You Really Know Why Dragoon Sucks?Follow

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Simply put, some people know how to play the game and some don't.

A well geared MNK/WAR that knows his job will out DD a well geared DRG that knows his job equally well. Simple as that. For that matter, a well geared MNK/WAR that knows his job well will probably out DD or tie Ridill WARs.

Some people just don't know how to play the job well, how to optimize equips, etc. Eating Sushi w/ a BRD in party doing Minuet/Magidral is already a failure on the part of the MNK, especially given 7 H2H merits already. I guarantee if you stuck a Black Belt MNK with all of the gear and intelligence to push out maximum damage into your party (and was only interested in doing damage), the Colibri wouldn't have even blinked at the NIN for more than 10 seconds after voke. Especially given your NIN's damage on the parse although granted, Colibri are such a PITA to tank on NIN (although you did have a BRD and that makes things a LOT easier).

I could post a parse of an LS DRG that has almost identical gear to you but more merits and compare it against my DRG. And its not very pretty for him, I'm well over 50% more damage when compared to him, granted I both out-gear him and out-merit him when comparing my DRG vs his DRG. Take that same difference between me and him and pit me against one of the server's strongest MNK/WAR's and you'll see just about as big of a difference. Its quite sad given just how close my DRG is to the maximum potential DRG's can probably reach (assuming non-relic and non-Ares gear) =/.

I'm not sure you'll ever get into a party to compare against a powerful MNK but if you ever do, its pretty disgusting just how much damage MNK's can push out in merit, especially if they actually do sub WAR and eat meat.

Few things.

1) You're getting a damage bonus

2) He's eating Sushi with 7 H2H merits

3) You're still only outparsing him by 1% which is well below any kind of margin for error for things like AFKs, not engaging fast enough, etc.

Obviously I'm not saying drg sucks, but this parse has holes in it all over the place.

Wow, you can sorta outparse a sushi eating mnk on mobs you get a bonus to, this is proof? If you want to convince the rest of alla, you'll need better proof than this. Also, where's your wyvern? That data would have gone farther in showing drgs comparison to a mnk, and never try to do a job vs. job comparison on mobs one of the jobs gets a bonus to.

I'm not saying your argument is invalid, but this is one of the worst parses to try to use as a defense. The fact you were fighting flying enemies automatically invalidates this.

My thoughts on the macro and 'simplicity' thing for jobs...

MNK-some JA's that can be used once/5m and if /nin utsu for timers.
WAR-also, some once/5m JA.
DRK-a more 'complex' job with stuns and absorbs as well as those once/5m JA.
SAM-alternating between Seigan/Hasso and Third Eyes on top of the once/5m JA...it got more 'complex' in last update.
THF-a job that in my opinion is the most 'complex' of the melee DDs, the only efficient way to pull off good dmg is swappin in gear for every SA and TA(in most meripo, i really so no reason to keep SA+TA), and doing this every min or less if merited.
DRG-not quite as in depth as thf, but still got 2 jumps on a 3m timer, one most likely merited down to 2.5m if drg has gotten around to it, and one thats 90s(85s merited)... on top of the once/5m merits.

I don't think it would be proper to say some jobs are 'tougher' than others or require more skill(not going into tanks/mages), but as I'm trying to point out, WAR and MNK are very straight forward jobs, I know MNK is first hand, and one of the things I hate most about it is the simplicity, its so monotous and boring. I have great respect for the THF's who give it their all(such a small amount its annoying), DRG is probably the second busiest job in a party, maybe next to a DRK who uses there magic as often as they can(also unfortunately rare). I tried to make that as unbiased as possible, and again, just because a job is easier or takes less effort to do well doesn't mean one job is better than another.

Now to the point of MNK and DRG damage... its not fact that all must know or accept, but its often believed(for good reason), that if you have DRK/WAR, WAR/NIN, SAM/WAR, DRG/WAR, NIN/WAR, and MNK/WAR all in 'perfect' gear, excluding merits, with maxed merits(no, its not fair in amounts of +atk/acc/str/haste, but thats one of the main differences between jobs) and you are fighting enemies with no specific damage gain due to type of damage, the MNK/WAR will win out. I'm not saying that because I am a MNK, and I don't think my MNK is even close to that good, I am saying that because it's been shown to be true often, and is accepted as fact by most NON-MNK players I know. As someone else said, aside from ridill-WAR it really isn't even that close. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but even some of the more famous players server-wide, even with relic, have trouble competing with MNK/WAR.

That doesn't mean all other jobs are crap in comparison, its just something kind of unfair with the jobs currently. That fact is pretty much nullified by the fact that most MNK need to sub NIN though in near every situation... kills damage a bit and increases survivability. Anyways, that's every point I can think of, I'll still be lurking around here to reply moar! >^.^<

Any MNK in a haste build+haste or victory march+haste... or both... should not use boost while TP'ing in my opinion. I know its often debated, but when your overall delay is between two and three seconds, spending on extra second or so every 15 seconds for a small gain in attack for one hit just really doesn't make much sense. When I'm in party situations or limbus/dynamis and have victory march and haste on, I don't even boost before using Asuran anymore, the damage difference is minimal to non-existant but the delay from boosting every IS noticable. Now, I know that is my opinion and debated a lot I'm sure, but boosts uses end game to me seem limited to Chi Blast only, which is pretty much dead... but that is its own discussion.^^

noodles, a monk that eats sushi, wears fumas, wears str rings = a sh*tty monk. no way around it. no crit merits, no kick boots, no giant ATT boost from meat because sh*tty, improper gear = just another gimp mnk. i'm certain my mnk as mnk/nin would outparse the aforementioned mnk/war.

(edit: by the way, that boast has been proved true against a few monks in the past, which is pretty sad)

Edited, May 2nd 2007 3:15am by milich

Noodles you should have seen the crazy party I had yesterday.

This ridiculous NIN actually outparsed me by about 0.4% (not counting my wyvern) at the Mamool Ja Staging Point. From what I hear, an extreme geared NIN can nearly keep up with a Ridill WAR, and now I believe it. This is while I was subbing WAR too!

I didn't realize how night and day the damage difference between /SAM and /WAR was. I started the pt with /SAM, went for about an hour and a half, then switched to /WAR and went another hour and a half. The MNK/NIN that was in the party the whole time started out pulling hate away from me on a regular basis after about 15 seconds in most fights. He was parsing just above me as well. Then we took a break, I switched subs and reloaded my Angons, and my party damage went up by 4%! If it was 24% before, and then it went to 28%, then my personal damage increased by 16.7% by switching subjobs WITHIN THE SAME PARTY.

This is fairly off topic, but a nice reinforcement to the argument that /WAR destroys /SAM. I mean, I knew it was a stronger sub, but not that much stronger.

berserk > all. it upsets a lot of people for some reason, but ATT is that important;;.

edit: same reason why 8%haste meat monk can outparse 25%haste sushi monk;;

Edited, May 2nd 2007 8:44am by milich

The real power in the mnk job is the none AH stuff open to them. Im almost willing to say AHdrg>AHmnk. But then grab a mnk with BB and dyna gear and byakkos and shura and your left in a hole... No way to compeat.

Given his Accuracy rate of 93.91% that your parser reported, he would have achieved an 8/8 Asuran Fists 60.5% of the time. This of course is if no gear swaps are used on Asuran Fists, such as a Soil Gorget.
This also brings up a very important question regarding your parser. I can't use Parsers myself on PS2, so I have to ask my friends if they can. However, I know that many of the older parsing programs out there did not count damage from Counters. If your parser is not including this data, that is detrimental to the parsers accuracy as that is a large factor that must be included.
Your friend should really try our MNK/WAR in Caederva Mire parties. The Imps hit like limp noodles, have no devestating WS, and can easily be countertanked with the correct gear and counterstance up. You may be surprised by the MNK/WAR outdamaging you, even with a piercing bonus. Again as mentioned above, be sure your parse includes counters.

Edit: Just so you know, you can not counter while Shadows are up. Counterstance is great because it can prevent you from being interrupted while recasting, but if counter fired off before shadows, MNK/NIN would be stupidly broken.

Edited, May 2nd 2007 11:12am by Cyth

lol tanget about mnks vs drgs.

Since i did 90% of my meriting with a mnk, Ill share my experience.

#1 mnk/war is crazy stupid against anything toa but trolls.
Noodels take the damage taken, out of total that will give you a good idea of the reality.

#2 mnk is all about consistancy.
Anyone who has played drg knows that consistancy is a joke.

Consistantly an mnk should out dot anything.
Im sure there were days where I owned lamier in Mamool Ja SP...
And im sure there were days where he owned me in Mt Z...

All I know is we would have both been dead quite a few times without our drk friends stun's.
In the end its all about results can you put your epeen down and make the pt better?

Bolded for clarity. I was just stating that a MNK/NIN has much higher survibility than a MNK/WAR does. So, the MNK/NIN can put out more dmg and have much less of chance of taking a dirt nap.

No it isn't a pointles argument. To claim you can keep up with a ****** mnk/war on flying mobs isn't proof that DRG is just as good a DD as MNK. The fact that a ****** mnk/war can only get outparsed by 1% by a drg on mobs the drg gets a 25% bonus to is a pretty revealing thing. Claiming "DRG is a decent DD in a merit party" is superfluous...every DD is pretty much a "decent" DD, I just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument that you and mnk are closer than you realy are.

I don't think anybody says drgs aren't really good DDs to have in a flying mob party like Nyzul Isle, but to say a drg comes close to a mnk is false. I mean you only outparsed him by 1% and he had ****** gear and used sushi.