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#4702 Feb 22 2018 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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How about a conversation that includes something like "maybe this whole gun-free-zone concept hasn't worked"? Might that not be a good topic to discuss?
Absolutely. So long as you guys continue to half *** the rest of your gun regulations, the above is a ******* waste of time, effort, money, lives, false sense of safety, etc...

It should be scrapped completely and then take some real action on gun regulations. Gun-free-safe-zones are nothing more than politicians being able to say they did something while actually doing nothing ******* at all. Both ******* sides of the political spectrum.
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#4703 Feb 22 2018 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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My favorite is that they have competing rhetorics between letting student carry concealed and arming teachers.
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#4704 Feb 22 2018 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is pretty hilarious because the stock Republican gun talking point is "Whaddabout Chicago?!?!!??! hurr hurr!" where gun laws were passed (by Democrats, of course) because of street homicides. Then the GOP worked tirelessly to do away with those laws and -- surprise! -- Chicago homicides have spiked since the laws preventing ownership and sales of handguns were overturned. 2017 isn't shown in the graphic and was a little lower, with "only" 650 killed and still a 50% increase over 2014 when the law banning gun sales in the city was overturned. But, sure, it's the Republicans who want to save the poor urban children.

The reason why mass shootings lead to national gun control debates is simply because people consider urban street violence to be a "not my problem" sort of thing and a bunch of kids getting murdered in the classroom shakes up the issue.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 10:44am by Jophiel
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#4705 Feb 22 2018 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Also, Parkland had an armed security guard on site so the whole "Gun free zones don't work!" bullshit is just a distraction. There was a guy literally getting paid to carry a gun in the school. Furthermore, since the shooter was a student at this school, he almost certainly was aware that the school had armed security and it did dick-all to dissuade him from murdering a bunch of people
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#4706 Feb 22 2018 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Also, Parkland had an armed security guard on site so the whole "Gun free zones don't work!" bullshit is just a distraction. There was a guy literally getting paid to carry a gun in the school. Furthermore, since the shooter was a student at this school, he almost certainly was aware that the school had armed security and it did dick-all to dissuade him from murdering a bunch of people
Imagine that, someone who plans on dying isn't deterred by someone with a gun. Just like someone who wants to murder people isn't deterred by a gun free zone. It's almost like the same logic works in both cases.
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#4707 Feb 22 2018 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Furthermore, since the shooter was a student at this school, he almost certainly was aware that the school had armed security and it did dick-all to dissuade him from murdering a bunch of people
I distinctly remember being assured that if there was a gun in a random locker, next to the rest of the students' lockers, that only one member of the faculty had access (because, you know just how impenetrable high school lockers are) to it would completely deter this sort of violence.
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#4708 Feb 22 2018 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
The reason why mass shootings lead to national gun control debates is simply because people consider urban street violence to be a "not my problem" sort of thing and a bunch of kids getting murdered in the classroom shakes up the issue.
Not to mention there really isn't any good solution we've found for it. Even before the spike in that graph the homicide rate was high. Unraveling the mess of race, culture, and socioeconomic problems that perpetuate urban street violence isn't something we're really able to do at this point. Dwelling on that fact isn't really politically advantageous for anyone.
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#4709 Feb 22 2018 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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45 has cycled into blaming video games and movies for school shootings.
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#4710 Feb 22 2018 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently video games and movies make today's youth have no respect for the sanctity of life.

Watching their fellow students get killed and being told "Well, sucks to be you; my guns are more important than your life" isn't at all to blame, of course. It's those imaginary pixels and flickering images that are doing it.
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#4711 Feb 22 2018 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
45 has cycled into blaming video games and movies for school shootings.
Suppose that's pretty par for the course with him. He's never shied away from saying controversial things. Smiley: rolleyes

Despite all the doom and gloom it's probably worth pointing out the homicide rate in this country has been falling pretty consistently since the mid 90s and while we are higher than Western Europe, we have fairly mundane rates from a global perspective. The kids are arguably safer now than at any other point in the past 60 years. Guess we brought the 50's back after all.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 12:53pm by someproteinguy
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#4712 Feb 22 2018 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
45 has cycled into blaming video games and movies for school shootings.
Suppose that's pretty par for the course with him. He's never shied away from saying stupid and false things. Smiley: rolleyes




Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 2:33pm by Professor Stupidmonkey

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#4713 Feb 22 2018 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
45 has cycled into blaming video games and movies for school shootings.

Give it a week and we'll be back to blaming Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism.
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#4714 Feb 22 2018 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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When they start blaming Mazes and Monsters, they are on the right track!
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#4715 Feb 22 2018 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fuckin' Tom Hanks, man... Smiley: mad

In 1954, Seduction of the Innocent was published, detailing how comic books were corrupting our youth and making them into amoral monsters. Today, the best selling films are based on comic books. COINCIDENCE?????

prolly

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 6:13pm by Jophiel
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#4716 Feb 22 2018 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
we should be looking at policies that address those killings.
Like making it harder to get a gun? Great idea! I'm all for gun ownership if you can pass a competency test (regular and weapon related) to legally own one.


How hard do we make this though? It has to be easy enough so as to not violate the 2nd amendment (meaning a reasonably competent person should be able to qualify for one). Someone dedicated and committed to some kind of mass spree shooting is going to likely be able to *** the test. And then what? Nothing.

And this is ignoring cases where someone simply steals weapons from someone else, right? The Sandyhook shooter just took his mom's weapons, right?

Quote:
There are a number of things in this country that are regulated for the general good (auto and truck licenses being an obvious example). There is no reason not to include guns on the list of things of "you can have/use one when you prove you can do it properly".


Yeah, because the legal equivalent of driving without a license is at all a deterrent to someone planning on committing mass murder. And the need to obtain a license has ever been an effective means of preventing road rage, or use of a vehicle as a deadly weapon.

This is the kind of idea that sounds great until you actually start thinking about it beyond a very surface level. Then it just falls apart. At the end of the day, someone who's planning something like this isn't going to be deterred by these sorts of things. They will either already have qualified for the weapons, and own them, spend the time qualifying and buying them, or just steal/borrow them. Most people doing this don't plan on living through the event.

You're going to deter millions of otherwise law abiding potential gun owners long before you deter a guy planning on a mass shooting. Which, if your objective for proposing this is to just reduce the total amount of gun ownership in the country, as part of your "I hate guns and think anyone who owns them is stupid/crazy/whatever" agenda, makes it an ideal "solution". If your objective is to actually reduce the rate of mass shootings like this? Not much at all. I have no doubt at all that a good percentage of the anti-gun folks care more about getting rid of guns from the hands of law abiding citizens than they really care about protecting kids from being killed while at school. Sad, I know, but that certainly appears to be the case.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 4:29pm by gbaji
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#4717 Feb 22 2018 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You do realize that it's the political left who push an anti-gun agenda on the backs of the relatively rare mass shooting issue, and barely mention the incredibly common urban street homicides.
Speaking of incredibly common, how many of those street homicides would have been prevented if that important according to "you" bumpstock ban was in place?


I don't know. I suspect that in the wake of the Vegas shooting putting a national spotlight on the devices, we'll see them start to appear in street crimes more often. A cheap way to modify an off the shelf semi-auto rifle into something that fires nearly as fast as a fully auto one with the downside of extremely reduced accuracy might relegate such things to a novelty among gun enthusiasts, pulled out when on an private outdoor range for fun, but would likely be extremely attractive to a host of gang members who don't really care about accuracy, but think it'll make them look bad ass.

And that's without even considering the next guy planning a mass shooting right now who we don't know about yet. Or the guy who'll start planning one next week, or next month.

We don't always have to be chasing the previous crime stats, do we?
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#4718 Feb 22 2018 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I have no doubt at all that a good percentage of the anti-gun folks care more about getting rid of guns from the hands of law abiding citizens

Oh, hey everyone! Gbaji has theories! Theories about conspiracies! Everyone, let's gather round!

What comes after we take all the guns form the law-abiding people, Gbaji? Does it involve FEMA trailers? Prison camps in Walmarts? Is Jade Helm involved?
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#4719 Feb 22 2018 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
[quote]There are a number of things in this country that are regulated for the general good (auto and truck licenses being an obvious example). There is no reason not to include guns on the list of things of "you can have/use one when you prove you can do it properly".


Yeah, because the legal equivalent of driving without a license is at all a deterrent to someone planning on committing mass murder. And the need to obtain a license has ever been an effective means of preventing road rage, or use of a vehicle as a deadly weapon. is good start as it includes a written and a practical test, and is part of a multi-pronged plan, including things such as having to register vehicles on a regular basis, display said registration at all times, have car insurance, etc
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#4720 Feb 22 2018 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Also, Parkland had an armed security guard on site so the whole "Gun free zones don't work!" bullshit is just a distraction. There was a guy literally getting paid to carry a gun in the school. Furthermore, since the shooter was a student at this school, he almost certainly was aware that the school had armed security and it did dick-all to dissuade him from murdering a bunch of people
Imagine that, someone who plans on dying isn't deterred by someone with a gun. Just like someone who wants to murder people isn't deterred by a gun free zone. It's almost like the same logic works in both cases.


The gun free zone doesn't restrict on duty uniformed LEOs from having weapons, just civilians, and especially concealed carry civilians.

That latter group is what actually deters mass shootings. The motivation of most shooters in those cases is power and control. He can see where the uniformed guard is, and go where he isn't. Knowing how much time he has until said uniformed response arrives. The greatest fear, and thus best deterrent, is that there might be a random person in the crowd, or nearby, who will show up with a firearm in hand, without the shooter knowing who it might be, or how long it might take for that person to show up and confront him.

I've said this same thing many times on this forum in the past. It's the fear of the unknown armed response that deters shooters. The known they can plan for. Yet, despite this, we keep getting responses about how armed guards don't work (yeah, they don't). Or proposals in which those who are armed on campus are identified ahead of time (for the kinds safety and peace of mind I guess). Those methods don't work. The person contemplating a mass shooting has to have no idea when he might be confronted with armed response, or by whom.

That's the way things were prior to the mid 90s when we passed the safe schools act. What a simple thing it would be to simply repeal the darn thing and see what happens. Worse case is that it does nothing. Best case is that we see spree style shooting dramatically reduce at schools. Well, best case for the students. Not so great for the gun control advocates though. They don't want to do this because if it does work, it'll disprove one of their hard held assumptions about guns and violence. And they're willing to just let school kids die rather than risk the chance the the public might just see an example were "less is more" in terms of gun control.


The Left doesn't oppose getting rid of gun free zones because they're afraid it wont work, but because they are absolutely terrified that it will.
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#4721 Feb 22 2018 at 7:00 PM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
[quote]There are a number of things in this country that are regulated for the general good (auto and truck licenses being an obvious example). There is no reason not to include guns on the list of things of "you can have/use one when you prove you can do it properly".


Yeah, because the legal equivalent of driving without a license is at all a deterrent to someone planning on committing mass murder. And the need to obtain a license has ever been an effective means of preventing road rage, or use of a vehicle as a deadly weapon. is good start as it includes a written and a practical test, and is part of a multi-pronged plan, including things such as having to register vehicles on a regular basis, display said registration at all times, have car insurance, etc


So you're already moving the goalposts to proposing yearly licensing and registration fees for firearm ownership? Took you all of one post to get there too. Slippery slope indeed!

You do get that private firearm ownership is a right. Not something we could do, if we jump through enough hoops. A freaking right. It's not like a drivers license, which is a privilege you have to prove you should obtain. It's a right. You can't compare them in this manner.
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#4722 Feb 22 2018 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have no doubt at all that a good percentage of the anti-gun folks care more about getting rid of guns from the hands of law abiding citizens

Oh, hey everyone! Gbaji has theories! Theories about conspiracies! Everyone, let's gather round!


I'm not wrong though. The primary objective of the gun control "side" is to reduce the number of privately owned firearms in the country. Period. That's their objective. It's not like they're keeping this secret.
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#4723 Feb 22 2018 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
45 has cycled into blaming video games and movies for school shootings.
Suppose that's pretty par for the course with him. He's never shied away from saying controversial things. Smiley: rolleyes

Despite all the doom and gloom it's probably worth pointing out the homicide rate in this country has been falling pretty consistently since the mid 90s and while we are higher than Western Europe, we have fairly mundane rates from a global perspective. The kids are arguably safer now than at any other point in the past 60 years. Guess we brought the 50's back after all.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 12:53pm by someproteinguy


In his defense, having started playing Bloodborne, I felt pretty violent urges towards developers.
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#4724 Feb 22 2018 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have no doubt at all that a good percentage of the anti-gun folks care more about getting rid of guns from the hands of law abiding citizens

Oh, hey everyone! Gbaji has theories! Theories about conspiracies! Everyone, let's gather round!


I'm not wrong though. The primary objective of the gun control "side" is to reduce the number of privately owned firearms in the country. Period. That's their objective. It's not like they're keeping this secret.


Yep. Give an inch.. on the radio I heard the term baby steps and next stop ban. The moment that realization hit me, I decided I am ok with mildly crazy level of gun freedom.
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#4725 Feb 22 2018 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The motivation of most shooters in those cases is power and control. He can see where the uniformed guard is, and go where he isn't. Knowing how much time he has until said uniformed response arrives. The greatest fear, and thus best deterrent, is that there might be a random person in the crowd, or nearby, who will show up with a firearm in hand, without the shooter knowing who it might be, or how long it might take for that person to show up and confront him.

Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh

"We need armed guards at the schools!!!!"
"But we have armed guards"
"No!! I meant that we need SECRET armed guards!!!"

Fuck, let's just hire ninjas.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2018 8:35pm by Jophiel
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#4726 Feb 22 2018 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have no doubt at all that a good percentage of the anti-gun folks care more about getting rid of guns from the hands of law abiding citizens

Oh, hey everyone! Gbaji has theories! Theories about conspiracies! Everyone, let's gather round!
I'm not wrong though.

That's what the Loose Change guys say, too.
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