I like what you are doing here. This reminds me a lot of the old Copeland's program. Maybe if someone from Brell knows where Cope is at now, he can give you some ideas.
But, when I was first made a list of items for my monk by Weapon Efficiency, I did not agree with the search. It had listed for primary the Stone Etched Mallet 26/28 over my Battle Fists 18/20. I agreed that the ratio was better...but not that it was more efficient. Next, I did a search for off hand efficiency. The top ten weapons were all still in the same order. This lead me to believe that there was something wrong with your calculations. Later, reading the posts here, I could not argue with the basis that you had...so I searched a little more.
Being a monk from pre-kunark...I left all the fancy new items aside, and compared the old standard of Jade Mace 9/18 to the Knuckle Dusters 14/28. These have the same ratio, but it's clear to any melee that the 9/18 is better for primary. The search that I got on Kunark only weapons showed the Knuckle Dusters above the Jade Mace...but I think they were actually supposed to be tied..because there were 11/22's and 10/20's right in the middle of these.
When I opened the link of the weapons, I found the following stats
Knuckle Dusters 14/28 Efficiency 73
Jade Mace 9/18 Efficiency 86
So, the efficiency for the Jade Mace is actually higher...it's just the search engine that is incorrect. It is not listed them by Efficiency...it's still listing by ratio.
So, I went back to some PoP weapons that I had questions on.
Stone Etched Mallet 26/28 116
Battle Fists 18/20 Efficiency 122
Again, the Battle Fists are given a higher Efficiency rating, but are listed below the Mallet.
Hopefully, if this can be worked out, people will see the new system working.
Upgrades to the Upgrader
I've enhanced the way that the site handles weapons, as items.
All users will notice this when viewing an item, we've added the Damage Bonus field - which is based off the Delay of the item using the charts found on Lucy. Using this value, and the damage and delay of the weapon, we've also added a new field: Comparative Efficiency.
Comparative efficiency is not a DPS value. It is intended as a way of relatively comparing the damage done by weapons using their base stats alone. The effect is not used in calculation at all. (mostly due to the proc-rate of an item being a server-side, "hidden" value) Offhand efficiency is a similair value, scaled down to represent the lack of the damage bonus in off hand weapons, and a roughly 62% chance to Dual Wield at level 65.
Since simple ratio alone doesn't always tell which is the better (more damaging) weapon, this field should help in that regard.
Since different classes have different skill level caps, special attacks and damage tables, this number cannot be used to compare items across classes. A rogue will obviously do more damage with a good piercer than a warrior will.
Premium users have access to search on this calculated field, in both the advanced search and the equipment upgrader - which should make finding weapons for your character much easier.
Below is the sample output looking for upgrades to the Acrylia Handled Broadsword, weighing Efficiency as twice as important as an equal number of hitpoints, for a level 65 warrior.
As always, feedback is welcome.
--Illia
For the Primary slot:
You are wearing Acrylia Handled Broadsword Rated: 368.42
You are wearing Acrylia Handled Broadsword Rated: 368.42
| Name | Stats | Zone | Level | Price |
 Acrylia Handled Broadsword | Wpn 134, Dmg 16, Dly 19. +13 Strength +20 Stamina +13 Dexterity +15 Resist Magic +15 Resist Fire +15 Resist Cold +100 Hit Points +2.00 Weight Effect: Serpent's Bite | Ssraeshza Temple | 58 | N/A |
| Keep | Score | Name | Stats | Zone | Level | Price |
| 544.35 |  Darkblade of the Warlord | Wpn 167, Dmg 34, Dly 31. +45 Armor Class +20 Strength +25 Stamina +20 Dexterity +20 Resist Fire +20 Resist Cold +15 Resist Disease +225 Hit Points +2.50 Weight Effect: Anger | Plane of Time | 65 | N/A | |
| 536.67 | Hammer of the Timeweaver | Wpn 137, Dmg 26, Dly 24. +25 Armor Class +25 Strength +20 Stamina +20 Dexterity +15 Wisdom +15 Intelligence +15 Charisma +12 Resist Magic +12 Resist Fire +12 Resist Cold +12 Resist Poison +12 Resist Disease +220 Hit Points +200 Mana +1.00 Weight Effect: Call of Time | Plane of Time | 65 | N/A | |
| 480.00 | Edge of Eternity | Wpn 135, Dmg 20, Dly 20. +20 Armor Class +20 Strength +18 Stamina +25 Dexterity +10 Wisdom +10 Intelligence +18 Resist Magic +18 Resist Fire +18 Resist Cold +180 Hit Points +165 Mana +1.00 Weight Effect: Time Snap | Plane of Time | 65 | N/A | |
| 451.30 | Mace of the Ancients | Wpn 126, Dmg 22, Dly 23. +15 Armor Class +18 Strength +25 Dexterity +25 Wisdom +10 Resist Magic +10 Resist Fire +10 Resist Cold +160 Hit Points +155 Mana +0.10 Weight Effect: Ancient Call | Plane of Time | N/A | ||
| 448.33 | Sword of Primordial Power | Wpn 156, Dmg 29, Dly 30. +20 Armor Class +22 Strength +20 Stamina +18 Dexterity +15 Wisdom +7 Resist Magic +7 Resist Fire +7 Resist Cold +7 Resist Poison +20 Resist Disease +155 Hit Points +135 Mana +0.80 Weight Effect: Runic | Ragrax, Stronghold of the Twelve | 65 | N/A | |
| 434.47 |  Ifir, Dagger of Fire | Wpn 144, Dmg 18, Dly 19. +15 Armor Class +20 Strength +20 Stamina +20 Dexterity +20 Wisdom +25 Resist Cold +10 Resist Poison +25 Resist Disease +145 Hit Points +130 Mana +1.30 Weight Effect: Flame of the Efreeti | Doomfire, The Burning Lands | 65 | N/A | |
| 430.95 | Cudgel of Wrecking | Wpn 123, Dmg 19, Dly 21. +15 Armor Class +15 Stamina +20 Agility +15 Wisdom +15 Intelligence +20 Resist Magic +20 Resist Fire +10 Resist Cold +150 Hit Points +140 Mana +1.50 Weight Effect: Soul Leech | Plane of Time | N/A | ||
| 430.00 | Dagger of Distraction | Wpn 120, Dmg 17, Dly 20. +15 Armor Class +20 Stamina +20 Dexterity +20 Intelligence +18 Resist Fire +18 Resist Cold +18 Resist Disease +160 Hit Points +145 Mana +1.20 Weight Effect: Confusing Whisper | Plane of Time | 65 | N/A | |
| 430.00 | Hammer of Crushing Waves | Wpn 125, Dmg 18, Dly 20. +18 Armor Class +20 Strength +10 Stamina +15 Agility +15 Dexterity +25 Resist Fire +15 Resist Cold +15 Resist Poison +150 Hit Points +125 Mana +1.00 Weight Effect: Wrath of Ice | Reef of Coirnav | 65 | N/A | |
| 420.71 | Stone Etched Mallet | Wpn 155, Dmg 26, Dly 28. +15 Armor Class +20 Strength +10 Stamina +15 Dexterity +15 Wisdom +25 Resist Magic +25 Resist Disease +135 Hit Points +135 Mana +0.10 Weight Effect: Rune II | Vegarlson, the Earthen Badlands | N/A | ||
| 418.95 | Reinforced Mephit Talon | Wpn 139, Dmg 17, Dly 19. +10 Armor Class +20 Strength +20 Stamina +10 Dexterity +15 Intelligence +15 Charisma +18 Resist Magic +18 Resist Poison +18 Resist Disease +140 Hit Points +140 Mana +2.00 Weight Effect: Bite of Bertoxxulous | Ragrax, Stronghold of the Twelve | N/A | ||
| 418.95 | Ivory Hilted Cleaver | Wpn 139, Dmg 17, Dly 19. +20 Strength +20 Stamina +15 Agility +15 Dexterity +15 Wisdom +12 Resist Fire +12 Resist Cold +12 Resist Poison +12 Resist Disease +140 Hit Points +135 Mana +1.20 Weight Effect: Wrath of Ice | Eryslai, the Kingdom of Wind | 65 | N/A | |
| 413.95 | The Rhythm of Xegony | Wpn 139, Dmg 17, Dly 19. +15 Armor Class +10 Strength +15 Stamina +10 Dexterity +15 Intelligence +20 Charisma +10 Resist Magic +10 Resist Fire +10 Resist Cold +10 Resist Poison +10 Resist Disease +135 Hit Points +135 Mana +1.50 Weight Effect: Sting of Ayonae | Eryslai, the Kingdom of Wind | N/A | ||
| 410.45 | Ethereal Destroyer | Wpn 104, Dmg 16, Dly 22. +20 Armor Class +20 Strength +20 Stamina +25 Agility +25 Resist Cold +25 Resist Disease +165 Hit Points +150 Mana +2.00 Weight Effect: Time Lapse | Plane of Time | N/A | ||
| 403.42 | Gold Runed Mithril Knife | Wpn 134, Dmg 16, Dly 19. +15 Armor Class +18 Strength +10 Stamina +18 Dexterity +5 Resist Magic +25 Resist Cold +5 Resist Poison +5 Resist Disease +135 Hit Points +0.70 Weight Effect: Wrath of Fire | Tower of Solusek Ro | 65 | N/A | |
| 395.00 | Jagged Shard of Frozen Flame | Wpn 120, Dmg 17, Dly 20. +15 Strength +10 Stamina +15 Agility +7 Resist Magic +7 Resist Fire +20 Resist Cold +7 Resist Poison +7 Resist Disease +125 Hit Points +100 Mana +2.00 Weight Effect: Ember Strike | Tower of Solusek Ro | 65 | N/A | |
| 395.00 | Double Edged Stormblade | Wpn 120, Dmg 17, Dly 20. +15 Strength +10 Stamina +15 Agility +13 Wisdom +13 Intelligence +15 Resist Fire +10 Resist Cold +125 Hit Points +75 Mana +2.50 Weight Effect: Wrath of Wind | Bastion of Thunder | 61 | N/A | |
| 385.00 | Bloodfrenzy | Wpn 114, Dmg 16, Dly 20. +15 Strength +15 Stamina +15 Agility +15 Dexterity +20 Resist Magic +7 Resist Fire +7 Resist Cold +7 Resist Poison +7 Resist Disease +125 Hit Points +1.00 Weight Effect: Enraging Blow | Ssraeshza Temple | 58 | N/A | |
| 382.89 | Obsidian Battle Sword | Wpn 128, Dmg 15, Dly 19. +10 Armor Class +12 Strength +13 Stamina +7 Dexterity +5 Resist Magic +20 Resist Cold +125 Hit Points +1.50 Weight Effect: Call of Battle | Doomfire, The Burning Lands | 65 | N/A | |
| 375.00 | The Rotting Fist | Wpn 114, Dmg 16, Dly 20. +8 Stamina +12 Agility +8 Dexterity +12 Wisdom +5 Resist Magic +5 Resist Fire +5 Resist Cold +5 Resist Poison +5 Resist Disease +115 Hit Points +85 Mana +1.50 Weight Effect: Scourge | Ruins of Lxanvom | 65 | N/A |
Comments
Anonymous
Is it just me, or does anyone else just get a weapon because it has high damage, low delay, and a cool name...? I don't really understand all this math stuff, I just know that my Savage Stone Axe (33/36) works just dandy - regardless of all these silly numbers. To be blunt, aren't you guys getting a little obsessed.........?
Just my 2cp
Mykala
Bringing Death to Halflings for 56 Levels of Hell...
Just my 2cp
Mykala
Bringing Death to Halflings for 56 Levels of Hell...
Scholar
45 posts
is it obsession to want to know the facts? I consider it just another way to judge an items value. consider the cleric summoned hammers for instance. they have awesome stats (14/18 for the summoned items) but because its a cleric wielding it, the final DPS is only about 5 from melee. Knowing that the proc is the other 30DPS means for a cleric, knowing that your better off to chase DEX items to get the proc rate up than haste items to try to change that 5DPS to 7.
Its not collecting the information, its using it.
Its not collecting the information, its using it.
16 posts
This is very nice! I think I am going to have to play with it some before I totally understand it.
I also noticed that effects are now listed, too! I am getting very impressed.
(But, I'm still waiting on being able to do break the primary slot search down into 1 hand OR 2 hand weaps and items.)
8~)
Ruding Cove
Azure Guard
Veeshan
I also noticed that effects are now listed, too! I am getting very impressed.
(But, I'm still waiting on being able to do break the primary slot search down into 1 hand OR 2 hand weaps and items.)
8~)
Ruding Cove
Azure Guard
Veeshan
Like you said, it doesn't take into account the proc of the weapon or any special affects.
Naturally, as a Rogue, the first item I looked at was how Ragebringer (epic) compared to other piercers. By your calculations Ragebringer has an efficiency of 86. But if you factor in the 40% haste when held the delay changes. With the new delay (20) the efficiency now becomes 107.5. This still does not take into account the +40 ATK modifier (not a proc).
So, I would say that this is a great idea but folks who use the Weapon Efficiency rating system must take into account that weapons with effects or procs are being underrated.
Naturally, as a Rogue, the first item I looked at was how Ragebringer (epic) compared to other piercers. By your calculations Ragebringer has an efficiency of 86. But if you factor in the 40% haste when held the delay changes. With the new delay (20) the efficiency now becomes 107.5. This still does not take into account the +40 ATK modifier (not a proc).
So, I would say that this is a great idea but folks who use the Weapon Efficiency rating system must take into account that weapons with effects or procs are being underrated.
If you have any suggestions as to how to numerically weigh one proc or effect against another, I'm all ears.
--Illia
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
If it's a direct damage proc, then when comparing one-shot proc damage of two different weapons, you're comparing apples to apples. Frequency of the proc is dependent on too many unknowns, both character-based (i.e. dexterity) and server-side (who knows?), so assume a fixed number of procs in a fixed amount of time.
Damage over time is tougher, not to compare against other DoTs, which is again apples to apples, but rather against DD procs. Perhaps take initial damage (if any), plus some (relatively small) number of instances of the DoT damage? Obviously in a longer fight, the DoT is worth more, but then again, in a longer fight a DD should proc more... Maybe this balances out.
In rereading that, I see that what I'm alluding to is basically to calculate a DPS value for the weapon, based on a number of assumptions and simplifications. Assume the weapon hits every time and always procs. Sort of an "idealized" DPS that no one would actually get, but would at least give you a basis for comparison.
Non-damage procs can probably be ignored for purposes of weapon comparison. I think most players would put those in the "yah that's interesting, but it's not going to kill the creature faster" category anyway.
Damage over time is tougher, not to compare against other DoTs, which is again apples to apples, but rather against DD procs. Perhaps take initial damage (if any), plus some (relatively small) number of instances of the DoT damage? Obviously in a longer fight, the DoT is worth more, but then again, in a longer fight a DD should proc more... Maybe this balances out.
In rereading that, I see that what I'm alluding to is basically to calculate a DPS value for the weapon, based on a number of assumptions and simplifications. Assume the weapon hits every time and always procs. Sort of an "idealized" DPS that no one would actually get, but would at least give you a basis for comparison.
Non-damage procs can probably be ignored for purposes of weapon comparison. I think most players would put those in the "yah that's interesting, but it's not going to kill the creature faster" category anyway.
Haste affects are easy enough if you go with assumption that the weapon will be the best Haste item in the PC's inventory. Then the delay changes to (Old Delay)/(1+(haste/100))
One thing I can say is that with Gomdurig (115 DD proc) in the main hand and a Blood Point (80 DD proc) in the secondary the procs create approximatley 3% of the total damage over time dealt by my 52 rogue. Other factors that affect the proc rate appear to be resistance of the mob, PC's DEX and PC level vs the minimum required level of the weapon.
So, most proc damage effects will have a small influence. Those weapons that have haste effects on the wielder, however, should likely be valued much higher since the delay can be substantially shifted.
Other effects are of a more subjective value. The value of the effect depends on the circumstances of the wielder. For example, a Locustlure is nice if you don't have an Enchanter, Bard or Shaman in your group. If you do then the proc effect is nearly useless since their spells are better than the proc effect.
Certainly, I understand your position. I guess my main concern is that items with Haste effects and ATK bonus effects (ie Vengence) that are permanent and not procs will significantly change the value of a weapon's efficiency.
One thing I can say is that with Gomdurig (115 DD proc) in the main hand and a Blood Point (80 DD proc) in the secondary the procs create approximatley 3% of the total damage over time dealt by my 52 rogue. Other factors that affect the proc rate appear to be resistance of the mob, PC's DEX and PC level vs the minimum required level of the weapon.
So, most proc damage effects will have a small influence. Those weapons that have haste effects on the wielder, however, should likely be valued much higher since the delay can be substantially shifted.
Other effects are of a more subjective value. The value of the effect depends on the circumstances of the wielder. For example, a Locustlure is nice if you don't have an Enchanter, Bard or Shaman in your group. If you do then the proc effect is nearly useless since their spells are better than the proc effect.
Certainly, I understand your position. I guess my main concern is that items with Haste effects and ATK bonus effects (ie Vengence) that are permanent and not procs will significantly change the value of a weapon's efficiency.
Well, I'm adding two indexes to the advanced search as well. Haste% value and I'll add ATK as well. (similair to HP Regen and and Mana regen which you can already search on)
I think the item upgrader itself can only go so far - once you're looking specifically for items with X effect - it's going to break.
I think the item upgrader itself can only go so far - once you're looking specifically for items with X effect - it's going to break.
--Illia
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Anonymous
You are reading the tables at lucy incorrectly for 1 handed weapons. The dmg bonus for 1 handed weapons in the primary hand at lvl 65 is 13. The very first row on lucy's dmg bonus table gives the values for all 1 handed weapons. All the other tables are for 2 handed weapons.
For instance, the Acrylia Handled Broadsword does not have a dmg bonus of 19, but rather a dmg bonus of 13.
Also, if it would be ok, it would be nice to see the formulas you used to arrive at the dmg efficiency.
For instance, the Acrylia Handled Broadsword does not have a dmg bonus of 19, but rather a dmg bonus of 13.
Also, if it would be ok, it would be nice to see the formulas you used to arrive at the dmg efficiency.
fixing - code problem on the backend.. 1hs is not equal to "one hand slash"... Whoops.
The formulae are here
eff = (((damage * 2) + bonus) / delay) * 50
off = (((damage * 2) / delay) * 50 * 0.62
Edited, Thu Aug 14 21:04:24 2003
The formulae are here
eff = (((damage * 2) + bonus) / delay) * 50
off = (((damage * 2) / delay) * 50 * 0.62
Edited, Thu Aug 14 21:04:24 2003
--Illia
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
I'm very confused. :)
For the Acrylia Handled Broadsword:
Score: 368.42, Dmg 16, dly19
Using the formula: (((dmg*2)+bonus)/dly)*50
and the data above you get:
368.42=((16*2)+bonus)/19)*50
therefore
bonus = 108
is that correct or is my maths crazed?
For the Acrylia Handled Broadsword:
Score: 368.42, Dmg 16, dly19
Using the formula: (((dmg*2)+bonus)/dly)*50
and the data above you get:
368.42=((16*2)+bonus)/19)*50
therefore
bonus = 108
is that correct or is my maths crazed?
Yeah, as Illia said, that 368 is a weighted score value taken into account all the effects the user chooses. In this case 2 * weapon efficiency (which is the first stat labled in the description - wpn 134) = 268. Then add to that the 1* hp(100) to come to the weapon score of 368. Using a wpn score of 134, working backwards gives you a dmg bonus of 19, which was what was originally listed for this weap. Another post points out that the bonus is actually 13, so wpn score now shows 118 on the live description page for the weap.
That weapon score is customizable to bring in specifically what you are looking for. In the example above, only wpn and hp are considered. The Acrylia sword has a score of 368 and the Rotting Fist has a score of 375, so the Rotting Fist is considered an upgrade. If, however, you were also interested in STA and gave it a weighted score of 5 per sta, then:
Acrylia would now get a score of 468 (+ 20 sta * 5)
Rotting Fist would get a score of 415(+8 sta * 5)
The Rotting Fist would no longer be considered an upgrade and would not be shown on the list.
Edited, Fri Aug 15 15:17:00 2003
That weapon score is customizable to bring in specifically what you are looking for. In the example above, only wpn and hp are considered. The Acrylia sword has a score of 368 and the Rotting Fist has a score of 375, so the Rotting Fist is considered an upgrade. If, however, you were also interested in STA and gave it a weighted score of 5 per sta, then:
Acrylia would now get a score of 468 (+ 20 sta * 5)
Rotting Fist would get a score of 415(+8 sta * 5)
The Rotting Fist would no longer be considered an upgrade and would not be shown on the list.
Edited, Fri Aug 15 15:17:00 2003
I got pretty much the same thing (107.9996)
{[(16*2)+bonus]/19}*50=368.42
[(16*2)+bonus)/19 = 7.3684
(16*2)+bonus=139.9996
32+bonus = 139.9996
bonus = 107.9996
Nice weapon...
{[(16*2)+bonus]/19}*50=368.42
[(16*2)+bonus)/19 = 7.3684
(16*2)+bonus=139.9996
32+bonus = 139.9996
bonus = 107.9996
Nice weapon...
No, the "score" when weighting is also multiplied by your mutlipier you assign to it. In the example posted above it was a 2x multiplier. Additionally - the database uses a slightly different value for bonus when ordering, than the system uses for display. I'm still playing with the ordering query to make it closer to the displayed value. also in the above example, it was weapon eff *2 + hp *1 so there's 100 points of HP in the score.
Edited, Fri Aug 15 12:58:33 2003
Edited, Fri Aug 15 12:58:33 2003
--Illia
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Fumus, draco magus incoluit mare.
Myrx - 70 Holy Priest, Myr - 70 Resto Shaman, Gryd - 70 Prot Warrior
Scholar
35 posts
Saves me from having to fiddle with tons of spreadsheets, wonderful!
#Anonymous,
Posted: Aug 14 2003 at 6:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) BAHHHHAAHAHAHhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA
Free account required to post
You must log in or create an account to post messages.© 2024 Fanbyte LLC