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#5327 Jul 20 2018 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You do realize that it's pretty normal when world leaders meet to not immediately run to the nearest camera and badmouth the other, right?
But that is Trump's MO. And since he's doing with the US' actual close allies, but not doing it with Putin...

Oh wait, my bad. He also failed to do so with NK.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2018 3:01pm by Uglysasquatch
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#5328 Jul 20 2018 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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No, he runs to Twitter first to badmouth our allies.
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#5329 Jul 20 2018 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's a case of: Failure to go to the extreme in one direction, is taken as an extreme in the other.
[...]
You do realize that it's pretty normal when world leaders meet to not immediately run to the nearest camera and badmouth the other, right? They usually say things like "we had a productive meeting" and "we're building up trust and yadda yadda".

Speaking of sticking to extremes and ignoring the actual issue, what had people aghast wasn't that Trump failed to suckerpunch Putin and spit on his head but that Trump publicly exonerated Putin for crimes everyone else on the planet knows he committed and instead make his intelligence services look like fools.

You can usually say "Great meeting, boy that was swell" without adding "Oh, and Putin says he totally didn't do nothin' and I believe him so anyone saying otherwise is an idiot."
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#5330 Jul 20 2018 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If you don't fall over yourself proclaiming "Russian meddling" as the absolute utmost most important thing in the freaking Universe, then you are part of a vast Russian conspiracy or something.
...and if you think something stinks in the White House vis-a-vis unethical/illegal dealings with the Russians, then you are part of a vast leftist conspiracy to topple Trump.


This isn't an issue of whether you think something. I'm not the thought police. The issue is declaring that what you think must be true absent any actual supporting data, and then declaring that anyone who doesn't agree with your must be stupid or complicit. That's where the departure from reality comes in.

There is zero evidence of any sort of illegal or unethical dealings between the Trump white house or campaign and the Russian government. Zip. Zero. Nada. Despite 2 years now of making the claims, looking under every rock, running multiple investigations, and more or less trying really really really hard to find anything that might possibly support that claim. At what point do we reach the conclusion that this is all entirely unfounded? Ever?

This, btw, is precisely why our legal system normally requires a certain level of evidence prior to launching investigations. We have those rules to protect people from having investigations launched against them purely to cause damage by the mere fact of having the investigation (and hitting random people on the sidelines with random unrelated stuff found along the way). But in this case, the public was so "outraged" by the speculation in the media that they demanded an investigation, and then members of Congress (Democrats primarily) said "what's the harm?", and so it was done. And so we're here. For no reason at all.


The follow up to this logic is that you can never prove a negative. You can always speculate that there might be a crime "somewhere" and if you just look hard enough and long enough, maybe you'll find it. After all, just because we haven't found anything yet, doesn't mean we might not find some if we keep looking. Again though, this impossibility to prove innocence is precisely why we require proof of guilt (or evidence of guilt for an investigation) before we proceed. The current process has turned that upside down. And regardless of who is involved, or why, it's a really bad idea and is harmful to our society and should be stopped.
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#5331 Jul 20 2018 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The issue is declaring that what you think must be true absent any actual supporting data,
Well "that just doesn't make sense."
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#5332 Jul 20 2018 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Speaking of sticking to extremes and ignoring the actual issue, what had people aghast wasn't that Trump failed to suckerpunch Putin and spit on his head but that Trump publicly exonerated Putin for crimes everyone else on the planet knows he committed and instead make his intelligence services look like fools.


He was given no choice though. I already pointed out that it's the decision to ask the question that puts him in that spot. And I've explained why folks keep wanting to go there.

Quote:
You can usually say "Great meeting, boy that was swell" without adding "Oh, and Putin says he totally didn't do nothin' and I believe him so anyone saying otherwise is an idiot."


Except he didn't say that. He said the first part. Period. Then the media hounded him with questions about Russian Meddling, to which he gave as close to a non-committal answer as possible: "He says he didn't do it". He said nothing specific about what he personally believed either. That's the liberal echo chamber's interpretation of his words. He certainly didn't say "anyone saying otherwise is an idiot". I get that you're paraphrasing rather than actually quoting, but you're stretching the truth pretty extremely here.

When you're actively involved in a summit with foreign leaders is not the time to call them liars. Yet, that's exactly what was being demanded of him in that press conference. And it's him not doing that which folks are jumping on here.

Where's the middle ground? Doesn't appear to exist in this case. Which, IMO, is the real problem. No one seems to accept the concept that we can acknowledge that of course the Russians "meddled" in the same way they've done over many election cycles, while also acknowledging that they are not the only country or interests that uses propaganda to try to influence our citizen's opinions on thing (and thus potentially how they may vote, cause... you know... first amendment and all of that), and while also acknowledging that this is not nearly the massive horrible thing that everyone is making it out to be and almost certainly had minimal impact on that actual result of the election anyway, so why are we obsessing over it?


The reality is that the Left just can't bring themselves to accept that Clinton was just a horrible candidate. So horrible that even someone as poor as Trump could beat her. They were so invested in the assumption she must win, and so confused when she didn't, that they had to latch onto some reason, any reason, to explain it that wasn't just "she sucked and maybe you should have picked someone else to lead your party". So... We get conspiracy theories of Russian Meddling to fill that up. And not just regular old run of the mill meddling, but meddling on such a vast scale that it had to have tipped the scales. Um... But that's just not what happened. The Russians did not expend any more resources or effort in 2016 than the did in previous election cycles. They almost certainly had a minimal impact, at best, on the outcome. I get that that's uncomfortable for liberals to accept, but at some point, you're going to have to. Because the fantasy world you're living in just isn't healthy.
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#5333 Jul 20 2018 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The reality is that the Left just can't bring themselves to accept that Clinton was just a horrible candidate.
You thought she was a qualified candidate.
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#5334 Jul 20 2018 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The reality is that the Left just can't bring themselves to accept that Clinton was just a horrible candidate.
You thought she was a qualified candidate.
Qualified as the one candidate that would allow Trump an actual chance at winning.
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#5335 Jul 20 2018 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
So... We get conspiracy theories of Russian Meddling to fill that up.


Smiley: dubious
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#5336 Jul 20 2018 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The reality is that the Left just can't bring themselves to accept that Clinton was just a horrible candidate.
You thought she was a qualified candidate.


I did. How does that counter the idea that she was a horrible candidate. Anyone who is 35 years old or older and a natural born citizen is a "qualified candidate". I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here.

Do you not recall me saying (long before Trump got involved) that Clinton had lost any chance to win the 2016 election when she said "why does it matter why they died", when asked about the Benghazi attack? I seem to recall saying that all the GOP had to do to win was to just put that on a loop and play it. What did Trump do to win? More or less that (plus some other stuff that came along, leading to the whole "lock her up!" bit).

I get that folks on the Left lived in a bubble where Trump was appealing to racism, bigotry, hatred, etc, since that's the stock tropes the Left always goes to. But the reality is that Trump's message was pretty much entirely about how the Left's policies have failed (Obamacare, Immigration, taxes, etc), and how Clinton was a horrible person and should be put in jail, not be running for president.

When he wanted to appear reasonable and appeal to people on policy, he talked about the first set of things. When he wanted to be the hardcore populist, he trotted out the second bit and got people more and more pissed off about Clinton. It's a pretty basic one-two punch style of politics. It should not have worked. It would not have worked in most election cycles. Except that Clinton really did (and does) set people off in such a negative way, and has a long history of doing and saying things that collectively worked to sink her as a viable candidate.

So yeah. I still say that 99% of the problem here (and why we have Trump as a president) is because the Democrats couldn't figure out just how monumentally unelectable Clinton actually was. Something I'd figured out (and stated publicly) back in like 2013 or so (don't remember exactly when that hearing happened). Maybe next time you guys on the Left should stand up to your party leaders when they're doing something really dumb? Just a thought.
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#5337 Jul 20 2018 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
stand up to your party leaders when they're doing something really dumb? Just a thought.


Like inviting Putin to the white house?
Smiley: lol
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#5338 Jul 20 2018 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
the Democrats couldn't figure out just how monumentally unelectable Clinton actually was.
You thought she was electable.
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#5339 Jul 20 2018 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There is zero evidence of any sort of illegal or unethical dealings between the Trump white house or campaign and the Russian government. Zip. Zero. Nada. Despite 2 years now of making the claims, looking under every rock, running multiple investigations, and more or less trying really really really hard to find anything that might possibly support that claim. At what point do we reach the conclusion that this is all entirely unfounded? Ever?
So, just like the Benghazi bullshit?
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#5340 Jul 20 2018 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Again though, this impossibility to prove innocence is precisely why we require proof of guilt (or evidence of guilt for an investigation) before we proceed.
I'll just go ahead and add "the law" and "how investigations work" to the long list of things you don't understand.

You're saying a cop can't investigate a suspect unless he knows that the suspect is guilty beforehand.

WRONG!!

Edited, Jul 21st 2018 12:13am by Bijou
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#5341 Jul 21 2018 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Anyone who is 35 years old or older and a natural born citizen is a "qualified candidate"
No, idiot.
gbaji wrote:
But the reality is that Trump's message was pretty much entirely about how the Left's policies have failed (Obamacare, Immigration, taxes, etc), and how Clinton was a horrible person and should be put in jail, not be running for president.
And when presented with a lying, philandering, lawsuit-riddled (lots of race-based cases, btw) arrogant douchebag, this countries Right said "that's our guy".

Well, hey; at least the Right forever cemented their "values" for all to see going foreward.

I left out "traitor" and "thief" and "rapist", because according to you, if one cannot prove absolutely that something has happened, it's impossible for it to have happened (unless the target in question is a Democrat, of course).


EDIT: I swear to Bob, I'm an excellent speller, bit I've been misspelling "thief" my whole life.Smiley: glare


Edited, Jul 21st 2018 12:17am by Bijou
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#5342 Jul 21 2018 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Here's a big problem with this..............

What the hell was this SUMMIT even about? Everything is so saturated with American politics it is difficult for average moron like myself to actually know what was going on?

In case people have forgotten there are a lot of moving pieces in the world in general... Here is the U.S. and the Russian leaders meeting for the first time....THAT in ITSELF should have been big news anway.... Kind of a big deal.. What is going on there? Iran? Syria? Escalation now happening? There are other things happening https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netanyahu-tells-Putin-Israel-will-continue-to-act-against-Iran-in-Syria-563022 All of this stuff drowned out because U.S. politics are the Cardassians of the the world.... (lol I meant Carshashians but whatever..)





Edited, Jul 21st 2018 12:30pm by Kelvyquayo
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#5343 Jul 21 2018 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Here's a big problem with this..............

What the **** was this SUMMIT even about? Everything is so saturated with American politics it is difficult for average moron like myself to actually know what was going on?

Same as the Singapore Summit; a photo op. trump gets to claim that he's done something that's never been done before.
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#5344 Jul 21 2018 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Then the media hounded him with questions about Russian Meddling

Uh, so there's indictments against twelve Russians for interfering with US elections and you think it's "hounding" the US president to ask him about this two days later after he's had a sit down with the Russian president? And the only reason it was a new story was because Trump okayed it happening before the summit. So it was an occasion entirely of Trump's own making because he thought it somehow made him "stronger" when all it really did was give him cause to call the US government liars and fools because that's somehow better than calling Putin a liar. But it's "the media's" fault for "hounding" the president into making some pathetic neophyte mistake and getting used by Putin.

God, you're a tool Smiley: laugh

Quote:
No one seems to accept the concept that we can acknowledge that of course the Russians "meddled" in the same way they've done over many election cycles

This is false according to the Intelligence Report. You're being used every time you push this lie (which has been a couple times here over the last day or two). Or maybe you, like Trump, believe Putin over the US intelligence community.

Edited, Jul 21st 2018 5:11pm by Jophiel
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#5345 Jul 21 2018 at 11:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
There is zero evidence of any sort of illegal or unethical dealings between the Trump white house or campaign and the Russian government. Zip. Zero.

And then...
New York Times wrote:
The Trump administration disclosed on Saturday a previously top-secret set of documents related to the wiretapping of Carter Page, the onetime Trump campaign adviser who was at the center of highly contentious accusations by Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee that the F.B.I. had abused its surveillance powers.
[...]
Visible portions showed that the F.B.I. in stark terms had told the intelligence court that Mr. Page “has established relationships with Russian government officials, including Russian intelligence officers”; that the bureau believed “the Russian government’s efforts are being coordinated with Page and perhaps other individuals associated with” Mr. Trump’s campaign; and that Mr. Page “has been collaborating and conspiring with the Russian government.”
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#5346 Jul 21 2018 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, can't trust the FBI, or the CIA. Or the NSA, TWA, BSA, WHO, HBO, FCC or NFL.

You can only trust trump.
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#5347 Jul 22 2018 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There is zero evidence of any sort of illegal or unethical dealings between the Trump white house or campaign and the Russian government. Zip. Zero.

And then...
New York Times wrote:
The Trump administration disclosed on Saturday a previously top-secret set of documents related to the wiretapping of Carter Page, the onetime Trump campaign adviser who was at the center of highly contentious accusations by Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee that the F.B.I. had abused its surveillance powers.
[...]
Visible portions showed that the F.B.I. in stark terms had told the intelligence court that Mr. Page “has established relationships with Russian government officials, including Russian intelligence officers”; that the bureau believed “the Russian government’s efforts are being coordinated with Page and perhaps other individuals associated with” Mr. Trump’s campaign; and that Mr. Page “has been collaborating and conspiring with the Russian government.”


It's like they wait to release the tidbits until they will have the most impact on gbaji's previous statements.
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#5348 Jul 23 2018 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Nah, can't trust the FBI, or the CIA. Or the NSA, TWA, BSA, WHO, HBO, FCC or NFL.

You can only trust dumpf.
I happen to like the "I'm right or it's fake and I'm still right" strategy. Makes it easy to disprove.
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#5349 Jul 23 2018 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
On the topic of strange coworkers...

There is one guy at work they call "Backward Reader" because he reads Japanese manga and leaves his books out on the tables in the break room. Bu that's not the weird part, just where he gets his nickname.

Instead, the weird part is, he leaves his food and personal items out on the break tables the whole shift. Spread out all over the place. Whole heads of broccoli and open bottles of ranch dressing (cap actually open and sitting on the table). Wallet, car keys, cash, credit cards, etc. Sometimes we go into the break room, and we see these items and we think he has to be fucking with people. There is no way someone would do this stuff just by accident or by ignorance.

The break rooms are open to all employees, and there are maybe 100 people overall that can go in/out of them at various times.


Revisiting this strange coworker...

Today I walk into the break room, and his items are again strewn out across a table. Including a one pound bag of pizza rolls. Torn open, and still frozen. He's stepped up his strange game.

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#5350 Jul 23 2018 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have you looked for hidden cameras? Maybe it's a social experiment.
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#5351 Jul 24 2018 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe he's trying to get into a fight to get fired?
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