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#1 Oct 19 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Put them in their own section, called "Restoration" or something.

Regen (+1hp/tic per level): 3, 6, 9
Refresh (+1mp/tic per level): 3, 6, 9
Category Total: 4

Category total of 4 so that you can either max out your most important one and have one in the other or so that you can make it a nice even 2/2 split. Have them activate just like normal merits so that you benefit from this while on lower level jobs too.
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#2 Oct 19 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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RDM-specific merits, or do you mean like Auto-Refresh and Auto-Regen?
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#3 Oct 19 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really see SE ever adding something that powerfull. Permanent +3 Auto-Refresh, especially at lvl 30, is massive.

A weaker form might see it ingame though:

Auto-Regen (1HP/tick; caps at 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% HP) (Max: 4)
Auto-Refresh (1MP/tick; caps at 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% MP) (Max: 4)

It's a minor effect, but still pretty nice.

I'd put them in the HP/MP group though, instead of a new group. Make it a Combo:12 so you can go 0/8/0/4 for all mages or 4/4/2/2 for middle road.
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#4 Oct 19 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's a bit strong but meh, at this stage in the game's life they might as well toss us a few bones.

#5 Oct 19 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seedling wrote:
I don't really see SE ever adding something that powerfull. Permanent +3 Auto-Refresh, especially at lvl 30, is massive.

It would only be +3 at 75. You'd be getting +1 at earlier levels, and as SMNs and PLDs can tell you, it's hardly game-changing.
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#6 Oct 19 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Would a percent based regen be too powerful? I always felt that auto-regen loses its value when you start having so much hp.

For clarification I'm talking small %'s.
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#7 Oct 19 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't really see SE ever adding something that powerfull. Permanent +3 Auto-Refresh, especially at lvl 30, is massive.


Meh, that wouldn't even make avatars perpetuation free at level 30. Sure it is strong for cure II spam or perhaps tier II nukes, but for most other things it is not going to be more than a convenience.
#8 Oct 19 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Meh, that wouldn't even make avatars perpetuation free at level 30. Sure it is strong for cure II spam or perhaps tier II nukes, but for most other things it is not going to be more than a convenience.


Yeah, 3/tic is nothing. People who think Gjallarhorn is awesome for adding 4/tic to Ballad are just deluded, that's all.

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 6:37pm by Fynlar
#9 Oct 19 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
1 MP/tick is nothing.
2 MP/tick is nothing.
3 MP/tick is nothing.

When does it stop being nothing? Because, at some point, all those "nothings" come together and form a big "something" that makes parties much more efficient.
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#10 Oct 19 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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I don't get why it's such a big taboo to make jobs in FFXI a bit stronger anyways.
So people could lowman things...big deal. What am I missing?
#11 Oct 19 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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3/tic refresh is just a little much. It makes a far bigger difference than you may think. People spend nearly 200m on gjallarhorn which gives 4 mp/tic, getting 3/4th of that (which is actually far more useful due to always being active) for all of 6-10 hours is slightly ridiculous.
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#12 Oct 19 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I kinda like this Idea but i would tweak it a little

Regen (+0.5hp/tic per level): 6, 9, 6, 9
Refresh (+0.5mp/tic per level): 6, 9, 6, 9
Category Total: 4

That way you would only get 1/tick at level 20 and 2/tick at level 40.
Also it would make it so that you can only have either 2mp or 2hp or 1hp/1mp recovery per tick.
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#13 Oct 19 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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ExpressImpress wrote:
1 MP/tick is nothing.
2 MP/tick is nothing.
3 MP/tick is nothing.

When does it stop being nothing? Because, at some point, all those "nothings" come together and form a big "something" that makes parties much more efficient.


It is as always relative. If 3 MP/tick native refresh for BLM is overpowered, then why isn't 3 MP/tick refresh spell on RDM? Is it the 40ish MP cost that it has that makes or breaks the balance?

In my opinion you won't really reach any "useful" levels of auto-refresh until you are around 5-6 per tick. For example SMN + auto-refresh trait + YY robe + a refresh source. That is when it starts to become possible to rest little if all you do is spam cures. If you attempt to also use other spells like Dia II, perhaps avatars, then you'd need even more refresh.

But it also depends on job. A RDM who has cheap spells like paralyze and slow that just takes some 20 MP or so doesn't need much more than 3 MP per tick compared to a BLM that needs 150 MP per nuke. Then again more refresh for RDM and they could nuke too without feeling like they are wasting MP.

Overall I doubt you can have TOO MUCH refresh unless you end up able to main heal a party forever without every having them near death. (Which some WHMs seem able to with RDM+BRD support, i.e. about 7 MP per tick assuming an armor with auto-refresh too)

Then again, what haste is too much haste? For balance reasons with mages it seems like 15% haste is quite enough to balance it out, and further haste just make melee better. So why do we have so "overpowering" much haste in this game, but so little refresh? Are we supposed to only have a melee friendly game?
#14ThePsychoticOne, Posted: Oct 19 2009 at 5:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Uh, what? I could solo heal a merit pt on brd with just a cor for evoker's roll. That's 1/tic from vermy, 1-3 from evoker's, 1 from sanction, and ~2 from ballad (because it's not up for around 30 secs while i play minuets every 2 mins), which is only aprox 5-7/tic. That's with no sublimation, conserve mp, convert, and only a max of ~600 mp. I could also dia every mob (excluding ones when i'm busy playing songs until it's almost dead), with little trouble. I suppose i also spend less mp since i don't need to do individual hastes, but rdm has vert which makes up for that 5 times over, and whm has sublimation, conserve mp, and light arts.
#15 Oct 19 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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As far as Haste vs. Refresh goes, put it this way:

Take a BLM using Manafont. For its duration, the BLM essentially has "infinite" Refresh. Despite this though, he is only capable of doing a limited amount of damage during that time. There would be little to no difference between someone with a theoretical 50/tic Refresh and someone with infinite Refresh, simply due to the restrictions placed on spellcasting.

Haste (more specifically, meleeing), on the other hand, doesn't face this restriction. It continues to work on top of itself and get better and better. Because there isn't any supposed ceiling where having more of it would stop adding effectiveness (other than the theoretical 100% Haste, where you would have ZERO attack delay and things would basically die the moment they were engaged), SE had to place an artificial ceiling on Haste to limit its brokenness.

As far as SE loving melees more than mages? Of course they do. Why do you think that the best overall mage weapons, most relics and mythics included, continue to be an old set of level 51 staves?
#16 Oct 19 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Nakgo wrote:
I kinda like this Idea but i would tweak it a little

Auto-Regen (+0.5hp/tic per level): 3, 6, 9, 9
Auto-Refresh (+0.5mp/tic per level): 3, 6, 9, 9
Category Total: 4

That way you would only get 1/tick at level 20 and 2/tick at level 40.
Also it would make it so that you can only have either 2mp or 2hp or 1hp/1mp recovery per tick.


I like this revision best, although I made some revisions again <.<; Maybe instead of only every 2 levels active it could be.. 1mp/2tic, 2mp/2tic, 3mp/2tic, 4mp/2tic. So that for the first level it would activate every other tick and the third it would give you one on one tic and 2 on the other.

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 8:28pm by Deadgye
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#17 Oct 19 2009 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Does anything besides like resting follow a multi-tic system? I'm not really for the idea, but I don't recall anything that does.
#18 Oct 19 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with the above discussion is that everyone seems to put all mages in the same category when deciding whether this would be overpowered or not.

Fact is: for Healing, it would be overpowered, for nuking it wouldn't.

As RDMs and WHMs constantly demonstrate in merit parties, infinite Healing is possible already. Add 3MP/tick to the possible Refresh rate of a RDM, and it's edging closer and closer to reproducing that in more challenging events. In the end, MP becomes meaningless.

On the other hand, for nuking, it's hardly game-breaking. Add 3MP/tick to a nuker, and you still have a job that has to rest frequently.
#19 Oct 19 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The problem with the above discussion is that everyone seems to put all mages in the same category when deciding whether this would be overpowered or not.

Fact is: for Healing, it would be overpowered, for nuking it wouldn't.

As RDMs and WHMs constantly demonstrate in merit parties, infinite Healing is possible already. Add 3MP/tick to the possible Refresh rate of a RDM, and it's edging closer and closer to reproducing that in more challenging events. In the end, MP becomes meaningless.

On the other hand, for nuking, it's hardly game-breaking. Add 3MP/tick to a nuker, and you still have a job that has to rest frequently.

Exactly. Healing takes a pitance of MP compared to nuking, 3 a tick refresh = 60 MP per minute. On a regular mob that equates to about a 400 damage boost per minute(estimating like 1300 dmg T4s), on HNM/Gods whatever would be even less. Thats a very small boost.

I would definitly suport this idea for nuking but for healing jobs it would be over the top IMO
#20 Oct 20 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Auto-Refresh trait (SMN 25, PLD 35, BLU 58) : 1MP/tick
Auto-Refresh gear : 1MP/tick, most are latent/hidden/enchantment
Signet(Blood of the Vampyr) : 1MP/tick if MP < 50%
Sanction : 1MP/tick if MP < 85% (depending on Imperial Defense Rank)
Sigil : 1MP/tick if MP < 35-60%

This is why I doubt SE will ever add a multi-MP Auto-Refresh merit.
1MP/tick that only works below 30/40/50/60% MP (or some other pattern) however is along the line of pretty much every other semi-permanent Refresh effect in the game. Or perhaps some weird stacking rules, so it won't stack with BRD Ballads.

SE updates are rarely of the 'KICK ***' variety... usually it's either 'Oh no, more MMM' or 'Is that all?'
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#21 Oct 20 2009 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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They should make a new bell that gives you 1/tic Refresh as long as you continue to ring it with /bell at least once every 3 seconds.

In order for it to work, everyone within audio range of the bell must have /bellsw turned on.
#22 Oct 20 2009 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Probably better to ask to merit hHP and hMP than Refresh/Regen.
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#23 Oct 21 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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I would be happy with a hMP and hHP merit.
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#24 Oct 21 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would be happy with a hMP and hHP merit.


Edited for brevity because we all know what people are going to choose, and because SE has shown no sign of removing their merit category caps
#25 Oct 21 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
As far as SE loving melees more than mages? Of course they do. Why do you think that the best overall mage weapons, most relics and mythics included, continue to be an old set of level 51 staves?

I would argue that as a sign that SE favors mages over melees, rather than the reverse. Because HQ elemental staves are better than anything else, you can hit a higher level of performance earlier, rather than having to wait until level 70+.

Now, if those HQ staves at level 51 sucked, and were still the best overall mage weapons, I could see that as support for your argument that SE favors melees over mages.

I'm not saying that SE doesn't favor melees over mages. But I think elementals staves does not support that viewpoint.
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#26 Oct 21 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I would argue that as a sign that SE favors mages over melees, rather than the reverse. Because HQ elemental staves are better than anything else, you can hit a higher level of performance earlier, rather than having to wait until level 70+.


If that is the case, why do melees that don't get fancy new useful gear (typically occurring when such gear is actually made, but leaves out a certain job(s)) always complain that their job is being neglected?

It's great that they're useful and all, but people are tired of the 5~ year stagnation. It's particularly embarrassing when things like relics and mythics can't even outclass them.
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