"Human or not" a letter to Yoshi-P & SEFollow

I never understood this when people are trying to push solo play being "just as important" and not realize how that kind of throws everything out of whack. Solo play is perfectly fine...as long as it's not tied to progression. A game can't properly cater to solo and group play and keep rewards balanced because one option WILL BE superior to the other...Even in XI currently due to low population you can "solo" with the help of awesome NPC helpers, yet it still requires learning the content. Solo play in XIV usually means no difficulty and no mechanics to deal with because the content base is built around 4 man parties and the end-game content is built around 8 man, any deviation from that will throw everything out of whack severely in this game, not the genre, but this game. I prefer to duo with my SO when possible in games so I'm not against "solo/low man" but.....

Let's be honest, with FFXIV in particular the game has no horizontal growth. It has a terrible vertical growth even for a vertical progression system, if you try to "split" that by allowing meaningful solo play, you already ruined group play because NO ONE will touch an aspect of the game that is worthless. You may find it fun or prefer it but guess what? Participation speaks and even Yoshida himself stated the introduction of the Raid Finder got almost everyone (that don't sit around crying everything is too hard or they have "no time" but has plenty of time to do content with no mechanics) particpating in a sense and that clear numbers on ex primals and savage content is at its highest since Coil, which too was at a high clear rate overall compared to the Gordias mess up.

Here's why trying to add solo play progressively is bad:

Ilvl 300 from solo play - Content involves killing trash mobs, no mechanics, no learning curve.
Ilvl 300 from Group play - Content involves learning the boss patterns, the field mechanics, the ilvl requirements to meet DPS checks, Heal checks, not get face caved in by tank busters, getting the flow of battle down with your group you go in premade or raid finder.

The ilvl300 body from solo play has better stats than the one from group play - why would I do the group content when I can get the same and better rewards from solo play? Basic human nature leads you to path of least resistance, especially so in FFXIV.

I mean I get it, some people just hate group play, but there's numerous single player RPGs, some with MMO like mechanics you can play and funnily enough, people get told "this game is not for you" all the time whenever you bring up something you dislike, but don't seem to realize themselves if they like solo play, clearly, MMOs aren't for you. Solo play with it's own progression system similar to PoTD (so the only overlap at best is maybe a weapon/armor) would be cool to have, but if there's another Diadem situation where better stuff comes from doing less work, good luck convincing your players to do content that requires actually knowing how to play the game lol.

Not even saying this as a personal thing, since we all have our preferences but shouldn't the same logic apply? You can say "want more challenging content!" you get told "FFXIV isn't for you." "Want better itemization!" get told "FFXIV isn't for you", well if you feel MMOs should have more solo play..technically multiplayer games aren't for you either. If XIV has 6 million players like SE loves boast, should be no problem finding people you can click with

As far as successful MMOs go...

Unless your MMO is named Maplestory, you're not successful if FFXI can't be considered successful because it didn't have millions upon millions of subscribers. No MMO prior to WoW could be considered successful either then since all WoW realistically did was make the genre more mainstream, similar to how Halo brought in a new generation of FPS players due to being a very successful console FPS, a really fun one at that. Goldeneye still takes the crown, but Halo had the LAN and online Multiplayer eventually.

RE:Theonehio:

Is there some reason why solo play can't be relevant when it yields older item-level?

Let's say current Raids give i300.

Why not allow a solo play that gives i280-290?

That way, it isn't as good as what you could get from raids, but yet it is good enough that a player who doesn't have much luck or time to raid can still progress his character and be reasonably happy.

But yes, I do agree that solo can't be as good as raid, that's not good for grouping. But, that doesn't mean we have to make solo worthless, either.

Well, let's back up the chocobo a step.

Whatever you define as "success in real life" clearly takes priority over a video game, even one as awesome as FFXI. So, no, you literally can't put these on the same plane. Being successful in real life means the video games take a back seat to actual important things, which is why so many successful adults have a hard time carving out consistent time slots for video games -- or, they seek out games like FFXIV that allow for more relaxed group play -- and that's OK.

Wait, is this 2013? I feel like we've been here before.

Edited, Dec 8th 2016 3:13pm by Thayos

I think it's hilarious that I've been gone from the forum for awhile and now that I'm back, what do I find? Hio and Filth whining about people who don't want static-requiring, wall-bashing content to be the only path of progression. And I'm betting that Filth still doesn't actually play.

No matter. Bring on Blood... what's the expansion called? Ah, STORMBLOOD. Bring it on!

Try going back to what I said, I said "players who are interested in the content".

A huge chunk of the playerbase does not care about the newest raids. Not everybody is a raider or even wants to be a raider. Some people only care about transmog gear from old raids. Some people ONLY do PvP, and don't care about PvE. Some people sit in p0rnshire for 90% of their time with nothing equipped dancing on the bloody tables.

However, Blizzard's numbers cannot, and will not, ever count these people unless they actively held a poll. And even if they DID hold a poll, it would still be off, because not everybody would respond to said poll.

Blizzard's numbers are assuming everybody who has a max-level character is interested in the raids. This is simply nowhere near true, but there's no machine that can tell who wants to raid and who does not.

You cannot lump non-raiders into a % box, because that "13.3% of the population" is INCLUDING the non-raiders who should not be included in your figures.

EDIT: It is also kinda strange that you chose "Normal" Difficulty instead of looking at Raid Finder (I've seen people getting kicked for not doing "enough DPS" even though their DPS was technically enough to clear the content). Some people might wanna "just see the sights once" and only do it once on LFR and then never touch it again.

EDIT2: Furthermore, SoO was infamously difficult compared to previous raids. How about finding something easier, like, perhaps the first raid of Mists (I forget what it was called), include ALL difficulties INCLUDING Raid Finder, who cleared said raid in the first 2-3 months (gotta give people time to reach max level first).

Edited, Dec 8th 2016 8:12pm by Lyrailis

That's why I mentioned PoTD style - That way you legit have a choice in the way and it won't overlap (thus there won't be one option that obsoletes the other option) since in current style, PoTD only offers an ilvl255 which is the current "casual" weapon you can obtain that will hold you through every content current FFXIV has to offer. You also have relics if you absolutely must have ilvl260 or you like their design.

It's just keeping them on par with each other is a weird situation. If this was any other MMORPG I'd actually enjoy it, but it's really hard to trust Yoshi when he already doesn't want jobs to even be unique from each other, which alone is what makes solo/group progression such a weird aspect. If it was XI where you could supplement weaknesses with a subjob choice it would go over a lot better I think.



As much wall bashing as you do when you first do an ex primal or alliance content - but you don't and haven't touched XIV raid content and only going off on what you read, since you assume world first runners make up everyone who does raid content. More power to you, Thayos.

I'll make it easier for you to understand though:

Raid - Mechanics, Ilvl requirements (DPS/Heal checks), knowing how to play the game.
Ex Primals - Mechanics, ilvl requirements (DPS checks vary), knowing how to play the game.
Alliance content - Some mechanics (very few ways to wipe unless you completely drop the ball), can be carried by 1 group largely.

What's the difference between raid and ex primals? nothing. However since you play on an NA server, it's not surprising you still hold onto the "must have static!!!!!!!!" line of thought, when not only is that not true, but Yoshida himself said clear rates are even higher than coil days thanks to raid finder,

So no, sorry to break it to you but there's no "whining" - when you actually do the content in this game, you see VERY clearly how SE, specifically Yoshi, wants to handle things. Every content has a dance to learn, once you learn that dance you clear and farm content, don't pretend there's any "wall bashing" anywhere lol, the only time that was true was Gordias which yoshi himself said the QA team couldn't even complete start to finish.

EVERY ONE hated Gordias. You had the select few people who liked the difficulty, but everyone who raided in ARR despised it.

Edited, Dec 8th 2016 6:23pm by Theonehio

Stay your course Lyrailis. You're doing it right. Eventually you might realize that it's hypocritical of you to say "I don't want to waste my time" but roll your eyes at players who won't carry your *** through a raid because they don't want to waste their time.

XIV needs more players like this. Re-sub and don't ever look back.

Who said anything about a carry?

If I join Raid Finder, or ask to join a group to go do the content, I go with the full intention of doing my fair share of the work, as best as I can possibly do it. If I've never been there, I will need to learn the layout and the bosses, but how am I supposed to actually learn without actually going there?

I don't get where you're getting the "carry" bit, lol.

A carry is when someone joins a raid and just does nothing, stands around, or they aren't pulling their weight but are able to get through the content anyways.

Edited, Dec 9th 2016 2:19pm by Lyrailis

Uh oh, bad sports analogy!

You're an epic poster, lolgaxe, one of the few who I've ever gone out of my way to not cross swords with. But this time, you've fallen flat. Perhaps I'm motivated by the fact I'm more of a sports nut than a gamer (although, really, bowling is more of a game than a sport), and you've kind of crossed into my territory here. I really need to straighten out your sports reference though.

FFXIV is a theme park MMO, not an upside-down rollercoaster MMO. This means FFXIV is built around the concept of having different things to do for different people, not just having the exact same upside-down rollercoast spread out in various locations.

Not everyone can do the upside-down rollercoaster. Some people get vertigo. Some get motion sickness. Some don't have time to stand in the two-hour line. Some just don't like rollercoasters. You could even offer huge stuffed animals after riding the coaster, but that won't force people onto it if it's seriously not practical or doable.

So, let's convert the theme park concept to a sports concept....

If FFXIV were a sports park, you'd have bowling and baseball as separate events. Baseball would be for people who have enough friends and time to manage a team and schedule lengthy games. Bowling would be for people who might want to casually bowl with friends or even bowl alone. One might say baseball is like raiding, while bowling is like Palace of the Dead.

Anyway, you get the idea. The poster you criticized was not even remotely suggesting bringing a bowling ball to a baseball game. He was criticizing people who poo-poo on not everything being time-intensive team sports that require significantly more organization, when it makes perfect sense to also include bowling allies, basketball hoops, tennis courts and other athletic activities that can be enjoyed by one to several people with much less hassle.

Basically, you just yelled at the point guard for thinking a screen pass would work in extra time.

Edited, Dec 9th 2016 12:45pm by Thayos

I kept going. :)

And now, more!



Yeah, so I take it you're not really into sports lol. Turns out, I actually just ran (and finished) a marathon, so once again I'm the expert here. Let's take this apart:

Marathons follow defined courses. If you leave the course, you're done -- disqualified. However, while on the course, you can do whatever the hell you want. Want to hop the marathon? OK. Want to skip the marathon? OK. Want to crawl the marathon? Eh, there may be rules against that, but you get the idea. As long as you finish before the course closes, you don't have to "run" in the traditional sense. But running is certainly the best way to do it. I've only ever ran, and don't see any need for hopping or skipping, but whatever. I also see dudes running barefoot, while most prefer running shoes. Again, whatever gets you to the finish.

A casual runner probably wouldn't do a marathon though. In fact, if any of you reading this are casual runners thinking about jumping into a marathon just to prove me wrong, DON'T DO IT. Please, think twice -- marathons are serious business. You can do it, but you need to train properly.

However, you can do a 5k! Or a 10k! Even try a half marathon, if you're more of a midcore runner. See, just like MMO theme parks, within the sport of running there are various events to cater toward all needs! It's absurd to think every runner must be a marathon runner. However, many runners who dabble in the more casual events might find that they enjoy long distances enough that maybe marathons are right for them.

Also, just because I'm a damn good runner doesn't mean I'd be a good soccer player. I'm a pretty decent basketball player, but don't ask me to play football. I suck at skating, but I'm an excellent skier. There is no one-size-fits all talent that extends to all things, which is why the theme park approach is so nice (when done properly). FFXIV clearly has work to do in that regard, but that's not what I'm debating right now.


Edited, Dec 9th 2016 1:03pm by Thayos

New York on the 6th? Because the only years I've missed that in the last two decades were during deployments. I mean, if you want to whip it out and measure believing it'll be impressive go ahead. If you're going to keep going, then a nickles worth of advice would be to not prove the person you're arguing with right. There is a way to run a marathon wrong, the same as there is a way to play an MMO wrong.

Bowling ball, baseball, zoo, too many animals, marathon, wrong direction. Sorry, I sometimes forget that what's obvious to me might not be obvious to others. Trouble with bordering genius. The rollercoaster in this scenario is the Multiplayer part of the title.

Edited, Dec 9th 2016 4:08pm by lolgaxe

While I understand that I am unworthy, I'd like to point out that FFXIV has a whole bunch of parts that don't involve playing with other people. Sure you get together with people to do dungeons and raids and what have you... but then there's leveling, the story, PotD, the relic grind, and other things that you do by yourself. Claiming that raiding or dungeons are the entire game (which is basically what you did) is intellectually dishonest.