why blm/smn sucksFollow

Here here! After 50, BLM/WHM is a -must-. As much as BLM/SMN has it's perks, it does not belong in an exp party.

Personally i dont think you should knock down anyone for the way they want to play their mages. If they like their SMN sub and think its more useful than WHM sub and have tried both let em believe what they want. Same goes for anyone with a WHM sub who thinks its better than a SMN sub who has tried both. People are different as such you will always... ALWAYS get different opinions and that is why this game is so great there is not always one set way to do anything. I've been in a party with 6 taru's 4BLM's 2 blm/whm 2 blm/rdm 1 WHM/BLM and 1 PLD/WAR, all tarus... most people would say that is stupid cause tarus cant be good tanks and blah blah others would say otherwise but all i know is we were making 8k/hr in qufim at lvl 22. IT WILL WORK IF THE WORK IS PUT INTO IT. Deal with it people arent always going to think your way is the right way just cause your a high lvl.

Come on guys, let's drop this already. It is not hard to see that the pro /whm are mostly Taru and the pro /smn are mostly non taru. IMO, no matter what you say, it's very hard to make taru player see the usefulness of a /smn sub, because they mostly never have to worry about mp and Int. Don't get me wrong, if you play a taru, I would definitely go against /smn sub. Taru has enough Int and MP already, that subbing /smn will be a waste, not to mention you don't get any defense and curing ablity. However, for those Taru BLM player, switch to a non taru char and play a BLM, then you may start to see the light of subbing a SMN. I don't know about higher lvl, but at lvl51/25 SMN, I get 50 more or so MP when subbing SMN, and more INT. THe normal fight is around 2 minutes for me(the Thf was able to use 2 SA in a fight), and with auto refresh on, it is another 40 more MP(These MP from SMN sub will often take care all the debuff a BLM has to do). It may not sound a lot to a taru, but it is A LOT for a HUME, plus my spell won't get resisted as often. Now, granted I can't cure, but how many CURE II or III you think a HUME can pump while we have to NUKE too(now think about an Elvaan and Galka^^)? Yes, /whm makes you much more useful, no doubt. However, in the same time, it will make you that much less effective as a BLM if you have to pump MP into curing(Also starts the should BLM be curing argument). More Curing = less nuke = longer fight = more down times. Now on to defense, HUME get more HP and defensive then taru, so in case we get aggro, we "usually" can take a hit or 2 and survive. If you happen to be an Elvaan or Galka, then.. well, you know what I mean.

The bottom line is, as a taru, you will never get as much benefit being /smn than /whm, period. However, if you are any other race, /smn can bring the best part of BLM(damage) out of your char than /whm, period, while /whm still gets you more group, because....well, YOU CAN CURE. ^^

HP doesn't mean much since your defence is practically the same as any other race. Its a matter of you can survive one more hit or not. I always think Blm subbing a summoner are those who REFUSE to cure. As strict as it seems this is really the case. Whm sometimes cannot chain cast heals if the tank is receiving a beat up. Simple when you get hit, you lose agro. Tanks loses agro all the time, while whm and blm builds up agro. Sometimes it reaches a point when the blm or whm hate exceeds the pld or what ever tank you got and goes to casters.

Taru blm or even hume blm when they get hit, it goes from full hp to yellow... goes to orange if its a critical hit. There are times as Vorpal blade stated when melees are not doing enough damage, mob's hp is 20% and chain time is running low. This is when blm and any other nukers (rdm only really...) uses their mp to finish them off. Its not a rare sight post 60s when melees simply cannot hit that last 5~20% hp.

When your Exp needed to lvl goes 30k+... really you never want to cut your chains when you have the firepower to do so.

Despite the title of this thread, it has been very informative. My friend is trying to decide what class to sub with BLM, and i've been able to get some very objective views out of the things posted here.

Thanks to Tarutatu and Taaniel for all of their good information!

Blondebeard the Pirate
30 thf / 15 war / 3 nin
Fairy Server

/wave

I often get tired of reading so many posts declaring to all the many fallacies of certain job combinations. It seems that no one plays a game to have fun anymore; the primary goal of a majority of players is becoming more 'uber' than the next person. I will say with my last breath that not job is better or worse than another--it's all in how it's played and what the player is getting out of it.

nlongfx:

It is neither an efficient use of my time, nor an appealing idea, for me (or, I suspect, hundreds of other Black Mages) to level up three separate subjobs for maximum versatility. I barely have enough time to work on one, thank you.

Many people playing this game do not have the time nor the inclination to spend leveling so many subjobs to a level where they are useful as a subjob -- especially as their main job reaches successively higher levels. Thus, the answer to this thread is not to simply say, "level them all", but to choose which one subjob solely provides the maximum benefit for a Black Mage.

At level 59, according to a popular stat calculator, there is a total difference of 40 MP and 3 INT between a Tarutaru BLM/WHM and a Tarutaru BLM/SMN. Odd that even at such an advanced level, the total stat gains from using Summoner as a subjob can be negated with a single pumpkin pie. True -- the summoner can use a pie, too, and they get Auto-Refresh and Blinkga. But at level 59, anyone who's put enough time into the game to level three subjobs could easily have saved up the gil for a Vermillion Cloak -- hell, I've nearly got the requisite cash, but since I play with a BRD regularly and don't have MP difficulties, I doubt I'll bother with the purchase. And that leaves a BLM/SMN with precisely one usable skill (Aerial Armor) that a BLM/WHM doesn't have.

Furthermore, most people leveling BLM as their main job are unlikely to have any other summons but Carbuncle in the first place until they hit level 65. And if that's the case, why should they spend all but ten levels with a mostly-worthless subjob?

By contrast, a WHM subjob brings to it reams of versatility benefits. At level 59, I can raise fallen teammates, cure almost as effectively as a WHM, remove most common character debuffs, and enhance the party's elemental defense. Not to mention that when I do get hit -- which is inevitable, not unlikely, no matter how good one's tank is -- a single Drain, coupled with automatic HP regeneration, means that the WHM doesn't need to bother curing me.

Using White Mage as a subjob also brings with it an increase in my enfeebling and enhancement skills, while Summoner increases neither. It gives me extra HP, VIT, MND, and defense -- all things that a Tarutaru can use more of.

As a BLM, I deal damage excellently: already, I fulfill my party's expectations of a consummate nuker. I can best serve my parties not by the occasional Blinkga cast and a few extra points of nuke damage, but by helping to cure the party and keeping their damage-dealing consistent.

Finally, I'm bloody sick of the argument that BLMs shouldn't be responsible for curing. It's a snobbish, elitist argument to a problem with a common-sense solution. We HAVE a curative spell: it's marked Drain. Furthermore, consider my 'normal' party:

Paladin :: White Mage :: Bard :: Thief :: Samurai :: Black Mage

Who's best to have a WHM sub?

-- The Paladin already has curative magic, but subbing WAR gives him better enmity management tools for his purpose in the party.
-- The White Mage obviously can't sub WHM.
-- The Bard doesn't have MP in the first place, and +CHR items aren't going to positively affect healing spells. (The Bard has to be mobile anyway, to keep the proper songs on the right people: this makes casting spells a bit difficult.)
-- Thief? Samurai? Don't make me laugh.

As someone whose main job already requires MP, BLM subbing WHM just makes sense.

With the new update you can unlock all the avatars at lvl 20, so theres no excuse why you wouldn't have them.

You need to keep up to date with the patches. A new way was added to get all the Avatars except for Fenrir. That way requires you to be a Summoner. You fight a weaker version of an avatar solo and you are level capped at 20. If you win you get a scroll so you can summon said Avatar. Hence with a little cash for ethers and juices, every Summoner 20+ should have all Avatars save Fenrir.

-Drachasor

Being someone who has levelled both white and red mage for subbing, I suppose I should give a word on this. Mileage may vary.

As a tarutaru blm/whm at 50, I can cast nukes non-stop until the end of a battle. As a blm/rdm at 50, I can also cast nukes non-stop until the end of battle, I just get a few more in and hit a little harder thanks to Fast Cast and higher int.

For a tarutaru such as myself, why sub summoner when I can already never have to stop casting spells? I don't need auto-refresh, I already reach full mana before the whm. In the case that we don't have a bard or red mage, I don't need to nuke more, I'm already drawing aggro off the paladin, let alone the ninja or warrior.

But that's as a tarutaru. Other races could benefit much more from a summoner sub. Does this not make sense?

On the subject of rdm versus whm...

I prefer red mage sub, only using white mage when the PT really needs it. i.e. a PT of blm, smn, rng, rdm, brd, drk may reach xp-chain#8, but I WILL need to cast CureIII. BUT, in most parties by the 40s I pretty much never had to do backup healing, making Silena the only spell I've ever missed when subbing rdm. At 50, Raise is nice, but neglible once white mages have Raise2.

So the voice of having-subbed-both-experience says, rdm and whm are equally effective in the long run for those who only want to work on one sub.

(For those curious, as of this post I am 51 blm, 27 whm, 28 rdm)

OMG there is so much enmity going on in this subject. Whoever tells me that I should NEVER play a Blm/smn in an XP party is crazy.

It all depends on the party makeup and situation. Now I usually prefer a blm/whm and have actually never played a blm/smn. But I have been in many parties where the only whm spell I have ever cast was Sneak and sometimes not even that. I have been in parties with a whm and a rdm and a great tank where extra healing was not needed at all. I can see a summnoner sub being useful in those parties. And to say +3 Intelligence isnt much is just ridiculous. You can give examples of one apple pie or whatever, but that is only temporary. Why don't you compare it to 3 Morion Earrings?

Now that being said I will sub Whm 99% of the time, but please don't make everything so black and white.