Horrifying Terrorist Attacks on the U.S.

This is not game news, but is more important. I am putting this up here because many people are trying to figure out what is going on and this way we can share what we know. Here's what I know so far: - At about 8:45 a plane crashed into one of the World Trade Center towers. 14 minutes later, andther plane crashed into the second tower. - Another plane crashed into the Pentagon soon after that. - A bomb went off at the State Department. - Both World Trade Center Towers have now completely collapsed, presumably killing everyone who was unable to evacuate in time, and also the firemen and police who were at the towers trying to help people evacuate. - Another plane has gone down somewhere in Western Pennsylvania. Possibly just a coincidence or possibly an attempt to hyjack it to another target. Words cannot express the horror.
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The problem with retaliation
# Sep 13 2001 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
Let me first start by introducing myself. Ingame, I play a monk by the name of Fankyu and a paladin by the name of Verchiel on the Tarew Marr server. I've been playing for quite some time, but as I am a casual player, my characters still have not even broken the 20th level. In real life, my name is Kenneth Pun, a Chinese Canadian in my graduating year for an Honours Bachelor degree in English literature. I'm introducting myself so that you can understand a few things about where I'm coming from. Canada has historically been greatly influenced by American culture, so I can understand the American perspective while at the same time, by living in a different country I can maintain an objective view (or so I hope). My Chinese heritage allows me to have an intriguing balance between western and eastern cultures, therefore I've learned to accept that differing cultures have their reasons for how they came to be. In essense, I'm saying that my background provides what I believe to be a way of looking at this tragedy that only a few may have considered. I'm not saying I'm right, but at the same time, I'd hope that you read what I have to say, and at the very least think about it first.

There has been a great many terms thrown around by the media and echoed by many posts here and other forums that I have read. "Terrorism" being the first, "act of war" another, "retaliation", "justice", and "revenge". There are also a great many parallels made to other historical events, such as the Pearl Harbour incident, and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I want to start out by stating clearly that there is an incredible difference between an act of terrorism and an act of war. The WTC tragedy is an act of terrorism, no one can deny that. But at the same time, it is not an act of war. It is an act that could very well instigate a war, and in many minds it should, but in itself is not an act of war.

An act of war requires that one party officially declaring war over another party. In the case of the Pearl Harbour incident, the Japanese did in fact declare war on America moments before the bombing, making it difficult for the American military to defend against an attack. This was not the case in the WTC tragedy, as no one party has declared war on America. Another part of an act of war is in how the act is carried out. Historically speaking, wars are fought by the military. The targets may not necessarily be military, but those attacking most certainly are. They use military issue weapons, and military designed vehicles. According to reports, the terrorists used only knives and threatened they had a bomb on the plane. No military grade weapons or vehicles were used in this attack.

Based on these two examples, the WTC tragedy cannot be considered an act of war in itself. I must point out however that the tragedy can be used to instigate a war, but that is for the American Congress to decide once those responsible are found, and is something I will deal with later. Having shown why I feel that the tragedy is not an act of war, I therefore believe that comparing the WTC tragedy to events such as Pearl Harbour and Hiroshima and Nagasaki as incorrect. Both the latter two incidents were in fact acts of war, one starting it (as far as the Americans are concerned) and one ending it. A better comparison would be those cut from the same cloth. Unfortunately I don't have any such comparisons available to me at this time, and will require some research.

I have just proposed that the WTC tragedy is not an act of war, and as such will continue by proposing that using war and war-like methods to retaliate would be wrong. Bombing, nuking, declaring war on, and attacking those responsible for the tragedy, while may sound gratifying would put too much at risk and most likely bring about consequences we as a world may not be prepared for. First of all, though some have written and commented to the contrary, there are indeed innocent people to consider. Yes, there were people celebrating the tragedy, but please remember these are people whose only picture of western civilization they have, is one that depicts us as capitalist, interering devils. This narrow view of us comes from a lack of communication on many parts between the two parties and more importantly on forced sense of ignorance certain dictators have put on the people.

To them, the celebration is because they believe a devil has been hurt. No different than if we were to celebrate if Saddam Hussein were to trip over some steps and break his neck. We have our own devils, and they have theirs. Granted it must feel frustrating that someone out there feels that we are devils, but rather than being angry at them for their ignorance, we should try to find ways to circumvent their view of us and change it for the better. As for those that are directly responsible for the WTC tragedy, they should be deal witht as Americans would any other terrorist faction that have been caught before. As I mentioned before, my knowledge of terrorism in history is not very detailed, and once I do the research I could probably make a better proposal of what should be done.

Once again, I do not claim to have the right answer to this tragedy, only that I have a perspective that I would like all of you to think about for a moment. If you disagree with me, I'd be more than happy to take the time to debate the topic with you, so that perhaps we can all get a better understanding of the subject. I feel for those who suffered directly and indirectly from this tragedy, and my heart goes out to all of them. I hope that this incident will come to a conclusion soon, so that we all rest easier around the world.
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 17 2001 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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301 posts
I can somewhat agree with your point but there are 2 things I have a problem with.

1) "War" in the traditional sense as "2 or more nations fighting with armies" isn't going to happen much in our life time.
2) "War" in the "against drugs" or "against terrorism" is futile for a full army to try and fight. It won't work. There is no center to send your forces against so no objectives to be achieved.

As you know English is very much a living language so words and phrases have more than 1 meaning and will change based upon desire and need of the people who use them.

As an alternative to your point I will offer the following...

It is easy to sit here angry about our having been hurt but any time you de-humanize a people (as has been done with Americans this time), you make it quite acceptable to kill them.

To many in the world we Americans are "Monsters", not people at all but "Monsters". Unlike many others in the past (such as the Japanese, Chinese, Jews, Gypsies, African peoples, etc.), we are very powerful. The same way we might cheer a 'hero' losing his life but succeeding at destroying an enemy gun emplacement during a war, many in the world see those who succeeded at hurting “The Monsters” as heroes.

Enough is enough. No more ‘us’ and ‘them’. No more ‘nameless’ numbers. I want to know who we are going to punish and why. I want to know that we are going after terrorists with an effective, surgical tool versus the bulk ‘military’ response from ancient history. I want to know that if that tool is interfered with, we will back our decision up with whatever we need to make this work. No ‘nuke THEM till THEY glow’ but a signed order from our leaders that states for reasons x, y and z we are killing Mr. Whomever and I want this to be made available for all to see -- inside the USA and outside so EVERYONE knows what is being done up front. None of that "we didn't know" crap from anyone. If we end up destroying 5 to 10 countries because they "impede" our justice then so be it but I want them to have the opportunity to impede us prior to us just bombing the hell out of them. If we lose a few groups of assassins, Then they will at least know that they have our countries backing for what they are doing and that we will react to their loss.

I believe we can and shall retaliate. How we do so is important. I do not believe that we should use bulk military power to do this but that we should make official changes to the structure of our armed forces as well as our laws, policies and practices with respect to foreign relations.

First off, we should rescind the executive order against assassinations.

We need a publicly defined branch of our military that is setup for assassinating criminals against the USA.

This branches charter will be to seek out and kill named individuals anywhere in the world that they may be hiding. The execution order will be prepared by a congressional board and require the presidents signature to be valid. No current or previous US citizen may ever be included on this list. The list of all named individuals will be released to the public and to all world leaders.

Any deaths not sanctioned by the signed order will be reviewed by an internationally appointed tribunal and whatever reparations it determines are appropriate will be paid by our government to those who received the damage (in other words, if we blow up a town to take out 3 guys, someone is going to pay for this. Who decides and how much is paid cannot be in our hands but must come from a third party – not us or the ‘offended’ group).

As an official branch of the military, members are military staff and any actions against them may be considered direct attacks against the USA and, at the government’s discretion, such acts may be considered a declaration of war by whatever power committed these actions, against the USA.

The laws defining treason in our country will be extended to any citizen offering aid or comfort to anyone on the sanctioned kill list AFTER the name has been put on the list. Treason can and will hold the death penalty.

For citizens, full legal protection under the constitution shall be guaranteed. For non-citizens, NO CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS ARE TO BE OFFERED NOR GUARANTEED IN ANY WAY. e.g. hit this list and you can scream foul but it won't help. you are going to die...

The logic here is very simple. It has been proven throughout history that an army cannot defeat guerilla or native forces. They simply dissolves and reappear elsewhere and, the more the army tries to attack them, the more damage they do to the local populace, the more recruits the force will acquire over time. The only effective means of defeating a small-dispersed force is with small hit teams.

This announces to the world that we are putting together an anti-terrorist group and that it will be backed with our full military might. Any nation that interferes with our efforts may become subject to military retaliation by our government.

Not nice. Not pretty. Effective. Send assassins out into the world with picked lists of people to murder and back said assassins with the full will and might of this United States of America.

***** with the bull, you get the horns....
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 17 2001 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
Pearl Harbor was not an "Incident". Thousands of American seamen lost their lives in that act of war. Even more lost their lives in the World Trade Center sneak attack. Notice that I did not candy-*** it up by saying "terrorism" or "Act of War". It was a sneak attack by people who thought that this country was filled with weak, spineless people. They were very, VERY frigging wrong. I plan on enlisting in the United States Marine Corps., like my father, and his father before him. I plan on, and indeed hope, to find one of these yellow, no good, sick people, and enacting a little Marine Corps. justice. How many of you will dance in the street when we roll in with guns blazing, and YOU start watching YOUR friends and family die!?!?!?!?!! I may die if I go, but I'll take a few to their so called paradise with me. Chew on that for awhile.
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 16 2001 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
I believe you to be very naive kennuth pun.

When osama bin ladden announced that they were at war your whole argument before it was created was a waste of time to read.

Missile weapondry can cause less damage than those 2 planes caused in the wtc

or how bout the plane in the pentagon

or what of the plane on the fields of PA?

when you woke up and decided to make an argument did you exspect to live normally?

what if you woke up in the WTC?

War declared or undeclared is of no concequence
Terrorism is an act of War.

Ever heard of guerrilla warfare?

you need to go back to whatever canadian school your going to and wake up man.You are naive and a very lacking politician.

War was declared
now let our enemy suffer the slings and arrows of our nation

in a phrase

CRY HAVOC! and let loose the dogs of War.
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 14 2001 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
11 posts
The whole problem with this post is that Osama Bin Ladan, as well as many other terrorists around the world, have indeed declared war on the United States. They have declared this fact many times (research that). Therefor by them slamming 3 jumbo jets into key targets of the United States is indeed an act of war. Let's face it, this is no differant than if they had done the same damage with missles.

I realize that some people do not want war. Do you think we Americans want war? I would have been perfectly happy if none of these things had come about and I was still going through my life like I was on Sept. 10, 2001.

These acts did happen though. These acts did kill thousands of people. These acts are indeed an act of war. These acts will NOT go unpunished.
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 13 2001 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
There is no problem with retaliation. There is a problem is with your argument Ken Pun. The statement that they didn't use any wepons of war is a completetly false. The terorist didn't claim the lives of 5000 people with knives! They used 1000's of gallons of plane fuel with 1000's of pounds of aircraft aluminum and the full force of the engines to obtain speeds of 500 plus mph and then crash that into unsuspecting civilians. Burning the flesh off of people, blowing them in to pieces. Collaspsing two 110 storie buildings on them. These things can only be done with wepons of mass dustruction used in WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 13 2001 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
Now that was a good post. I agree with almost every single line in it. I must point out, however, that while it is true that the WTC disaster was an act of terrorism and Pearl Harbour an act of war, examples like Hiroshima/Nagasaki or the bombings of Dresde cannot be considered normal acts of war. They were unnecessary acts of cruelty toward civilians, just like those in NY. I don't care if Dresde was bombed to pressure the **** regime or if the Bomb was the fastest way to bring WWII to an end. The fact is that thousands of human beings died and beautiful cities were blown to pieces.

Terrorism means death. War means death.
RE: The problem with retaliation
# Sep 13 2001 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
Thank you for providing a rational counter-point. But I have to disagree strongly with your statement that this was not an act of war. Terrorism is used by certain countries to influence world politics with minimal risk to the host nation. It's the equivalent to the special forces in the US, or the State Department. They provide funding, training and facilities for them to use. Then they send them off to blow things up to support their political agenda (destruction of Israel, reduces support for the UN, moving troops out of a region, etc).

Some country used these terrorists as a weapon. I don't think they realized how successful they would be, which is why *NOONE* has claimed responsibility. The US is pissed right now, and will end up going to war with the country that hosted them. Not to blow people up, but to eliminate the government that hosted these terrorists. It's about time we focused on taking out those who make these decisions instead of flailing about ineffectually with sanctions. Sorry, but Saddam doesn't care if his people starve. He cares deeply about being ground zero for a Tomahawk.

-G-
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