Thief always gets the shaftFollow

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, based on the parser log. Did you happen to glance at his actual ranged damage in the fights where he recorded 100% ranged accuracy? It sure doesn't sound like it.


That's funny, because I can fire many, many more times than that and not miss once at all. Is your argument that it is physically not possible to land nineteen consecutive ranged attacks? That's a pretty stupid argument.


A claim that's backed by nothing. Please, feel free to explain how his parser captured his melee misses, yet failed to capture his ranged misses.

Someone presents logs that disagree with your world view, and your response is, "the parser must be broken!" Talk about sticking your head in the sand. If you won't even accept parsed logs as reliable evidence, why do you even bother posting on these forums? You're just proving that you are completely impervious to logic.

Edited, Thu Feb 17 04:34:14 2005 by redvenomweb

Actually, there is. If you see the example cited in the post I linked to, you can see one way to directly determine accuracy bonuses. Two characters, with the same stats and different subjobs (e.g. RDM/DRK and RDM/RNG). Find a mob that checks as high evasion, then add +ACC to the RDM/DRK until it checks as "normal" evasion (by exactly one ACC point). Now tweak the RDM/RNG until the same thing occurs. The difference between their accuracy is the bonus given by the Accuracy Up trait.


It wouldn't be the first time it's happened. The 74NIN/RNG whose logs I cited (which you have had no comment on) went through the exact same thing, as did I when I played NIN/RNG. The rote reply of "If it was good, someone would have already been doing it" doesn't carry much weight with me; the "recent" discovery of NIN/BLM is, by itself, enough to blow that type of talk away.

You still have yet to explain exactly why a THF/RNG, with an ACC+22 trait, would have problems building TP. Or is it your claim that it simply is not possible to build acceptable TP while single wielding?

BTW, I have a question for you: as a 70THF/NIN, exactly what food do you eat? Do you eat +ACC food and have "gimped damage," or eat +ATK food and have "gimped accuracy"? Because you've used both of those arguments in this thread already.

Show me one single post of a person agreeing that NIN/BLM is an effective combo prior to October 04. You can't. They don't exist. (Oh, and if I were to describe ~900 damage every 45 seconds, "decent" probably wouldn't be the word I would use.)

Every single post on the topic will talk about "half-level black magic" and "gimped mana pool." I would have been one of the first people there shouting that same garbage.

People are simply lazy and refuse to even try to think of new subjob combos. They take the same stance you do, chanting that if it was good, someone would have already done it. Even in this case, you claim that you tried THF/RNG back when "THF got status bolts." That doesn't sound like you tried it with sushi to me.

Oh, and if I were to describe ~900 damage every 45 seconds, "decent" probably wouldn't be the word I would use.


Wow. This illuminates exactly why you don't consider THF/RNG (or pre-sushi THF/WAR) to be viable. In your view, if you can't match /NIN in TP gain, you are gimped, period. /WAR's Berserk and /RNG's Acid Bolts simply aren't relevant; if you build less TP then /NIN, then you suck.

How ironic is it that you presumed to bash me for "focusing too heavily on WSes," when your sole qualification on if a subjob is useful is whether or not they build as much TP as /NIN.

It is no secret that I am a big proponent of /NIN and max TP gain. But I have always maintained that /WAR is good enough to get the job done, even pre-sushi. /WAR and /NIN are two different ways to accomplish a goal.


So what exactly is your objection to a BRD singing Madrigal+Minuet to a party, while THF/RNG hits it with Acid Bolts? Since BRDs are now allowed to be assumed in party, that certainly doesn't hurt THF/RNG.

There are only a very very few thf/rng out there
and I think I should say something about it, as I
played thf/rng till 57.

First of all, 90% of the comments on /rng is not
by a /rng. So it's a strict fact that most of
posters do not have first hand experience with /rng.

I don't want to get myself too deep into this argument,
but I want to clear up some mis-information.

If you say any of the following regarding /rng, you are
misinformed. Some of which regards how thf/rng is played,
in those case you are simply incorrect by definition,
because that's not how thf/rng is played.

1. Accuracy bonus applies to RA or Melee only.
Simply incorrect. To get proof, ask in RNG forum, you
will be presented with countless proof that the bonus
is indeed +22 to both RA and Melee.

2. /RNG must shoot all day to gain TP.
This is false. TP wise you are at least on par with /war.
It's natural to think /RNG must shoot, but any /RNG will
tell you otherwise. We usually get TP first with dagger, then start to debuf (acid bolts). Remember you are hitting with
+22 accuracy @ 60.

3. +22 accuracy is not a significant advatnage.
If you believe in this, I have nothing to say...
At 60, +22 accuracy is about what you get with sushi.
+22 accuracy is 2 sniper rings + peacock charm.

4. /RNG don't land bolts.
True, but only if the /RNG is gimpped without Racc macro.
At 57 with sushi and sharshot, I land at minimum 85% of the time.
With sushi and sharpshot, I have land bolts BETTER than my dagger in some extreme circumstances.
BUT, it's no where near what a RNG can do. That much we
won't deny, and we never claimed we are as accurate as RNG.
Most people immedaitely compare THG/RNG to RNG, that's not
the a good way of looking at it. Remember this, you land
that 1 acid bolt, you do the party a great favor. Lowering
mob defense is equivalent to to adding attack to all DD.
Most people never realized how much acid bolts help,
because they are pretty much never used in regular party.

5. RNG do less damage on SATAWS.
True, less damage than /WAR with berserk, but on par
with /NIN. A /RNG will macro in SATA gear just
like any other thf.

6. /RNG are stubborn people who gimp their party.
Have some trust in your fellow thfs. Thfs always aim for
the benefit of the party. I believe if any THF/RNG feel
they are gimping the party, they will stop playing or
switch to other sub.

Truth that you can bring home and spread out:

THF/RNG needs to do much more than THF/WAR and THF/NIN
to be as effective. It's not a standard or pickup combo.

900 damage, if they get that much, is decent. How would that be anything more then decent when in 45 seconds even a thief can rack up 1500 damage. A drk can get 1500 damage in one hit. Also I cannot search these forums, but I guarantee the topic of nin/blm was brought up multiple times, I remember reading about it when I first started the game christmas 2003.

Also as I said, they are good "in the right situation". Nin/war is absolutely the one and only combo a ninja should be using in an exp party, because they play as tanks. Job combos aren't chosen at random by a bunch of people trying to stop people from being unique, they're chosen because they are the most logical choices. Of course there are circumstances where a unique job combination can work, but the "main" job combination you see in the game now will work better 99% of the time. Anyways going through the elemental wheel will take a lot of time away from the ninja allowing rather poor melee attack%, it really is getting a gimpy black mage. Go over to the ninja boards and ask them what they think of nin/blm in a party, oh wait, "they never really tried it", right? In other words, it didn't work for them because only you and a few other uber elite people know how to really use the job combination, come on...

You miss-read. I said you have to hit just about EVERY swing to get as much TP as you would with thf/nin. In other words, there is no way you're going to get as much TP as a thf/nin as there is no way you're going to have 100% melee accuracy, even with sushi. The problem then is NOT keeping up with a pre-concieved amount of TP you would get as thf/nin, but keeping up with OTHER DD'S IN THE PARTY. Thf/war can ONLY do this with sushi at later levels. When you lag in TP gain you slow the party down considerably. Seriously, when did you start playing this game? If you went back into the past, say exactly 1 year ago, you would see more then 99% of thieves using /nin past lvl60. Now I'd say the percent, at least on my server is about 75%nin and 25%war. As I said, the only reason pre-sushi to use thf/war post level 60 was because you didn't have ninja leveled.

There is no problem with it, it's just not the best combo. A thf/rng with a brd would be equivalent to a thf/war without a brd. A thf/nin with a brd and the right food is better then both thf/war and thf/rng. The only situation in which a thf/rng would work better then a thf/nin or thf/war would be a fight in which monsters had to be kited around. However in those situations you're nothing but a severely gimped ranger. I'm still waiting for you to find one thf/rng post level 70 who agrees that it's just as good as /war or /nin.

WTF?!? Are you seriously unable to distinguish between 900 damage every 45 seconds, and 1500 burst damage that takes over a minute to set up? Using this bizarre logic, DRKs are by far the best DDs in the game, since they can do 1500 damage in 5 seconds. Start timer, SATASpinslash, stop timer. Of course, 1500 damage in 5 seconds is totally different than 1500 damage every 5 seconds, but apparently, you don't recognize that distinction.


And like I said, every time it was brought up pre 10/04, the responses were unilaterally composed of statements about gimped mana pools and half-level black magic. Not once did someone mention that you could outdamage a BLM in DOT, while never having to hold back.


So you mean instead of landing two katanas for 40 damage each (if your hits connect), you're stuck with casting a spell for 150+ damage? Wow, sounds like a crappy deal.


They have tried it. They've exp chained on VTs while soloing. They know how powerful it is. Perhaps you should go ask them.


Which DDs are you talking about? Assuming equal quality equipment, who is dusting you in TP outside of SAM and RNG?


How many times are you going to say, "Everyone is using combo [x], so that proves my point?" Do you seriously believe that players always choose the most effective jobs? The fact that people play as non-RNG DDs pretty much disproves that.

Most popular != most effective. Most of the time, the people who reach for the popularity argument as justification don't fully understand why the job became popular in the first place. If everyone followed the same mindset, /NINs would have never replaced /WARs, for any job.


...except that /RNG would have better accuracy, and be able to land Acid Bolts, which you earlier described as "amazing"...


...except that /RNG would have better accuracy, and be able to land Acid Bolts, which you earlier described as "amazing."

On the one hand, you say that post-60, mobs have insane evasion and defense, but then you turn around and claim that the two job combos (/WAR, /RNG) that get +ATK and +ACC abilities/traits from their subjobs are inferior to the one that doesn't (/NIN). You lecture about how having A+ Marksmanship would be a revolutionary change because Acid Bolts are Just That Good, but then dismiss the one subjob that can land Acid Bolts (/RNG) out of hand.

Some consistency, please?

Edited, Fri Feb 18 04:21:38 2005 by redvenomweb

Yes, really. I know you desperately want to discount the log I already provided, but here's something you can't discount: NIN/RNG, with a worse Marksmanship rating than us, landed 63 SLUG SHOTS (you know, that extremely inaccurate ranged WS) in 51 battles. If he can land Slug Shot and you can't even land Acids, I'm sorry, but you're doing something wrong.


Once again, if NIN/RNG can land f'ing Slug Shot, why can't THF/RNG land an Acid Bolt? The facts are against you, plain and simple.

Edited, Fri Feb 18 06:15:36 2005 by redvenomweb

Acid (and other status bolts) do not proc 100% of the time.

Especially on xp mobs.

Get me a peacock charm, behemoths +1, and dusk trousers and we can start talking.

I guess the +20~ acc from /rng would negate the -acc from rings and eating sushi would help - but......

This still comes down to personal preferece. I leave it at that.

/sigh... It doesn't matter what we tell him, he has it in his head that it will work and nothing will change that. If you've tried it and it didn't work, you simply didn't do it the right way. Of course in all actuality there is no right way because the job combo flat out sucks for exp.

Also, about the log, show more proof. I can make a nice little log right now that says I averaged 1200 damage shark bites on 51 ovinick in kuftal tunnel as thf/whm. As equally absurd as the parser results you've shown. It would be tough to find a ranger that can land 63 slug shots in a row on exp mobs much less a ninja.

Also about the nin/blm crap... How long is an average exp fight? Well... Chain #5 is something I can easily get in most parties, which is 70 seconds max not even accounting for the time to pull. With ninjutsu alone, even if you take ~900 damage in 45 seconds that's about 1400 damage per fight, decent damage. Nothing more then decent, nothing less, but is it worth it? Hell no, nothing but a gimpy black mage wasting tons of gil. Can't contribute to skillchains with weaponskills, can only burst for mediocre damage, and most importantly can't tank. It would be precisely like inviting a red mage and telling them to forget about refresh, curing and debuffing and just focus on nuking. There are situation where this job combination works, but an exp party is definitely not one of them.