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#1 Sep 03 2020 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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The old threads get so stale - like my slowly eaten box of cereal. It's still edible, but it tastes and feels like a cardboard cupboard.

We're closing in on the election. Some say it is the most important election of a lifetime. What will be the most detrimental short term fix that trump will try in an attempt to buy votes?

Anyone watching Lovecraft Country? I've been enjoying it.
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#2 Sep 03 2020 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I doubt Trump will buy many votes. Not for lack of trying but he's finding his options there limited. The payroll tax deduction is being ignored by most people (my own company's owner called it "Fucking stupid") as ill-conceived and detrimental to their companies. The CDC tried to make press by warning states to be ready to distribute a vaccine by late October but, by that time, a whole lot of people will have already voted and I doubt anyone is going to say "Wow, an experimental and untested vaccine? Sign me up and change my vote!"

Instead, Trump and the GOP will continue to do what they have been doing -- engaging in voter suppression and feeding Trump's disciples the idea that he can only lose if there's fraud.
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#3 Sep 08 2020 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
We're closing in on the election. Some say it is the most important election of a lifetime. What will be the most detrimental short term fix that trump will try in an attempt to buy votes?


Why not ask what Biden and team would do as well? You know, if we want a balanced discussion?

I think it's less a matter of "short term fix", but "narrative". As Joph mentioned, Trump pushing a vaccine by late October isn't likely to result in folks saying "OMG! We're saved!". However, the narrative Trumps going for is that he's trying to end lockdowns as quickly as possible via multiple methods, and trying to contrast that by defining Biden as wanting folks to be stuck in their houses forever. How that plays off depends on how many people are so terrified of the virus that they want to stay locked away to "be safe", versus how many are experiencing severe covid fatigue and just want any sign that there's a light at the end of the tunnel sometime soon.

While the whole mail. in ballot thing is a concern among the Right, in terms of actual strategy, the bigger thing is that it looks like Biden is trying to just run out the clock on Covid and Riots, and hope that most people blame Trump for how terrible things are. I suspect that will backfire (is already backfiring IMO), but we won't know for sure until the votes start coming in. The more obvious it becomes that the Dems are actively working to string out the pain for the people, the more they shift to blaming the Dems for that pain.



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Anyone watching Lovecraft Country? I've been enjoying it.


Yeah. Noticed it when it first came out, but had missed the first episode. Kept meaning to catch up, but for some stupid reason HBO doesn't include it on their on-demand series list (really HBO?). Could be my cable provider that is being a jerk. Anywho, finally found a day when they were marathoning all four of the released episodes, and caught them all (yeah, long binge over this holiday weekend).

I'm enjoying it. I kinda wish it had more of a traditional Lovecraft "cultists trying to do something horrific" feel to it and less of a "white folks with spells doing something that's maybe not really horrific from a Lovecraftian pov". Not sure how many episodes are in the series, but at four in, it's still not really clear what the objectives of the bad guys are, or who the bad guys actually are anyway. I have a concern that this will be like Watchmen, where they feel obligated by having a primarily black cast to make "racism" both the primary motivation and the enemy to be fought. Given that as far as I can tell the primary concern driving the main characters is that the white spell users are trying to collect a full set of a book of names which will give them some unspecified super powers (more than they already have I guess?), and that since they are white, this must be bad for them (cause they're black). Frankly, I'll be disappointed if that turns out to be the case.

So I'm hopeful. But pretty much prepared for this to be yet another one-note story that fails to actually live up to potential out of a need to address current social activism. It's just frustrating that you're literally telling a story that has the potential to show that there really are things much much worse than mere human bigotry, and yet I suspect it'll fail to do that. Be wonderful if they could have the white folks and the black folks both realize this and join together to fight something really horrific and world ending. Was hoping for it in Watchmen and didn't get it. Maybe this time they will?

If there's ever a background to tell that kind of story, it's in a Lovecraft based story. So... fingers crossed.
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#4 Sep 08 2020 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
While the whole mail. in ballot thing is a concern among the Right, in terms of actual strategy, the bigger thing is that it looks like Biden is trying to just run out the clock on Covid and Riots, and hope that most people blame Trump for how terrible things are.
No...the bigger thing is dismantling the US Postal Service.
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#5 Sep 08 2020 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
We're closing in on the election. Some say it is the most important election of a lifetime. What will be the most detrimental short term fix that trump will try in an attempt to buy votes?

Why not ask what Biden and team would do as well? You know, if we want a balanced discussion?

Probably because one party is a private citizen with no governmental power right now and the other party is the President of the United States? One person can actually direct arms of the government to do short-sighted and detrimental things (like, say, the payroll tax deferral or having the FDA skip important testing for the "win" of a vaccine before election day) and the other can... uhh... say things you don't like?

Edited, Sep 8th 2020 7:26pm by Jophiel
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#6 Sep 10 2020 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
But pretty much prepared for this to be yet another one-note story that fails to actually live up to potential out of a need to address current social activism. It's just frustrating that you're literally telling a story that has the potential to show that there really are things much much worse than mere human bigotry
I had assumed that the series was written as it was in response to Lovecraft's overt and over-the-top racism and superiority complex. I like that the story is based on real historical evilness (however ignorant it may have been at the time).

What's worse than human bigotry?
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#7 Sep 10 2020 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
We're closing in on the election. Some say it is the most important election of a lifetime. What will be the most detrimental short term fix that trump will try in an attempt to buy votes?

Why not ask what Biden and team would do as well? You know, if we want a balanced discussion?

Probably because one party is a private citizen with no governmental power....]

Pretty much this. When I had written this post Trump was busy using his office and our tax money to campaign.

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#8 Sep 11 2020 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Why not ask what Biden and team would do as well? You know, if we want a balanced discussion?

Probably because one party is a private citizen with no governmental power right now and the other party is the President of the United States? One person can actually direct arms of the government to do short-sighted and detrimental things (like, say, the payroll tax deferral or having the FDA skip important testing for the "win" of a vaccine before election day) and the other can... uhh... say things you don't like?


Your apparent belief that elected politicians should refrain from doing things that benefit people because they might view said politician positively and may in turn vote to re-elect them aside, I was going more with the "team" side of things. While Biden himself can't do much, his party does control the House, and has a filibuster power in the Senate, which they have been using to block things like aid money to people suffering from covid related economic issues. Similarly, the Dems have governors and mayors who seem more than willing to further the pain for the people by either allowing riots to continue far past the point they should have been shut down or enforcing painful and often arbitrary restrictions on their citizens in response to covid-19.

Surely you've noticed this strategy, right? It's entirely about making people suffer and getting their friends in the media to blame Trump for it. Hence my comment about running out the clock on covid and riots. I don't know how well this strategy will work, but it's clear that they are trying it.

Kinda says everything though when a party believes that their best chance to win an election is to inflict pain and suffering on the population. Then again, I've been talking about this flaw in the Dems platform for as long as I've been posting here. I just never thought I'd see them be so openly brazen about it.
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#9 Sep 11 2020 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I have brain damage

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#10 Sep 11 2020 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But pretty much prepared for this to be yet another one-note story that fails to actually live up to potential out of a need to address current social activism. It's just frustrating that you're literally telling a story that has the potential to show that there really are things much much worse than mere human bigotry
I had assumed that the series was written as it was in response to Lovecraft's overt and over-the-top racism and superiority complex. I like that the story is based on real historical evilness (however ignorant it may have been at the time).


Sure. I get that. But you have to separate the story from the author who wrote it, else you'll likely have to condemn a large portion of 19th and early 20th century works. Defining the entire man and his works based on essentially one letter he wrote as a younger man (on views of race that were likely forced upon him by his parents and towards which he noticeably softened over his life) is a bit silly. His horror isn't specifically about race either, but generally treats humanity as a whole as a fleeting thing to be swept away at the next unlucky act of more powerful beings. A common theme is that those who realize this fact will often go insane from that knowledge of just how insignificant they are. Hardly a theme of superiority, by anyone.

Yes. His heroes (if you can call them that) are universally white males, but you could level that accusation at virtually all white male writers of the time. And yes, the villains (when there are villains and they are human at all) are often some tribal folks somewhere remote, but it's less about their race than that they are under some evil influence and actively seek to worship and serve horrific things that would destroy us all. Again, sadly, pretty common in literature of the time, so somewhat silly to single out Lovecraft or his works.

I do agree that casting black leads to be the heroes is a great turnaround from that old trope. I not only have no issue with it, I really like it. And I don't mind at all putting in place issues with racism facing blacks at the time (the travel books, dangers in "sundown towns, etc). But at the end of all that, it should still be a Lovecraft style horror story. So far, that's just been the backdrop to beat us over the head with all the nasty racism going on. Yeah, we get it. Can we get to the story now? I just fear that the need to tell the story of historical racism will supplant any other story going on and make it not shine. It's possible to have a story with black leads, and put racial issues in the story as well, while still telling an story that isn't itself inherently about race or racism. Black people can save the day against shoggoths and nightgaunts, and whatever other horrors may exist, just as well as white folk. They are just as capable of figuring out the clues, following the signs, and rooting out the evil plots going on as anyone else. But if you over-emphasize the racism around them, then it becomes telling the story of black victim hood, and not of black heroism.

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What's worse than human bigotry?


Have you read any Lovecraft? I'm pretty sure "Old one summoned, Earth swallowed up whole. Humanity eaten as a light snack along the way. The end." is far worse than human bigotry. And that's just one of the quick and relatively painless possible endings present in his stories.
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#11 Sep 11 2020 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have brain damage



You know, if you guys on the left don't stop burying your heads in the sand and just ignoring/ridiculing anyone from the right who says something you disagree with, you be left wondering in November why Trump just won re-election. Maybe listen to what I'm saying? Because the stuff I just wrote is not some fringe right wing thing. This is how an increasing number of people are viewing the actions of Trump versus those who just want him removed at any cost. Ignoring that isn't a good strategy.

Remember "Basket of Deplorables"? The Dems are doing it again. You can't just dismiss people who don't agree with you. You should, at a bare minimum, attempt to understand both *what* their position is and *why*they hold it. Just assuming those people are stupid, ignorant, bigoted, etc is the wrong approach. You're literally pushing people away from your ever shrinking echo chamber.
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#12 Sep 11 2020 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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No one on here has any kind of influence over the vote whatsoever, dunderhead.
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#13 Sep 11 2020 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
pay attention to me, now!

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#14 Sep 12 2020 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Your apparent belief that elected politicians should refrain from doing things that benefit people because they might view said politician positively...

I like this post because I can actually visualize you sitting there and realizing "Shit, yeah, me saying that Biden is going to buy votes like that made no sense at all... fuck... think... think..." then settling on "But Pelosi hasn't accepted the White House's demands on a Covid bill so she's hurting people and that's like buying votes so I'll pretend that I always meant that when I demanded that we talk about how Biden is going to buy votes! Hah, got'em again, Gbaji! No wonder my third grade teacher said I was the smartest kid in the world..."

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Kinda says everything though when a party believes that their best chance to win an election is to inflict pain and suffering on the population

Yawn. Rain. Wedding Day. *waves hand in dismissive circular motion*

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You can't just dismiss people who don't agree with you. You should, at a bare minimum, attempt to understand both *what* their position is and *why*they hold it. Just assuming those people are stupid, ignorant, bigoted, etc is the wrong approach.

"Those people just want a free ice cream pony from Santa Claus, that's why they're asking for marriage equality/equal rights/healthcare/etc..."


Edited, Sep 12th 2020 1:51pm by Jophiel
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#15 Sep 14 2020 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Your apparent belief that elected politicians should refrain from doing things that benefit people because they might view said politician positively...

I like this post because I can actually visualize you sitting there and realizing "Shit, yeah, me saying that Biden is going to buy votes like that made no sense at all... fuck... think... think..." then settling on "But Pelosi hasn't accepted the White House's demands on a Covid bill so she's hurting people and that's like buying votes so I'll pretend that I always meant that when I demanded that we talk about how Biden is going to buy votes! Hah, got'em again, Gbaji! No wonder my third grade teacher said I was the smartest kid in the world..."


I said "Biden and team", and made it very clear that I was talking about policies and actions to force people to stay trapped in their homes, prevent their businesses from opening up, keep riots and looting going as long as possible, etc. Obviously, Biden is not personally doing any of that. But Biden isn't doing a whole lot right now anyway. It's his "team" doing everything to drag him over the finish line. And that "team" is not just his direct campaign folks, but everyone on the Left that desperately wants anyone other than Trump in office.

So yeah, the Dems in congress blocking covid release bills (or putting poison pills into them) are trying to help Biden win. Every Dem governor who has put excessively restrictive closure rules in their states are operating from the same playbook. Every mayor and governor who are sitting on their hands, sidelining their own police and national guards while rioters and looters destroy stuff, are chipping in as well. And the liberal pundits and journalists and late night talk show folks are all participating, by taking all of the harm and pain that those things are causing to the people and blaming Trump for them.

That is the Dem strategy for taking the Whitehouse Joph. They are literally running on Trump mishandling the virus and being wrong on BLM protests, and being wrong on economic recovery. That's the whole strategy. They have nothing else. Seriously. Watch a liberal pundit on any network on any show. They all make the same arguments. And it's all about the things I've been talking about.

Call it "buying votes". Call it "influencing opinion". Whatever. It's all aimed at the same thing. So when your counter to this is "Well, Trump did a bunch of things that people liked, and which helped them, but that's bad because he's just doing it to win the election", it comes out kinda silly to me. So doing things that people like is bad because they might vote for Trump as a result, but doing a mountain of things people dislike and blaming it on Trump and hoping people are too stupid to notice is "good"? I don't get that. But, your denials aside, that is exactly the strategy that the Dems are taking right now.

I think it's stupid, and I think it'll cost them dearly. But you never know. And to be honest, it is kinda their best and only shot to win. So I get it. It's just that to win they have to wreak pain and destruction on the people. Which is kinda sad. I would not want to support a party that cared so much about just winning that they don't care who gets hurt along the way.

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You can't just dismiss people who don't agree with you. You should, at a bare minimum, attempt to understand both *what* their position is and *why*they hold it. Just assuming those people are stupid, ignorant, bigoted, etc is the wrong approach.

"Those people just want a free ice cream pony from Santa Claus, that's why they're asking for marriage equality/equal rights/healthcare/etc..."


I'm not sure how you get from my point about calling people names if they don't agree with you being a bad way to win people over to whatever nonsense you just wrote. The devils in the details, and the problem is that the Left is often lacking on details. They get people active over the same broad stuff you just said. "I'm for equal rights!". Great. I am too. What exactly do you want to do to make us have more equal rights? Oh wait. You want racial quotas for films? You want to penalize companies, not for having unfair hiring practices, but if the employee tallies don't match what we think they should be? Oh. You want to just calculate average wages for whole groups of people based on identity while ignoring the actual job tites and experience and demand some kind of wage adjustments if the tallies don't come out right there either?

Um... No. That's not equal rights. And that's pretty much the problem the Left has. They want to use government power to adjust the results, but not really look into what's causing those results in the first place. And when folks like me want to look at those details, we get called names, or we get ridiculously manipulated stats thrown back at us.

When outcomes are the result of actions and actions are treated equally, you have equal rights. When outcomes are adjusted after the fact to make them equal regardless of the actions taken, or the impact of those actions, you have the opposite of equal rights. But in virtually every single social or economic position the Left takes, they want to do the latter. So yeah, I disagree with them. But that doesn't allow liberals to co-op terms like "equal rights", and "healthcare" or even "environment", and insist that their agenda in those areas is the only way to be "for" those things, and anyone not on board is therefore "against" them.

That's simply not true. But yeah, the more narrow minded you guys are, and the more angrily you sling accusations and labels at anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you, the more people will just walk away. Which is exactly what we saw in 2016, and I suspect we'll see even more of it this time around.

Edited, Sep 14th 2020 2:51pm by gbaji
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#16 Sep 14 2020 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I said "Biden and team"

And apparently meant "Wait, no, not the actual campaign team but I really meant any random Democrat doing anything I don't like". Right. No, no, keep scrambling...
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I'm not sure how you get from my point about calling people names if they don't agree with you being a bad way to win people over to whatever nonsense you just wrote.

Guess you're not very good at this "Understanding their side" thing, huh. Oh, golly, I can't wait until you spew a bajillion words about how you totally understand the liberal position and then... get it totally wrong.
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But yeah, the more narrow minded you guys are, and the more angrily you sling accusations and labels at anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you, the more people will just walk away. Which is exactly what we saw in 2016

How'd 2018 work out for ya?
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#17 Sep 15 2020 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
But yeah, the more narrow minded you guys are, and the more angrily you sling accusations and labels at anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you, the more people will just walk away


We keep trying, but you still keep coming back.

Oh, well, a thing isn't worth doing, if it isn't worth doing right: You are a **** eating robot with the AI created in a sophomore high school computer class
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#18 Sep 15 2020 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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cthulhugbaji wrote:
Have you read any Lovecraft? I'm pretty sure "Old one summoned, Earth swallowed up whole. Humanity eaten as a light snack along the way. The end." is far worse than human bigotry. And that's just one of the quick and relatively painless possible endings present in his stories.
Have you?

Last Sunday's episode was the best yet. Ruby sloughing off her black skin for her white skin was throughly Lovecraftian disgust. Ruby's experience as a black woman appearing as a white woman was really well done (imo).

Bigotry was the seed that grew Lovecraft's monsters.
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#19 Sep 17 2020 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I said "Biden and team"

And apparently meant "Wait, no, not the actual campaign team but I really meant any random Democrat doing anything I don't like". Right. No, no, keep scrambling...


I'm not "scrambling". That's exactly what I meant from the start. It's not like I haven't commented on the "all hands on deck" approach the Left uses politically for a couple decades on this forum. Oh wait. I have. There's been a very ugly coordinated methodology between the political side and the media side going back at least 20 years now on the Left. I've certainly posed several times in the last several months about how the actions by Dem mayors and governors with regards to Covid lockdowns, riots, and looting, in conjunction with media skew pointing the resulting damage at Trump, which then gets repeated by the Dem politicians themselves.

Biden has a lot of people carrying his water for him. Cause he certainly can't do it himself. Don't pretend you don't see it.

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I'm not sure how you get from my point about calling people names if they don't agree with you being a bad way to win people over to whatever nonsense you just wrote.

Guess you're not very good at this "Understanding their side" thing, huh. Oh, golly, I can't wait until you spew a bajillion words about how you totally understand the liberal position and then... get it totally wrong.


Which is funny given how accurately I can predict what liberals will do in any given situation and why they do it. It's a predictable pattern Joph.

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But yeah, the more narrow minded you guys are, and the more angrily you sling accusations and labels at anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you, the more people will just walk away. Which is exactly what we saw in 2016

How'd 2018 work out for ya?


I think that the Dems are putting too much weight in the gains they got in 2018, and mistakenly believe that the results of that mid term election was some sort of referendum on Trump. They're proceeding as though it is, but a lot of the pickups they got in the house were Dems running on a platform that looked suspiciously aligned with Trump's policies, against old school "never Trumpers" in the GOP. Those house Dems then turned right around and voted lockstep with their party leadership to impeach Trump. Which will likely **** off their voters, who appear to like Trump's policies even if they don't like him personally.

The 2018 election wasn't about the people aligning with the Dems politically, but more of a cleaning house inside the GOP itself. This time around, most of those same Dems are going to be running against new GOP members who are now aligned with Trump's ideas of smaller government, more care taken in spending, better focus on what actually matters, trying to make the government less of a feeding trough and more lean and efficient, etc. That's what the voters want. That's why they like Trump.

I get why the Left tries to make it about the person and not the policies. It's all they have, since their policies suck. But that's kinda my point here. When they go so far as to equate what most people see as "normal" to bigotry and hate, more people will just start walking away. When black people are told they must choose between having no police or being called Uncle Tom's they're going to walk away. When latinos are told that they either support illegal immigration or they're somehow traitors to their heritage, they are going to walk away. When women are told that they either must be fully on board with the most extreme feminist agenda or they aren't women (or maybe there's a special place in hell for them?), they are going to walk away.

Your party is doubling down on what cost them in 2016. I think it's a huge mistake. And no, I don't think that the 2018 mid term is the sign you may think it is.
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#20 Sep 17 2020 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
cthulhugbaji wrote:
Have you read any Lovecraft? I'm pretty sure "Old one summoned, Earth swallowed up whole. Humanity eaten as a light snack along the way. The end." is far worse than human bigotry. And that's just one of the quick and relatively painless possible endings present in his stories.
Have you?


Yes. I've read most of his works. Heck. I played the old Chaosium Call of Cthulhu game a lot back in the day.

Quote:
Last Sunday's episode was the best yet. Ruby sloughing off her black skin for her white skin was throughly Lovecraftian disgust. Ruby's experience as a black woman appearing as a white woman was really well done (imo).


Yeah. It was pretty good. One of the bits they're getting right was the odd mix of science and magic that Lovecraft often used, so the breeding of the monsters in the first couple episodes works, as well as the potion to swap forms (and we're still not sure what that stone symbol was for that Ruby planted in the police chief's office). What I'm not a fan of is the overt more wizard like stuff, like creating force fields and blocking memories and then returning them with a wave of the hand. That's not the sort of magic that existed in Lovecraft's works. It was all ritual or weird science kind of stuff. It was alien monsters. It was things summoned from beyond to do horrible things. No one waved their fingers around and spoke a few words and did stuff.

I did find the whole "view the world from a white woman's perspective" interesting, but I think they went a bit too far. They made a point of saying directly that because she was white she didn't have to pay for anything. I get that they were trying to really push the whole "white privilege" thing, but it was a bit ridiculous. So a business, in a segregated town, so they can only have white customers, doesn't charge people for their products if they are white? How does that business model work?

It reminded me of a really old Eddie Murphy skit on SNL (like early 80s old), where he goes through some procedure to turn him white, and suddenly discovers all this secret free stuff that's for white people only. His skit was clearly intended to be a joke, but it looks like someone on the writing staff for Lovecraft Country didn't get the memo.

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Bigotry was the seed that grew Lovecraft's monsters.


There was very little if any human on human bigotry in Lovecraft's stories. Heck. I can only remember two stories where people were really something other than they appeared, and in both cases, it was a white person, not hiding a black person inside, but an great old race in one case, and in the other folks who were part Deep One (Innsmouth look), who would get more like an amphibian as they aged, eventually going out to the sea permanently.

Lovecraft's monsters were all alien beings. Yes. He had humans who worshiped or used these things for power, but they were as likely to be white as any other skin color. As I said in my earlier post, his "heroes" were all white, but he was writing from his perspective, and that was not out of place for the time. Which is why I like the idea of having black protagonists in the story. It's just that the story seems to be more aimed as a vehicle to preach about how bad racism was back in the 50s than to actually tell a horror story.

I'm reserving full judgement until the series ends, because it's also not uncommon in a Lovecraft story for the characters to never fully see what's really happening until the very end (which um... often is the "end" for them), so I'm hopeful. And they have laid some threads in place for that to happen. So we'll see.
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#21 Sep 17 2020 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I think that the Dems are putting too much weight in the gains they got in 2018, and mistakenly believe that the results of that mid term election was some sort of referendum on Trump. They're proceeding as though it is, but a lot of the pickups they got in the house were Dems running on a platform that looked suspiciously aligned with Trump's policies, against old school "never Trumpers" in the GOP. Those house Dems then turned right around and voted lockstep with their party leadership to impeach Trump. Which will likely **** off their voters, who appear to like Trump's policies even if they don't like him personally.

The 2018 election wasn't about the people aligning with the Dems politically, but more of a cleaning house inside the GOP itself.

Smiley: laugh

Ok.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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