have the aggro regardless of taunt is to root a mezzed target just prior to the mez break. That way the warrior (MT) has plenty of time to build aggro even if the taunts arent effective.
I have to say that all of the information above is of excellent value, however, as a someone who has to do pickup groups the MA pulls, MT assists MA, group assists MT strategy guarantees a couple of enchanter deaths before everyone works it out.
Just my 2 cp.
As far as a CC toon is concerned -- Who is MT is meaningless. I dont care who has aggro and I dont care whose hps are dropping (Clerics/healers --- you worry, Most mobs proc "LOADING PLS WAIT" to an enchanter). I only care about which of the 5 mobs coming back at the group is the primary target. For this reason I insist in ldons that all members of the party target the MA's target (The MA is always the puller). Most often a pally or bard will pull and "hand off" the aggro to a warrior. The warrior is the MT - (Main tank - hes the one doing the dying, at least the rest of the group hopes so). The hand off isnt important for CC. So many times (especially in pickups) the warrior with gadzillion hps says "I'm MT" and everyone assists him even though he doesnt pull and doesnt assist the one who is pulling. IMHO the best arrangement in single group situations (NOT RAID) is to have a simple assist the puller strategy and let CC take care of the rest. MT should get the aggro, but as for actually assisting him I'd say outside of good groups with a history of working together (guild or otherwise) thats a hard strategy to make work and not break mezzes. IT IS ESSENTIAL TO ALWAYS HAVE PULLER DESIGNATE NEXT ATTACK TARGET. And one way to guarantee that the enchanter isnt going to have the aggro regardless of taunt is to root a mezzed target just prior to the mez break. That way the warrior (MT) has plenty of time to build aggro even if the taunts arent effective.
I have to say that all of the information above is of excellent value, however, as a someone who has to do pickup groups the MA pulls, MT assists MA, group assists MT strategy guarantees a couple of enchanter deaths before everyone works it out.
Just my 2 cp.
Quote:
I also feel that it makes little sense to demand temp be cast on the casters who should be trying to avoid agro in the first place unless they want to pay for it for insurance.
Gonna have to disagree here since we know our slower/ cc is going to get aggro at some point (or do you plan to NEVER take your chanter to the planes perhaps?) it is in our better interest to ensure they don't go down in 5 hits. Sure I guess if you prefer to assume that everything will go perfectly and no one but the tank ever gets aggro then you don't buff your casters...but when they die because things didn't go as planned, after you informed group that you don't buff casters...its not them that's going to look like a clueless ***...its only your own name as a cleric you hurt.
Quote:
Also, if the idea is to reimburse for costs, then tanks who go to POK to pay for bufs and casters who go for KEI could demand repayment since they are contributing pp for the group too. I just think you go down a slippery slope when you move in this direction - do we start paying rogues to disarm traps?
I'm trying to figure out where you're coming with this one. Does it cost a rogue 11p everytime he disarms a trap? Whatever buffs you choose to purchase before arriving to a group is your business... my chanter often joins groups where the cleric does not buy kei and relies on my c2 for mana regen.
The other thing y'all have to consider, although temp is good and long lasting and all that...once you hit about 55... you're at that age where you don't get aego yet and your tanks don't want gymp temp...no they want symbol....symbol which you're going to have to cast at least twice in an LDoN and maybe more depending on how well you've alligned trashbuffs to cover dispelling.
Like I said only once have I encountered someone who actually argued about holding aside regent payment for the cleric...most people understand the necessity of hp buffs and are perfectly happy to see that the group covers the cleric's costs.
Edited, Mon Mar 1 19:07:29 2004 by plick
Hmmmm... I really have to disagree with just about everything you said. Not that you don't have decent reasons. I just think you are overcomplicating things. It might even just be that your use of the terms is a bit different then mine.
I'll say it again: MA stands for "main assist". He's the guy who is going to tell the rest of the group what mob to attack and when to attack it. It does not matter if the MA happens to also be the puller or not. However, it *always* works best if the MA is also the MT. The only reason to have the MA not also be the MT is if for some reason the MT simply can't handle the job (ie: the player is too inexperienced to know how to do it properly).
Ok. You were good right up to the very last bit. Why on earth is the MA always the puller? Yes. I'm aware that you don't care about agro, but everyone else does. If the MT is assisting the puller at the same time as the rest of the group, you are going to get agro ping pong going on for the first half of your fight.
The only way to make this work correctly would be to have the puller(MA in this case) declare the target. Everyone assists, but only the MT attacks. When MT gets good agro (and perhaps after mob is slowed and such), he calls for everyone to attack the mob. At that point everyone attacks. There's a huge problem with this though, and it's what I've been talking about all along. If the rest of your group isn't going to join the attack until the MT says to do so, why not just assist off the MT in the first place? That way you don't ever have the problem where the MA calls a target, the MT attacks, an unmezzable add comes in, the MT switches to the add, then calls for attack, but since everyone assisted off the original pull, they all break mez off the original mob.
It is always best to have the MT be the MA. The puller just pulls. The MA/MT gets his target off the puller, but that's ok. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to have oner person do that and make the targeting call, then rely on 5 people all doing the right thing if a target change is needed. All those other 5 need to know is that when the MA/MT calls for assist, they hit their "/assist MA" button and run up and attack.
Ok. But if that's the case, wouldn't you as the chanter rather that all the melees were attacking the same target the MT is attacking rather then half the group attacking one target and half attacking the other?
The point is that whether the MT is a complete and utter moron or not, by defintion, whatever mob he's fighting is the mob he's fighting. It's mez will be broken. He will be taking damage from it. Like it or not, his target is the target everyone else should be attacking.
Also. If you are arguing this in a group. You are wrong and the MT is right. 99% of all EQ players know to assist off the guy who's tanking. If you try to argue that they should be assisting off someone else, you are going to cause mss confustion. When I tank, I call for asssists. I don't care what the chanter thinks. It's his job to keep the mobs I don't target mezzed. He may suggest targets, but ultimately, I'm the one initiating all attacks on mobs, so ultimately, I'm the one who everyone needs to be assisting. Attempting to do it any other way will result in problems. I'd suggest that if you get problems with MTs who insist that they be the MA, that you need to let them. Odds are they know exactly what they are doing.
Again. Your strategy is actually more complicated and more likely to result in broken mezzes. It doesn't matter who's pulling. The puller should not be attacking the mob. In the case of a "hand off", he wants to generate the minimum amount of agro possible, right? Thus, he's not going to be whacking on the mob all the way along the pull. If he does, you've got an idiot puller. The MT will always be the first character to physically attack the mob (and sustain an attack, bow shots and such don't count). The mob he chooses to attack, right or wrong, is the one that you can't mez. Therefore, it's always going to be the one everyone else should be attacking.
It's not a hard strategy at all to do it my way. Everyone simply assists off the MA when attacking. If the MA is also the MT, this works 10 times better then any other character. I cannot think of a single situation in which it would be simpler and more efficient to use anyone other then the MT as the MA in a group. None. You are welcome to try to come up with one, but I'm betting you can't.
Then simplify it. Make the MT also be the MA. Then it's really easy: Puller pulls. MT/MA assists puller for target (or selects a different target if needed). MT/MA engages. MT/MA calls assist. Everyone assists MT/MA. Mob dies. Chanter is free to use CC on all other mobs. He never has to worry about any other mob getting hit.
The reason you think it's confusing is because you are insisting on making the puller the MA. Take that bit out of the equation, and it suddenly becomes extremely simple. You, as a CC character do need to deal with the puller and what ever other mobs are there. However, the rest of the group does not. Having the puller be MA is bad for a number of reasons. Often the puller is the last one to know he's got adds and what type of adds. It's extremely common for the puller to get to camp, turn around, and only then see that he pulled a couple extras. Also, it's harder for the puller to target the correct mob. It's hard enough for a chanter to target the right mob out of a crowd of mobs that are clumped together. It's 10 times harder to do that while running and the mobs are beating on you.
The MT, on the other hand, can see the mobs being pulled. He can see that the puller pulled a healer, or a non-mezable mob. He can choose to just use the puller's target, or to target something else instead. That's his job. Sure. That makes his job "harder", but so many people think that tanking is just about standing there and hitting the autoattack button and occasionally mashing taunt. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the MT is expected to do target selection as well. That's his job. He determines who's being attacked. Ultimately, he's the one who'll be breaking mezzes when it's time to break mezzes. Thus, he's the logical choice to assist. If you /assist the MT, you will never break a mez. Ever. Any other scheme you come up with that involves someone else calling targets is just introducing another thing that can go wrong into the group.
Um... Speaking of mezzes. What do you expect folks to do about that? Do you have your puller pick the mezzed target to break, then have the MT /assist off him (along with everyone else), then again have a separate message from the MT telling folks when to attack? Again. It makes 100000 times more sense to have the guy who's going to be breaking the mez (the MT) be the one people assist off of for the next target. Do you think we should have *two* assist buttons now? One for pulls and one for mez breaks? That's just dumb. You only need one, and it should always be the MT.
You're literally making it much more complicated then it needs to be. Just have you MT be your MA and everthing becomes really really easy.
Edited, Mon Mar 1 19:04:52 2004 by gbaji
I'll say it again: MA stands for "main assist". He's the guy who is going to tell the rest of the group what mob to attack and when to attack it. It does not matter if the MA happens to also be the puller or not. However, it *always* works best if the MA is also the MT. The only reason to have the MA not also be the MT is if for some reason the MT simply can't handle the job (ie: the player is too inexperienced to know how to do it properly).
Latriss wrote:
As far as a CC toon is concerned -- Who is MT is meaningless. I dont care who has aggro and I dont care whose hps are dropping (Clerics/healers --- you worry, Most mobs proc "LOADING PLS WAIT" to an enchanter). I only care about which of the 5 mobs coming back at the group is the primary target. For this reason I insist in ldons that all members of the party target the MA's target (The MA is always the puller).
Ok. You were good right up to the very last bit. Why on earth is the MA always the puller? Yes. I'm aware that you don't care about agro, but everyone else does. If the MT is assisting the puller at the same time as the rest of the group, you are going to get agro ping pong going on for the first half of your fight.
The only way to make this work correctly would be to have the puller(MA in this case) declare the target. Everyone assists, but only the MT attacks. When MT gets good agro (and perhaps after mob is slowed and such), he calls for everyone to attack the mob. At that point everyone attacks. There's a huge problem with this though, and it's what I've been talking about all along. If the rest of your group isn't going to join the attack until the MT says to do so, why not just assist off the MT in the first place? That way you don't ever have the problem where the MA calls a target, the MT attacks, an unmezzable add comes in, the MT switches to the add, then calls for attack, but since everyone assisted off the original pull, they all break mez off the original mob.
It is always best to have the MT be the MA. The puller just pulls. The MA/MT gets his target off the puller, but that's ok. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to have oner person do that and make the targeting call, then rely on 5 people all doing the right thing if a target change is needed. All those other 5 need to know is that when the MA/MT calls for assist, they hit their "/assist MA" button and run up and attack.
Quote:
Most often a pally or bard will pull and "hand off" the aggro to a warrior. The warrior is the MT - (Main tank - hes the one doing the dying, at least the rest of the group hopes so). The hand off isnt important for CC. So many times (especially in pickups) the warrior with gadzillion hps says "I'm MT" and everyone assists him even though he doesnt pull and doesnt assist the one who is pulling.
Ok. But if that's the case, wouldn't you as the chanter rather that all the melees were attacking the same target the MT is attacking rather then half the group attacking one target and half attacking the other?
The point is that whether the MT is a complete and utter moron or not, by defintion, whatever mob he's fighting is the mob he's fighting. It's mez will be broken. He will be taking damage from it. Like it or not, his target is the target everyone else should be attacking.
Also. If you are arguing this in a group. You are wrong and the MT is right. 99% of all EQ players know to assist off the guy who's tanking. If you try to argue that they should be assisting off someone else, you are going to cause mss confustion. When I tank, I call for asssists. I don't care what the chanter thinks. It's his job to keep the mobs I don't target mezzed. He may suggest targets, but ultimately, I'm the one initiating all attacks on mobs, so ultimately, I'm the one who everyone needs to be assisting. Attempting to do it any other way will result in problems. I'd suggest that if you get problems with MTs who insist that they be the MA, that you need to let them. Odds are they know exactly what they are doing.
Quote:
IMHO the best arrangement in single group situations (NOT RAID) is to have a simple assist the puller strategy and let CC take care of the rest. MT should get the aggro, but as for actually assisting him I'd say outside of good groups with a history of working together (guild or otherwise) thats a hard strategy to make work and not break mezzes. IT IS ESSENTIAL TO ALWAYS HAVE PULLER DESIGNATE NEXT ATTACK TARGET. And one way to guarantee that the enchanter isnt going to have the aggro regardless of taunt is to root a mezzed target just prior to the mez break. That way the warrior (MT) has plenty of time to build aggro even if the taunts arent effective.
Again. Your strategy is actually more complicated and more likely to result in broken mezzes. It doesn't matter who's pulling. The puller should not be attacking the mob. In the case of a "hand off", he wants to generate the minimum amount of agro possible, right? Thus, he's not going to be whacking on the mob all the way along the pull. If he does, you've got an idiot puller. The MT will always be the first character to physically attack the mob (and sustain an attack, bow shots and such don't count). The mob he chooses to attack, right or wrong, is the one that you can't mez. Therefore, it's always going to be the one everyone else should be attacking.
It's not a hard strategy at all to do it my way. Everyone simply assists off the MA when attacking. If the MA is also the MT, this works 10 times better then any other character. I cannot think of a single situation in which it would be simpler and more efficient to use anyone other then the MT as the MA in a group. None. You are welcome to try to come up with one, but I'm betting you can't.
Quote:
I have to say that all of the information above is of excellent value, however, as a someone who has to do pickup groups the MA pulls, MT assists MA, group assists MT strategy guarantees a couple of enchanter deaths before everyone works it out.
Then simplify it. Make the MT also be the MA. Then it's really easy: Puller pulls. MT/MA assists puller for target (or selects a different target if needed). MT/MA engages. MT/MA calls assist. Everyone assists MT/MA. Mob dies. Chanter is free to use CC on all other mobs. He never has to worry about any other mob getting hit.
The reason you think it's confusing is because you are insisting on making the puller the MA. Take that bit out of the equation, and it suddenly becomes extremely simple. You, as a CC character do need to deal with the puller and what ever other mobs are there. However, the rest of the group does not. Having the puller be MA is bad for a number of reasons. Often the puller is the last one to know he's got adds and what type of adds. It's extremely common for the puller to get to camp, turn around, and only then see that he pulled a couple extras. Also, it's harder for the puller to target the correct mob. It's hard enough for a chanter to target the right mob out of a crowd of mobs that are clumped together. It's 10 times harder to do that while running and the mobs are beating on you.
The MT, on the other hand, can see the mobs being pulled. He can see that the puller pulled a healer, or a non-mezable mob. He can choose to just use the puller's target, or to target something else instead. That's his job. Sure. That makes his job "harder", but so many people think that tanking is just about standing there and hitting the autoattack button and occasionally mashing taunt. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the MT is expected to do target selection as well. That's his job. He determines who's being attacked. Ultimately, he's the one who'll be breaking mezzes when it's time to break mezzes. Thus, he's the logical choice to assist. If you /assist the MT, you will never break a mez. Ever. Any other scheme you come up with that involves someone else calling targets is just introducing another thing that can go wrong into the group.
Um... Speaking of mezzes. What do you expect folks to do about that? Do you have your puller pick the mezzed target to break, then have the MT /assist off him (along with everyone else), then again have a separate message from the MT telling folks when to attack? Again. It makes 100000 times more sense to have the guy who's going to be breaking the mez (the MT) be the one people assist off of for the next target. Do you think we should have *two* assist buttons now? One for pulls and one for mez breaks? That's just dumb. You only need one, and it should always be the MT.
You're literally making it much more complicated then it needs to be. Just have you MT be your MA and everthing becomes really really easy.
Edited, Mon Mar 1 19:04:52 2004 by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
The MT has always been the main assist in my groups...if I'm on my bard...I tell you what's inc...once the war announces he has target said mob with his "Assist me on %t" I'm off to mezz adds or add dps...
if i bring back 2 and the tank has selected his target...I'm targeting the add to mezz...you assist me and break my mezz repeatedly because you think puller is MA im eventually gonna get pissy.
The only time your puller should be MA is when he is also the MT ... the only one who should ever assist puller on target is you're MT, the rest of the group targets by assisting the MT...this ensures group is on the same page....you dont wake a mezzed because you attacked what the tank is attacking.
Edited, Mon Mar 1 19:33:38 2004 by plick
if i bring back 2 and the tank has selected his target...I'm targeting the add to mezz...you assist me and break my mezz repeatedly because you think puller is MA im eventually gonna get pissy.
The only time your puller should be MA is when he is also the MT ... the only one who should ever assist puller on target is you're MT, the rest of the group targets by assisting the MT...this ensures group is on the same page....you dont wake a mezzed because you attacked what the tank is attacking.
Edited, Mon Mar 1 19:33:38 2004 by plick
Quote:
If you /assist the MT, you will never break a mez. Ever.
Unless you are in melee range of the mob and hit /assist before the MT actually breaks mezz...Warriors especially need to take a few seconds to get aggro before breaking mezz, and I've seen some impatient meleers break mezz on the mob that I just failed taunt on...
Haha! I forget about that...I always assume that everyone disengages auto-attack from their assist command...of course, this is why we wait for the tank's call to attack the mob before we hit ANY keys that would engage attack.
I was exploring Ferubi Monday night. We had a few mishaps. Between rebuffing after rezzes and dispelling mobs I got through 32 peridots. Is that a reasonable thing to ask your cleric to put up with out of their own pocket?
Luckily I was with good people and I got my dot money before the split.
Luckily I was with good people and I got my dot money before the split.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Quote:
You're literally making it much more complicated then it needs to be. Just have you MT be your MA and everthing becomes really really easy.
Holy bejesus. You can't admonish someone for overcomplicating anything, at the end of a 20 page dissertation on a simple concept.
*rubs blood out of his eyes*
To add to that monstrosity, may I also point out that as a puller I often have cause to change targets during the pull - rooting adds and pacifying repops that I don't want to add.
Don't assist the puller. Assist the tank. Unless they are the same person. Either way, only assist when called.
Edited, Wed Mar 3 14:32:55 2004 by Patrician
As for the 'dot issue...I've seen it handled a couple ways.
All peridots drops go to the cleric, of course, but 'dots don't drop everywhere.
I've seen the cleric be ML'er and deduct the cost of 'dots before splitting.
In camps where gems drop, I've seen the group give the first gem to the cleric, before anyone gets to roll on them (cleric may still roll for next gem).
I was ONCE in a LDoN group where, at the end of the adventure, the cleric and the group leader both thought the cleric was automatically entitled to the drop off the named mob. No mention was made of this at the beginning of the adventure, so needless to say there was a general uproar over this...
I have tried to reimburse clerics for 'dots on occasion...clerics I've grouped with, unless very poor, have rarely accepted plat, but have accepted 'dots. Then again, I'm the tank, so maybe that makes a difference.
Let me ask the clerics out there...DO you feel differently about spending a 'dot on the tank then you do on, say, the wizard who shouldn't get hit anyway (but probably will when he gets nuke-happy or when you get adds)?
All peridots drops go to the cleric, of course, but 'dots don't drop everywhere.
I've seen the cleric be ML'er and deduct the cost of 'dots before splitting.
In camps where gems drop, I've seen the group give the first gem to the cleric, before anyone gets to roll on them (cleric may still roll for next gem).
I was ONCE in a LDoN group where, at the end of the adventure, the cleric and the group leader both thought the cleric was automatically entitled to the drop off the named mob. No mention was made of this at the beginning of the adventure, so needless to say there was a general uproar over this...
I have tried to reimburse clerics for 'dots on occasion...clerics I've grouped with, unless very poor, have rarely accepted plat, but have accepted 'dots. Then again, I'm the tank, so maybe that makes a difference.
Let me ask the clerics out there...DO you feel differently about spending a 'dot on the tank then you do on, say, the wizard who shouldn't get hit anyway (but probably will when he gets nuke-happy or when you get adds)?
Quote:
Let me ask the clerics out there...DO you feel differently about spending a 'dot on the tank then you do on, say, the wizard who shouldn't get hit anyway (but probably will when he gets nuke-happy or when you get adds)?
The kind of things I seem to be doing lately I'd rather have every group member start out with maxed hp. It buys me time. The extra 1400hp of Virtue or Pot/Symbol could give me time to finish one heal and switch targets for the caster who's caught aggro.
It's all very well saying "they shouldn't get aggro - let them die - That'll teach them". Unfortunately it also screws up the group causes tension and loses time if you're in LDoN.
More often than not nowadays I Symbol/Virtue (mostly Symbol - twice) an LDoN group and don't get anything back. Typically 2 Virtue and 4 Symbol twice. 10 peridots = 104pp. Splits are 150pp - 250pp so it covers the cost, I just get less than everyone else.
As for the argument about other group members indenting for their KEi etc. The cleric has that cost as well.
However the "all gems to the cleric" and that story of the named drop defaulting to the cleric are scams. Clerics deserve to have their expenses covered, not make a profit on it.
Wherever I go - there I am.
I always try to keep enough reagents on hand to cast my latest symbol on my tanks. In a pick-up LDON group I will refuse a druid or caster that will not be tanking the symbol. But all of my tanks in group get it...that is, unless I forgot to buy it and have no time to stop on the way. But I do so without requesting reimbursment. On occasion someone will hand me 20 plat for their, so I figure I make out in the long run.
I understand chain pulling perfectly well and have done so with my warrior...I agree that it is the desirable way to work, but...I got into a group in the overthere with my cleric. The puller, who was an SK got upset with me because I refused to be the second puller for the group and accused me of not wanting to chain pull. I was the primary healer...I was very clear...I want the group to chain pull, but I am not doing the pulling. Was I wrong? The group had an SK, warrior, shammy, druid and myself. Seems to me the healer is the last one in that mix you want getting agro.
If I have missed some sublte tactic where the tanks have the healer pull, help me to understand it? ;-)
I understand chain pulling perfectly well and have done so with my warrior...I agree that it is the desirable way to work, but...I got into a group in the overthere with my cleric. The puller, who was an SK got upset with me because I refused to be the second puller for the group and accused me of not wanting to chain pull. I was the primary healer...I was very clear...I want the group to chain pull, but I am not doing the pulling. Was I wrong? The group had an SK, warrior, shammy, druid and myself. Seems to me the healer is the last one in that mix you want getting agro.
If I have missed some sublte tactic where the tanks have the healer pull, help me to understand it? ;-)
nope, he was just bonkers. the tanks should of split the pulling.
[qoute]The group had an SK, warrior, shammy, druid and myself.[/quote]
any of the others in that group could of easily been 2nd puller. would of been best to have warrior and sk pull, but either the druid or sham could of handled it just as well in OT. those mobs dont hit that hard for the armor out there and buffs for your level. heck a wiz can be a nice off puller too, but still best for tanks to get in this habbit for chain pulling.
you were not wrong, that guy was just umm goofy ill put it.
[qoute]The group had an SK, warrior, shammy, druid and myself.[/quote]
any of the others in that group could of easily been 2nd puller. would of been best to have warrior and sk pull, but either the druid or sham could of handled it just as well in OT. those mobs dont hit that hard for the armor out there and buffs for your level. heck a wiz can be a nice off puller too, but still best for tanks to get in this habbit for chain pulling.
you were not wrong, that guy was just umm goofy ill put it.
Patrician wrote:
*rubs blood out of his eyes*
To add to that monstrosity, may I also point out that as a puller I often have cause to change targets during the pull - rooting adds and pacifying repops that I don't want to add.
Don't assist the puller. Assist the tank. Unless they are the same person. Either way, only assist when called.
Edited, Wed Mar 3 14:32:55 2004 by Patrician
Absolutely correct. To do anything else is plain crazy.
In difficult places the puller could have changed targets several times and using assist/target on the puller is likely to have you attacking some mob rooted 50 feet away. When I'm pulling in areas with multiples, I always try to prepare the mobs ahead of getting back to camp. Some will snared, some may be rooted, some may even be dotted.
The main target should always be managed between the puller and the main tank (what ever you want to call him/her). I always try to let the Mezzers know that I will have the mobs spread out if possible and my target upon hitting camp with be the main target for the tank.
In LDoN's its not really possible to be this precise though and this is where Chanters have the big advantage in being able to use their AoE mezz and stuns. Bards and Necros just have to be prepared to take a beating and trust their healer to be awake and watching.
Cobra101 wrote:
"It's all very well saying "they shouldn't get aggro - let them die - That'll teach them". Unfortunately it also screws up the group causes tension and loses time if you're in LDoN."
More often than not nowadays I Symbol/Virtue (mostly Symbol - twice) an LDoN group and don't get anything back. Typically 2 Virtue and 4 Symbol twice. 10 peridots = 104pp. Splits are 150pp - 250pp so it covers the cost, I just get less than everyone else.
Its also a matter of using some common sense.
If you are in a group with a Shaman and/or Druid, there are perfectly good alternatives to every one having to have Temp or Virtue.
I feel the same way as Cobra, I would rather every one be as well protected as possible, but PoTC or PoT9 with HoS etc is just as good for covering those emergency situations.
People just need to be a little more thoughtful.
However it is the LDoN situation that hurts a cleric the most, simply because in the course of a days play, it is possible to have spent 100 to 200 PP in buffing a whole bunch of stangers who you will never see again and who couldn' care a less if they never saw you again. Lol, I have even had people asking me for Temp at the end of a mission so that they could go off soloing.
Its the horrible position that this sort of thing puts the Cleric into that my original post was about. I feel that if I say "no, bugger off" I make myself look bad in the eyes of the rest of the group. Then after I've buffed the person and group disbands and everyone disappears, I feel like I've been suckered.
Edited, Wed Mar 3 21:50:19 2004 by Iluien
Quote:
Its the horrible position that this sort of thing puts the Cleric into that my original post was about. I feel that if I say "no, bugger off" I make myself look bad in the eyes of the rest of the group
Try "Oh? Are we doing another dungeon then?"
That puts the onus back on them to explain that they expect you to buff them for free outside the group situation.
It is a difficult situation, made worse by the fact that they know exactly what they are doing.
It coould be worse. There was an account on our server board the other day of a cleric who was invited to a group. He ran a few zones, joined the other character who was badly damaged. He healed him, buffed him and then got disbanded and shouted at to stay of the mobs.
As far as using Pot9 and Focus instead of Symbol it is usually as well as. I want the guys in frocks at or above 4k if at all possible. Sometimes they still go down faster than....
In a straight LDoN (as opposed to the kinky ones) I'd agree that it might be possible to save the symbol. However it is a bit of a viscious bicycle in that if you decline to symbol anyone your chance of recompense (if any) diminishes.
Wherever I go - there I am.
I've used the ma/mt terms interchangable. always will unless something changes. don't make any since to target the mob before assisting, unless your tank don't use assist msg and you want to give him a bit to get good argo hold. i'm a ranger, i pull don't assist me. if something goes wrong (back spawns, didn't see one in the corner) and I pull more than 1, chances are the one I'm targeting is snared and coming slow while i'm saving my ranger tail out running the add. who I'm hoping the mt gets argo asp. early targeting makes it easy to start attacking to early. the chanter should tell the mt if a different mob needs to switched too, all need to stop and the mt needs to get argo before peeps start atacking.
I thought group temp, aego, and virtue just required 1 or 2 peridots? yes I think the cleric should have there cost covered, but not to make a profit, IE getting named loot or all gems. if they use 4 peri give them enouph to cover cost before split, then /spilt the rest.
I thought group temp, aego, and virtue just required 1 or 2 peridots? yes I think the cleric should have there cost covered, but not to make a profit, IE getting named loot or all gems. if they use 4 peri give them enouph to cover cost before split, then /spilt the rest.
86.) If you use some health-draining, mana-giving spell PLEASE tell the healers!
7 posts
I have read most of the post in this thread and i agree with them all 100 % . Although I don't understand some of the abbreviations just yet I will soooner or later.. The thing I wish to point out though is this...
If you join a group say for a major event like a raid or LDON and you KNOW it is going to take a while to finish> DON"T LEAVE THE GROUP... if you know how long it will take to finish something (i.e LDON is usually at least 2 hrs) and you know you will have something to do before then.. DON"T JOIN it's that simple.. do not join a group when you know you will have to leave before the adventure is finished.... Also LISTEN TO THE HEALER... when they say LOM and OOM you had better be payin' attention cuz if your not YOU GONNA DIE... cuz i can't heal ya without me mana.. !!!
If you join a group say for a major event like a raid or LDON and you KNOW it is going to take a while to finish> DON"T LEAVE THE GROUP... if you know how long it will take to finish something (i.e LDON is usually at least 2 hrs) and you know you will have something to do before then.. DON"T JOIN it's that simple.. do not join a group when you know you will have to leave before the adventure is finished.... Also LISTEN TO THE HEALER... when they say LOM and OOM you had better be payin' attention cuz if your not YOU GONNA DIE... cuz i can't heal ya without me mana.. !!!
2 posts
This makes more sense to me than any of the other posts on this topic, towit: when I say I have %T inc to camp, THAT should be the target, whether I'm the Main Tank or not!
I've found very messy situations in LDoN dungeons when the Tank decides that the "INC" is not his target, especially when the INC is not the first mob to arrive at camp!
I'm still learning, and LDoN is giving me a chance to learn about group tactics that I'm very grateful for (thank you for your patience - everyone who's endured and is enduring this learning process) but with that caveat, this makes the most sense to me.
All comments appreciated.
I've found very messy situations in LDoN dungeons when the Tank decides that the "INC" is not his target, especially when the INC is not the first mob to arrive at camp!
I'm still learning, and LDoN is giving me a chance to learn about group tactics that I'm very grateful for (thank you for your patience - everyone who's endured and is enduring this learning process) but with that caveat, this makes the most sense to me.
All comments appreciated.
See Pat! It seems like the "simple things" just have to keep being said over and over. It's really not my fault...
That' is absolutely 100% wrong. How many times does 99% of the player population have to tell people that assisting off the puller is a bad idea before it sinks in? Don't do it. If you don't understand why, then just take my (our) word for it and do it anyway. You'll always be doing the "right thing" if you assist off the main tank. Always.
They are messy situations only when you have people who assist off the puller instead of the main tank.
Ok. Let me explain this again (takes a deeeeep breath):
Your main tank is tanking. He's not standing around looking pretty. He's tanking. By definition, his job is to take damage. Assuming a group where everyone is trying to attack the same target (and presumably CC the rest), the mob that's being attacked will always be capable of dishing out damage to someone in the group (at a minimum).
The main tank ensures that one target is attacking him by attacking that one target. Thus, his target will *always* be able to attack him back. Always. No matter what anyone on the CC team does (ok, chain stuns excepted, but that's different). Therefore, at a minimum, the mob the MT is fighting will be able to do damage to the group. Since the whole point of CC tactics is to reduce the number of mobs able to do damage to the group as low as possible, and the MT's mob is *always* going to be able to do damage, therefore they *only* way to reduce the number of mobs doing damage to the group to the minimum (one) is to always attack the same target the MT is attacking.
There's just no other way to do this. Assising the puller only works if the MT happens to chose the same target the puller targeted. But if the MT changes his mind (caster mob comes along, there's an add in camp, or he just dislikes one more then another), you will always have two or more mobs doing damage to the group.
The MT is always right. Even if he's on the wrong target, if you attack a different one, you've just doubled the rate of damage your group is taking. He's always right. Always assist him. His target will always be unmezzed and will never be rooted out of range of melee, thus his target, no matter how he picked it, is always the correct target for everyone else to attack. End of story.
Here's what makes the most sense:
Puller pulls a mob(s). He sends an inc message with a mob targeted.
MT /assists off the puler for a target. Other people may if they wish, but it's not needed.
Mob(s) arrive in camp. If the MT thinks that the one he currently has targeted is the best one to attack, he'll attack it (this will be the case 99% of the time). If not, he's free to switch targets for any of a number of reasons. Note. Even though the mob is in camp, no one should have touched it yet. No one.
MT begins attacking the mob. He will use his best agro generation weapons, and use any spells/abilities to generate agro as well. Note, that only the MT is fighting the mob at this point. The slower may have dropped a slow on it, but that's his choice (and he'll get a feel for when to do this based on the MTs agro generation capabilities).
Finally, the MT calls for assist. Now, you hit your assist key (even if you think you've already got the correct mob targeted, you hit it again to make sure). After you see the correct mob in your target box, then and only then do you start attacking the mob (with spells or melee, does't matter).
That's how you do it. Always.
Now, there's some variation. When I tank for my group, I often do not call assist if there's only one target in camp. There's no need to. I trust the group to manage their own agro. If there's problems with someone pulling off me, then I'll ask folks to wait for assist until attacking (and start giving assist messages). If there is more then one mob in camp I *always* call out an assist. Always. I don't care what mob you think we should be attacking, you need to only attack the one I've called. If you attack something else, you will ***** up.
It makes vastly more sense for *one* person to work out which mob to attack then 5. The MT is not any more likely to be a blithering idiot then anyone else in the group. When I MT, I can see which mobs the Chanter is mezzing and in which order. I can see which mobs the Puller just pulled. I know which mobs are healers or casters. I know which mobs are unmezzable. I will make the decision of which mob to attack at any given time. Not the chanter, not the puller, not the cleric. The MT. Always. If you make a habit of assisting anyone else for a target you will be the one getting people killed in your group.
Just always make a key that says: "/assist <MTname>" when you first join a group. Hit that key when your MT calls for assist (or after he's engaged the mob if he's not calling them). You will always be doing the "right thing" if you do that. Always.
Stepford wrote:
This makes more sense to me than any of the other posts on this topic, towit: when I say I have %T inc to camp, THAT should be the target, whether I'm the Main Tank or not!
That' is absolutely 100% wrong. How many times does 99% of the player population have to tell people that assisting off the puller is a bad idea before it sinks in? Don't do it. If you don't understand why, then just take my (our) word for it and do it anyway. You'll always be doing the "right thing" if you assist off the main tank. Always.
Quote:
I've found very messy situations in LDoN dungeons when the Tank decides that the "INC" is not his target, especially when the INC is not the first mob to arrive at camp!
They are messy situations only when you have people who assist off the puller instead of the main tank.
Ok. Let me explain this again (takes a deeeeep breath):
Your main tank is tanking. He's not standing around looking pretty. He's tanking. By definition, his job is to take damage. Assuming a group where everyone is trying to attack the same target (and presumably CC the rest), the mob that's being attacked will always be capable of dishing out damage to someone in the group (at a minimum).
The main tank ensures that one target is attacking him by attacking that one target. Thus, his target will *always* be able to attack him back. Always. No matter what anyone on the CC team does (ok, chain stuns excepted, but that's different). Therefore, at a minimum, the mob the MT is fighting will be able to do damage to the group. Since the whole point of CC tactics is to reduce the number of mobs able to do damage to the group as low as possible, and the MT's mob is *always* going to be able to do damage, therefore they *only* way to reduce the number of mobs doing damage to the group to the minimum (one) is to always attack the same target the MT is attacking.
There's just no other way to do this. Assising the puller only works if the MT happens to chose the same target the puller targeted. But if the MT changes his mind (caster mob comes along, there's an add in camp, or he just dislikes one more then another), you will always have two or more mobs doing damage to the group.
The MT is always right. Even if he's on the wrong target, if you attack a different one, you've just doubled the rate of damage your group is taking. He's always right. Always assist him. His target will always be unmezzed and will never be rooted out of range of melee, thus his target, no matter how he picked it, is always the correct target for everyone else to attack. End of story.
Quote:
I'm still learning, and LDoN is giving me a chance to learn about group tactics that I'm very grateful for (thank you for your patience - everyone who's endured and is enduring this learning process) but with that caveat, this makes the most sense to me.
All comments appreciated.
All comments appreciated.
Here's what makes the most sense:
Puller pulls a mob(s). He sends an inc message with a mob targeted.
MT /assists off the puler for a target. Other people may if they wish, but it's not needed.
Mob(s) arrive in camp. If the MT thinks that the one he currently has targeted is the best one to attack, he'll attack it (this will be the case 99% of the time). If not, he's free to switch targets for any of a number of reasons. Note. Even though the mob is in camp, no one should have touched it yet. No one.
MT begins attacking the mob. He will use his best agro generation weapons, and use any spells/abilities to generate agro as well. Note, that only the MT is fighting the mob at this point. The slower may have dropped a slow on it, but that's his choice (and he'll get a feel for when to do this based on the MTs agro generation capabilities).
Finally, the MT calls for assist. Now, you hit your assist key (even if you think you've already got the correct mob targeted, you hit it again to make sure). After you see the correct mob in your target box, then and only then do you start attacking the mob (with spells or melee, does't matter).
That's how you do it. Always.
Now, there's some variation. When I tank for my group, I often do not call assist if there's only one target in camp. There's no need to. I trust the group to manage their own agro. If there's problems with someone pulling off me, then I'll ask folks to wait for assist until attacking (and start giving assist messages). If there is more then one mob in camp I *always* call out an assist. Always. I don't care what mob you think we should be attacking, you need to only attack the one I've called. If you attack something else, you will ***** up.
It makes vastly more sense for *one* person to work out which mob to attack then 5. The MT is not any more likely to be a blithering idiot then anyone else in the group. When I MT, I can see which mobs the Chanter is mezzing and in which order. I can see which mobs the Puller just pulled. I know which mobs are healers or casters. I know which mobs are unmezzable. I will make the decision of which mob to attack at any given time. Not the chanter, not the puller, not the cleric. The MT. Always. If you make a habit of assisting anyone else for a target you will be the one getting people killed in your group.
Just always make a key that says: "/assist <MTname>" when you first join a group. Hit that key when your MT calls for assist (or after he's engaged the mob if he's not calling them). You will always be doing the "right thing" if you do that. Always.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
/assist <MT name> is the only way to go... wish more people would use it.
And for the Druids and Rangers: Snare/Ensnare use very little mana to cast and make make grouping life so much easier. Learn to cast snare, please.
Also, learn to kite snared mobs. Snare is going to get you agro, if the mob isn't engaged. learn to kite, don't stand there, getting hit and crying for help.
Summing up: Learn to snare and learn to kite... for the love of Tunare!
And for the Druids and Rangers: Snare/Ensnare use very little mana to cast and make make grouping life so much easier. Learn to cast snare, please.
Also, learn to kite snared mobs. Snare is going to get you agro, if the mob isn't engaged. learn to kite, don't stand there, getting hit and crying for help.
Summing up: Learn to snare and learn to kite... for the love of Tunare!
I just now bothered to read this thread.
Necromancy Lesson:
Wrong. Read the spell description, it only works up to 55. So necros can handle crowd control (live or dead) to upper 50s or so and would be mostly useless past 60 (except for travel, farming, PL, etc) I've often done all the crowd control in the 30s-40s with ST, pet tanking and root-rotting.
As for clerics, I would like to be reimbursed for peridots but never ask. In groups it's about 50-50 between those who pay on their own accord and those who don't. I've seen group members talk a stingy member into donating for the dots. As for raids, guilds will normally have peridots for clerics to buff or pay the clerics for stacks. In non-guild raids, you might need to speak up if you burn half a stack and no one is supplying you. But with MGB, it's usually one or two clerics burning through the dots.
Necromancy Lesson:
Singdall wrote:
as for CC this is the secrit most necs just dont learn about and thus i say they really dont know diddly about their class and should get da boot:
Screaming Terror
awsome spell and will work on any level mob as long as it can be mezed and is within the casters spell range.
in other words my 60th nec can use this on any mezzable mob up to level 68 if there are any that are still mezzable at that high.
Screaming Terror
awsome spell and will work on any level mob as long as it can be mezed and is within the casters spell range.
in other words my 60th nec can use this on any mezzable mob up to level 68 if there are any that are still mezzable at that high.
Wrong. Read the spell description, it only works up to 55. So necros can handle crowd control (live or dead) to upper 50s or so and would be mostly useless past 60 (except for travel, farming, PL, etc) I've often done all the crowd control in the 30s-40s with ST, pet tanking and root-rotting.
As for clerics, I would like to be reimbursed for peridots but never ask. In groups it's about 50-50 between those who pay on their own accord and those who don't. I've seen group members talk a stingy member into donating for the dots. As for raids, guilds will normally have peridots for clerics to buff or pay the clerics for stacks. In non-guild raids, you might need to speak up if you burn half a stack and no one is supplying you. But with MGB, it's usually one or two clerics burning through the dots.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Scholar
23 posts
On buffing, summoning mod rods, and the like
1. Anounce what buff you are casting to avoid potential conflicts, spell duplication, etc.
2. Make sure that everyone is in range who needs the buff.
3. You can time buffs by casting them on yourself first, then all others that need them. That way if you see the buff dropping off of yourself, you know that it will soon drop off of everyone else in your group.
4. If you are in doubt about what type of buffs people want/need, ask (e.g. Kazad vs. Virtue). Conversely, don't force people to have to request buffs that logically they will need. For example, I've had to BEG for mod rods at times from a mage in my own group, kei from the enchanter, sow from the druid, etc. This should be automatic
5.Make sure to tell people to drop any buff that will block yours if they prefer the new buff (I can't tell you how many times I've cast HoV, and then have to Single-Cast Virtue on people who did not listen when I told them to click off PoT9 if they wanted Virtue.
6. Make sure that you give/receive one or more dummy buffs when you know you will be fighting mobs that dispell (instant cast self-buff items are great for this, but make sure the self-buff is in the first spell slot prior to the start of general buffing)
7. If a person tells you that 'they don't need that group buff that you are casting because they are raid buffed', ignore them (especially if you are doing LDoN. What usually ends up happening is that their raid buffs drop in the middle of the dungeon, which means that you now have to redo the buffs for all the people who just came from that raid, which can turn into a significant amount of mana -- for LDoN you want your big-cost buffs to last the whole adventure.
8.If you are coming to join a group, don't show up and THEN realize that you need to leave and get buffs like Kei, or Virtue or what have you. Tell the person who invited you that you have to stop on the way to get kei and show up prepared.
9. If yoiu have to invis your group ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS cast see invis on everyoen first. I can't tell you how many people expect you to be able to follow them or to have a see invis item. Autofollow isn't perfect, and in fact, is a really bad idea in some places.
On courtesy:
10. This may seem obvious, but If you need to go AFK, MAKE SURE everyone knows it. I used to know this one enchanter (unfortunately a former guildmate) who would go AFK and not tell anyone she was AFK until she got back (no joke).
11. If you are in a guild that requires raiding and you know you may be called for an unscheduled raid, make sure that people you invite, or that invite you know that. Similar courtesy should be given if you are on-call for work, know you have to leave early, etc.
12. Before zoning into an LDoN dungeon ask eveyrone if they are GTG (good to go). DO NOT ask 'who ISN'T GTG' because people who aren't GTG and who are medding, etc. may actually not be quick enough on their response or may be afk, etc. Asking who IS gtg will not only tell you who is ready, but will also tell you who may be too preocupied (creating macros, swapping spells, in tell-hell, etc.) to respond, and thus probably aren't ready.
13. Not exactly a courtesy thing, but When giving directions, ALWAYS use North, South, East, and West, instead of right, left, back, and straight ahead. I recently got killed in Ssra by directions that told me to turn left because he meant HIS left and not mine.
14. Your casters (clerics in particular) should not have to fight to get reimbursed for their spell components when they've used a heckuva lot of them, and the loot is good enough to pay their cost; most groups are good about this bur every now and again I get a yelled at for even suggesting that the group should share in the cost. Usually it's some self-serving logician who claims that my split should be enough, and that reimbursment is in 'guild groups only' and that they had to spend a ton on their armor for which the entire group was the beneficiary. Funny how they conveniently neglect to mention how their armor wasn't actually consumed by its use.
-Haldur
65 Cleric of Drinal
1. Anounce what buff you are casting to avoid potential conflicts, spell duplication, etc.
2. Make sure that everyone is in range who needs the buff.
3. You can time buffs by casting them on yourself first, then all others that need them. That way if you see the buff dropping off of yourself, you know that it will soon drop off of everyone else in your group.
4. If you are in doubt about what type of buffs people want/need, ask (e.g. Kazad vs. Virtue). Conversely, don't force people to have to request buffs that logically they will need. For example, I've had to BEG for mod rods at times from a mage in my own group, kei from the enchanter, sow from the druid, etc. This should be automatic
5.Make sure to tell people to drop any buff that will block yours if they prefer the new buff (I can't tell you how many times I've cast HoV, and then have to Single-Cast Virtue on people who did not listen when I told them to click off PoT9 if they wanted Virtue.
6. Make sure that you give/receive one or more dummy buffs when you know you will be fighting mobs that dispell (instant cast self-buff items are great for this, but make sure the self-buff is in the first spell slot prior to the start of general buffing)
7. If a person tells you that 'they don't need that group buff that you are casting because they are raid buffed', ignore them (especially if you are doing LDoN. What usually ends up happening is that their raid buffs drop in the middle of the dungeon, which means that you now have to redo the buffs for all the people who just came from that raid, which can turn into a significant amount of mana -- for LDoN you want your big-cost buffs to last the whole adventure.
8.If you are coming to join a group, don't show up and THEN realize that you need to leave and get buffs like Kei, or Virtue or what have you. Tell the person who invited you that you have to stop on the way to get kei and show up prepared.
9. If yoiu have to invis your group ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS cast see invis on everyoen first. I can't tell you how many people expect you to be able to follow them or to have a see invis item. Autofollow isn't perfect, and in fact, is a really bad idea in some places.
On courtesy:
10. This may seem obvious, but If you need to go AFK, MAKE SURE everyone knows it. I used to know this one enchanter (unfortunately a former guildmate) who would go AFK and not tell anyone she was AFK until she got back (no joke).
11. If you are in a guild that requires raiding and you know you may be called for an unscheduled raid, make sure that people you invite, or that invite you know that. Similar courtesy should be given if you are on-call for work, know you have to leave early, etc.
12. Before zoning into an LDoN dungeon ask eveyrone if they are GTG (good to go). DO NOT ask 'who ISN'T GTG' because people who aren't GTG and who are medding, etc. may actually not be quick enough on their response or may be afk, etc. Asking who IS gtg will not only tell you who is ready, but will also tell you who may be too preocupied (creating macros, swapping spells, in tell-hell, etc.) to respond, and thus probably aren't ready.
13. Not exactly a courtesy thing, but When giving directions, ALWAYS use North, South, East, and West, instead of right, left, back, and straight ahead. I recently got killed in Ssra by directions that told me to turn left because he meant HIS left and not mine.
14. Your casters (clerics in particular) should not have to fight to get reimbursed for their spell components when they've used a heckuva lot of them, and the loot is good enough to pay their cost; most groups are good about this bur every now and again I get a yelled at for even suggesting that the group should share in the cost. Usually it's some self-serving logician who claims that my split should be enough, and that reimbursment is in 'guild groups only' and that they had to spend a ton on their armor for which the entire group was the beneficiary. Funny how they conveniently neglect to mention how their armor wasn't actually consumed by its use.
-Haldur
65 Cleric of Drinal
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