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Thieves doing more than samurai?Follow

#1 Jan 10 2004 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
Sneak attack, Trick attack and their nasty WS that can be stacked with them cause a LOT of damage. I don't believe thieves can ever do as much as a dark knight or dragoon but what about samurai? Samurai's main thing is getting TP real fast then releasing it but maybe the thieves abilities would surpass even that? Had a debate with my friend and I'd like to know what it really is.
#2 Jan 12 2004 at 7:34 AM Rating: Default
You'd be wrong. Most DRG, DRK, and SAM don't play to their fullest I've seen. And those that do, only match good thieves. Friend dinged to 49 today and used penta-thrust with Beserk. (We were on a Rumble Crawler) He did 386 damage with his AF lance. I fired up Sneak+Trick+Viper Bite and did 497. Most our DRK could do by burning Beserk, Souleater, and Last Resort with her WS was 410. Didn't have a SAM on hand, but I know a 56 SAM Elvaan, and he still idolizes thief damage.

Only time we ever get completely out done is DRG/SAM played right, and a thief playing wrong. DRG/SAM can get constant TP for Penta-thrust, but I'll point out they can't hold the hate they spawn. A thief of the same level get nearly refilled TP with Dancing Edge, and if they are patient and stick to using it on a tank will do constant 1-2k per combo per minute. Let's see a DRG match that without dying. ;)

PS> DRKs suck. :P
#3 Jan 16 2004 at 1:06 AM Rating: Default
when the dark knight learns gullitine..um hello
#4 Jan 16 2004 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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SAM is a bad comparison, as SAM does the worst damage out of all the non-tank melee. THF beats SAM handily.

As for THF vs DRK, once DRK gets Guillotine, all illusions THF has about being uber-damage class are shattered. THFs job is hate placement, not naked damage. DRK will bury THF when it comes to throwing big numbers on the screen.
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#5 Jan 17 2004 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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DRG's Pentathrust is at lv 49, THF's Dancing Edge is at least lv 60...
Where is the Super Jump? Ouch, it is lv 55 skill
DRG/SAM at 60+ using Meditation, TP Gauge, multi Pentathrust + Wyvern's breath attack... and using Super jump to reset the hate when necessary... Hard to be wrong

SAM's strength is to chain weapon skill in the party (or even him/herself). May not be the best dmg dealer, but very party friendy specially u have another SAM and a BLM -> WS + WS + WS + MB with the mob's weakness is one of the best combo for dmg.

DRK's weapon is by default dealing more dmg than other classes. Imaging a DRK/SAM at 60+... roughly the same dmg or even more than a DRG/SAM. With Absorb-XXX spell... OMG

In mid-late lvl, THF's job is to transfer hate to a tank by dealing decent amount of dmg. It is very challenging to do it right. Of course, improve item drop and gil gain.
Moreover, SA and TA can be obtained by use THF as subjob. with more powerful weapon, the effect should be much better than using THF as mainjob.

Any thought?
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#6 Feb 04 2004 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Problem with subbing Thf for sneak and trick. Dont remember the exacts, but I know the end result. Basically, I THINK that you no longer get the Dex and Agi bonus added into the two attacks. So yes, weapon base damage is better. However, the Sneak and Trick damage is less.

Ex: Me and a Nin friend were partying. He does about 30 damage a swing with his sword. Sneak attacks for 60-70. I did about 20 damage with my dagger, sneak attack for 100-140. Even when I switched to sword, I would do low hundreds, always hitting for more damage than friend.

Like I said, I dont know the exact reasons, but Sneak and Trick from a subjob, while still considerable damage to a normal swing, are NOWHERE near what a thief can do.
#7 Feb 04 2004 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I could be mistaken, but Im pretty sure Ive seen samurais do penta thrust (if the samurai is using the right weapon of course)- if this is the case, a sam/war would do a stonger penta thrust than a drg/sam...although they wouldnt be able to ditch the agro.

Is penta thrust a drg only ws?
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#8 Feb 05 2004 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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DAM i just thought of the most damaging job combo!! As i red before on this post once Drk get that one good ws gulli sumthin lol they do more dam then a thief could hope now combine that wit a thief as ur sub and sneak+trick that!!! and im pretty sure that u get dancing edge around lvl 50-55 as thief not 60 but i could be wrong.! but could sum1 fill me in on how a drk does more dam then a thief.. cause im thinkin... wit viperbite fuidama does like400+ dam on IT's at lvl 33 so.. a highlvl thief duelwielding using a 5hit ws; dancing edge.. wouldnt that do like.. uh wait a sec got to go to my calc... like sumwhere around 4000 damage? and they beat the Sam out right away i mean they will get bout 12 tp - 6 for each dag at the delay of a great katana..
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#9 Feb 05 2004 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Dancing edge doesnt hit 5 times to get 4k dmg...dont know where you get that. Dancing edge like Viper Bite is a damage multiplier. Instead of 2x dmg Viper Bite does, Dancing Edge does 4x dmg for about 1200dmg stacked with sneak and trick.
#10 Feb 05 2004 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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if what you just said is thrue then ill be doing close to 4K with dancing edg, already at lvl 42 im dishing close to 1K with viper....
plus on another note i dont think DRK can get TP fast enough compared to thf/nin to compete dmg wise..

I was told by a lvl 75 thf that the only one to out dmg him was rng :P
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#11 Mar 10 2004 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Once you hit 60 and get dancing edge (yes, it really is 5x attack, you get back 25% TP from it), a THF is probably the highest DPS class in the game.
Quote:
SAM is a bad comparison, as SAM does the worst damage out of all the non-tank melee. THF beats SAM handily.
I find that quote both true and also extremely untrue. SAM supports renkei more than any other job. Renkei is the single bigest key to a high damage group. Soooo, while the SAM himself might not be cranking out the dps of a mnk or a thf, he'll be improving the group's ability to renkei considerably and thus is a very valuable contributor over many other jobs.
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As for THF vs DRK, once DRK gets Guillotine, all illusions THF has about being uber-damage class are shattered. THFs job is hate placement, not naked damage. DRK will bury THF when it comes to throwing big numbers on the screen.
I have the impression you have never seen guillotine used or maybe only seen it used on zero-xp newbie critters. It sucks. It never hits. It's damage is pathetic. Not only that, but in general, I'd say DRK is probably the worst of the damage jobs. They pretty much have no renkei at all. They have horribly slow TP generation. And their damage output is lower than all the others. What DRK does have is large numbers with each hit when they do manage to hit. That's not the same as a high total damage over the entire fight, though. Depending on level, a THF will be doing up to 70% of the damage to the critter, though 40% is more typical. If you don't need escape, for instance, you can get a 2nd THF instead of a BLM and extend your chains.

Rangers are nice, but remember what I said about renkei? Rangers miss on weaponskills moderately often. That ruins renkei. For a melee damager job other than THF, I'd rank their desirability like this: mnk, drg, sam, war. Poor drk's don't even make my list. I'll take a rng if if that's all that's there. I'd rather not invite the drk. Better to wait for a real damager or a friend. Friendship outweighs job (yeah, I have drk friends, pity me :).

Hmmm. One more general comment on the entire topic of "which job is best." It doesn't really matter all that much. There are roles that need filling by every group, but ultimately, what people look for is any job that can fill that role. If the selection is between a thf, drk, and sam, for instance, the group will probably take the the player they know best. The only time job matters is when you have no friends. If you're 50+ and living off random pickup groups with strangers that snag you for your job alone, I pity you.
#12 Mar 10 2004 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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After 50 it's not "how much damage can you do" or your job that matters NEARLY as much as who you know.

A dark's #1 top damage dealing trait is all the absorb spells they get. They are slooooow heavy hitters and team enablers - this is what they excel at.

I waiting to see some good dragoon strats involving penta and super jump - that maybe I can use to help place hate.... say possible a penta - double - viper combo where the dragoon doesnt get hit at all. ^^
#13 Mar 10 2004 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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OH and yes, samurai do get the same pentathrust that dragoon get only they have penta and meditate about 8 levels earlier than a dragoon does - and those are 8 long levels ^^
#14 Mar 10 2004 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
if what you just said is thrue then ill be doing close to 4K with dancing edg, already at lvl 42 im dishing close to 1K with viper....
plus on another note i dont think DRK can get TP fast enough compared to thf/nin to compete dmg wise..


First of all, at lvl 56 with beetle knife +1(dmg 21) and +18 dex and +14 agi, the highest i've ever hit for is 616 viper on IT onion heads in boyadah, so how are you doing anywhere even close to 1k damage at 42?

Even "IF" you are doing 1k vipers, viper is 2* damage and DE is 4* damage, so......
If viper at 2* damage is doing 1k and DE is double the multiplier viper is at 4* then you would only be doing 2k DE's.
#15 Mar 10 2004 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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close to 1k dmg at lvl 42 is bullsh.t lol

I'm level 51 thief, and let me just tell you, my highest ever was around 650 on a VT Fly with mithkabob and berserk


By the way, Warriors double attack DOES NOT stack with Sneak+Trick+Viper bite. If it does stack, it will only do a normal hit (like 30 damage)

Double attack does not fires your 500 dmg trick+sneak+viper again, and I think it's the same for Trick Attack

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#16 Mar 10 2004 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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My fuidama-viper damage varies greatly with the defence of the mob - my best yet was 710ish on an IT fly in the nest at 45 - but it was HEAVILY debufed and absorbed. My average on most mobs is around 550. On pali type ants in quicksand I'm doing about 350-400 ; ;.
1000+ damage could include chain damage. other skills + 600 viper + 350ish distortion...on the right mobs ;D
#17 Mar 10 2004 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I dissagree with what some people said here. SAM is more reliable damage dealer than a thief. My dancing edge does about 900is with effect 600is. Before you say wow however.. Dragoons around my level dish out 300-800 damages with their penta thursts. Dark does massive 2-3k damages with their last-beserk-soul-guil. Sam does about 300-600damages with each enpi.

I played with drk/thf before that does 1300 with sa+ta+slice. That just blows my damage out of water. Not even the infamous guil.. its only level 1 ws.

My gf (sam) who plays with me most of the time does 200-600 damages with enpi. She does at LEAST one ws on every monster we fight. Every 4 minutes, she can do self chain enpi-enpi for about 1100 damage total.

Smart sam provoke in the beginning of the fight, let the main tank and thief take their position to unleash sata. Usually they will get 40-50tp from that short few seconds already.

As you grow higher and higher, thf damages will get dropped among damage dealers place. My job in group is to help control agro, enchant group treasures, etc etc. NOT as a damage dealer.

This is not even take sam 250 gkt weapon skill into account. I heard it is super ws. I never seen it yet. Soon i will tho.. very soon.

Not to mention; thief damage depend entirely on group cooperation. If the tank you trick into moved 10 degrees between last second, you lose your idiolized damage. SAM,DRK,DRG has much reliable source of damage than us thiefs.

Edited, Wed Mar 10 12:40:46 2004 by akka
#18 Mar 10 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Theif doesn't seem to be a big player in the damage department but more like the perfect counterpart to the other melee damage dealers for renkei. A good thief with a cooperative team allows the other melee to work at their fullest potential without having to worry about getting hate - and thief does the same thing for mages.

With your front line and mages doing many 1000's of points of damage and healing per fight theif is the only class with the ability to put that hate directly onto the MT - where it belongs.

I only hope that I can still compete with all the /thf's out their past 60...but I can imagine that a pali/war drk/thf thf/??? could be an amazing front line past 60.
#19 Mar 10 2004 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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okay one question: where's the thf's damage without a sam there to bt? ;p I am a samurai and I use a log parser, I admit the thf consistantly outdamages me (i do 30-35% damage, usually thf does 40-50% and distortion will do like 10-20%) but most groups I'm in with thf have a pld and I'm the bt. if I'm not there, who will you sata off? thf and sam are a great combo, especially if the thf subs sam at higher level. due to their good tp gain they can almost keep up with a sam, unleashing distortions with each sata. why hate the sam when they are your best friend? many times a thf will invite me to a group ASAP because I help them maximize their damage, my TP will always be ready when their sata is and if they can have 100% every minute we're a match made in heaven. let's face the facts: main thf is reliant on backup tanks. without them the damage won't get to the MT at the start of fight, and without them there is no one to sata on after the first dump. sam doesn't need a thf to do big damage, they need someone to do level 3 skillchain with or blm's and someone else who can get TP fast.
#20 Mar 10 2004 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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How come nobody ever talk about MNK? I think MNK is an awesome damage dealer. Just because it's a basic job, I think a good MNK can wipe out DRG and SAM easily (Raging Fists and Ashura). As for DRKs, most of the players don't know how to play this class correctly. That's why we see so many weak DRK. But I have seen this class played nicely and they do an insane amount of damage. Not to mention they will blow away THF in terms of damage since they do it consistantly.
I have seen DRGs play to their fullest and I'm not all that impressed. If they're paired up with a THF before Dancing Edge they are useless. If they spam Pentathrust this implies the THF would need to trick back the hate because DRGs are weak little girls =p. But if they don't do Pentathrust they are just a waste of party slots. (So you see both the THF and the DRG can't use their best party strategy.)
As for SAM, it's true they can do many WS in a single fight but they're just not that good. There's very few times where I would actually want to invite a SAM into my party. Why? Because there's usually better choices. They hit too lightly and take damage too fast, all traded in for gaining fast TP but pulling off weak WS? I don't see a good trade off. (Ok they have one decent WS which is the one with all the flower petals :) Looks so pretty~)

**Anyways the important thing is as akka said, THFs aren't meant to be damage dealers. The only reason why we do such high damage once every 1 min. Is because we need that high damage figure to pull the hate to someone else. Effective hate control. Think about it, it's not cuz we are made to be damage dealers. (If that were true then how come we no longer see 2 THFs in a party?)

[edit]: I just read Sum's comment so I might as well add this in. Obviously you haven't seen THFs play to their true potential. Normally it is first WS to pull the hate and the Second WS to trick the hate back onto the main tank. Not to trick the hate onto the other melee classes. Any good THF knows that they can be paired with almost any other melee class and still effectively control hate. So don't get over excited just because SAM has a versatile WS scheme. (You still do bad damage :P)

Edited, Wed Mar 10 14:21:04 2004 by happygummy
#21 Mar 10 2004 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I spent most of last night as a RNG/THF in a party with a DRG/THF. My *normal* shot was doing more damage than any jump, and I was pulling off my WS more often than he could do double-thrust.
RNG is huge damage, but to be fair, RNG isn't melee. Think of RNG as a nuker, like a BLM: great for DMG, but either have a REALLY good tank or a dedicated healer, cuz you aren't gonna last long.
As a THF, my job isn't to do massive damage. Thieves are basically behind-the-scenes support characters - pulling, hate management, assists with WS, drop/gil increases, etc. Yes, fuidama is nice, but it's about equivalent to the cool moves of other classes. We're not there to shine, we're there so that others can - a DRK/THF doing SA/Guillotine is dead if we haven't stapled the mob to the main tank.
WHM and BRD are in the same kind of situation - most of the time, you're not going to be the one impressing everyone. You're there to keep the party alive and functioning, and hopefully to let it function to its maximum potential.
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#22 Mar 10 2004 at 4:58 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
[/quote]Sneak attack, Trick attack and their nasty WS that can be stacked with them cause a LOT of damage. I don't believe thieves can ever do as much as a dark knight or dragoon but what about samurai
Quote:
yes that uber dmg is only once a minute,wile a drk,sam and drg can do good dmg every single hit,while the thief is hitting for crap.


Quote:
You'd be wrong. Most DRG, DRK, and SAM don't play to their fullest I've seen. And those that do, only match good thieves. Friend dinged to 49 today and used penta-thrust with Beserk. (We were on a Rumble Crawler) He did 386 damage with his AF lance. I fired up Sneak+Trick+Viper Bite and did 497. Most our DRK could do by burning Beserk, Souleater, and Last Resort with her WS was 410. Didn't have a SAM on hand, but I know a 56 SAM Elvaan, and he still idolizes thief damage.
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eh so what? thats once a minute,i dont see any thiefs hitting for 100 dmg a hit,do you?


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Dancing edge doesnt hit 5 times to get 4k dmg...dont know where you get that. Dancing edge like Viper Bite is a damage multiplier. Instead of 2x dmg Viper Bite does, Dancing Edge does 4x dmg for about 1200dmg stacked with sneak and trick.
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dancing edge does hit 5times,well unless you miss.


Quote:
I have the impression you have never seen guillotine used or maybe only seen it used on zero-xp newbie critters. It sucks. It never hits. It's damage is pathetic. Not only that, but in general, I'd say DRK is probably the worst of the damage jobs. They pretty much have no renkei at all. They have horribly slow TP generation. And their damage output is lower than all the others. What DRK does have is large numbers with each hit when they do manage to hit. That's not the same as a high total damage over the entire fight, though. Depending on level, a THF will be doing up to 70% of the damage to the critter, though 40% is more typical. If you don't need escape, for instance, you can get a 2nd THF instead of a BLM and extend your chains.
Quote:
yes lets all listen to the non drk about a WS he never used before. yes it does hit, its dmg can be arround 450-500 without any buffs and if you think that dmg is crap then your a crazy. drk's can renkei with almost anything useing a greatsword. if the drk's you group with never hit then you must still be in the low lv's,or there just to cheap to buy equipment. a thf will be doing 70% of the dmg to mob? dude are you jokeing? there crap normal dmg and there uber dmg every minute does not=70% of the dmg on a mob,thats more like 20%. also what idoit in his right mind would pick a second thief over a blm?



Quote:
OH and yes, samurai do get the same pentathrust that dragoon get only they have penta and meditate about 8 levels earlier than a dragoon does - and those are 8 long levels ^^
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drg's get penta at lv 49 samurais get penta at lv 51 or was it 52. i dont see how a sam could get penta before a drg since sam has a b in polearms and drg has a A+ in polearms.

Quote:
Rangers are nice, but remember what I said about renkei? Rangers miss on weaponskills moderately often. That ruins renkei. For a melee damager job other than THF, I'd rank their desirability like this: mnk, drg, sam, war. Poor drk's don't even make my list. I'll take a rng if if that's all that's there. I'd rather not invite the drk. Better to wait for a real damager or a friend. Friendship outweighs job (yeah, I have drk friends, pity me :).
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dude its hard to belive you even play this game,with all the bad info you give. i cant beilive you'd rather have a drg,sam,war(i just cant beilive this one),mnk over a ranger. i highly doubt you grouped with a drk.

Quote:
Hmmm. One more general comment on the entire topic of "which job is best." It doesn't really matter all that much. There are roles that need filling by every group, but ultimately, what people look for is any job that can fill that role. If the selection is between a thf, drk, and sam, for instance, the group will probably take the the player they know best. The only time job matters is when you have no friends. If you're 50+ and living off random pickup groups with strangers that snag you for your job alone, I pity you.[quote]
70% of the time you play this game you will be with pickup groups,theres no getting past it,not all your friends are going to be playing the same exact time as you or do the same thing you want to do.


Edited, Wed Mar 10 17:09:39 2004 by Tetsunosuke
#23 Mar 11 2004 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Moreover, SA and TA can be obtained by use THF as subjob. with more powerful weapon, the effect should be much better than using THF as mainjob.


SA/TA was nerfed when THF is subbed in the DEC15/03 update and the next day there were a lot of ****** off DRK/THFs.

When THF is a sub SA/TA only does 1-2x normal damage and doesn't transfer hate, it's just a normal crit. (and I like it that way, non thieves shouldn't get full access to THF's trademark)

Quote:
i just thought of the most damaging job combo!! As i red before on this post once Drk get that one good ws gulli sumthin lol they do more dam then a thief could hope now combine that wit a thief as ur sub and sneak+trick that!!! [quote]DAM i just thought of the most damaging job combo!! As i red before on this post once Drk get that one good ws gulli sumthin lol they do more dam then a thief could hope now combine that wit a thief as ur sub and sneak+trick that!!!


Doesn't work, Square beat DRK/THF over the head with the nerf stick late last year. \

Edited, Thu Mar 11 02:56:47 2004 by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Mar 11 2004 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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[quote=Lobivopis
SA/TA was nerfed when THF is subbed in the DEC15/03 update and the next day there were a lot of ****** off DRK/THFs.

When THF is a sub SA/TA only does 1-2x normal damage and doesn't transfer hate, it's just a normal crit. (and I like it that way, non thieves shouldn't get full access to THF's trademark)
[/quote]

as far as i know from pol announcement is that:
1. sub /thf TA bonus damage from AGI was removed in Apr 2003 update.
2. sub /thf's SA only deals a critical hit, no bonus from DEX.
3. hate transfer function of sub /thf's TA is still available; SA was modified in terms of narrower SA area in Dec 2003 update.
(I checked up SE's official site for update news, couldn't find any notes regarding hate transfer of THF sub'ed TA.)

i'd be happy if someone out there can point out i miss some part of update news and point an (official) update news that refers to this TA.
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#25 Mar 11 2004 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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"drg's get penta at lv 49 samurais get penta at lv 51 or was it 52. i dont see how a sam could get penta before a drg since sam has a b in polearms and drg has a A+ in polearms. "

Tetsunosuke, you did not understand me. I said samurai get penta AND med 8 levels earlier than dragoon. (sam get med at 30 and penta at ~52....drg get penta at 49 and med at 60 with sub sam)
~52 is 8 levels before 60 =)
- that was my point

I am sorry I did not make that more clear.

Edited, Thu Mar 11 10:14:54 2004 by Dhita
#26 Mar 11 2004 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
[/quote]SA/TA was nerfed when THF is subbed in the DEC15/03 update and the next day there were a lot of ****** off DRK/THFs.

When THF is a sub SA/TA only does 1-2x normal damage and doesn't transfer hate, it's just a normal crit. (and I like it that way, non thieves shouldn't get full access to THF's trademark)
Quote:
the reason drk/thf's and thf's were ****** off in dec was becuase you couldnt do yokodama anymore,so now were stuck doing fuidama. also i dont know were you got were TA doesnt tranfer hate if you have thief sub,cuase it does. or else me and almost all the drk's at higher lv's wouldnt be subbing thief.


Quote:
Tetsunosuke, you did not understand me. I said samurai get penta AND med 8 levels earlier than dragoon. (sam get med at 30 and penta at ~52....drg get penta at 49 and med at 60 with sub sam)
~52 is 8 levels before 60 =)
- that was my point[quote]
to make your point you have to take penta out of that whole sentance.
#27 Mar 11 2004 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the reason drk/thf's and thf's were ****** off in dec was becuase you couldnt do yokodama anymore,so now were stuck doing fuidama. also i dont know were you got were TA doesnt tranfer hate if you have thief sub,cuase it does. or else me and almost all the drk's at higher lv's wouldnt be subbing thief.


That's what I had been told, I guess that was wrong. However it does only count as a standard crit now, I was told that by a DRK/THF directly.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 May 16 2016 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
DAM i just thought of the most damaging job combo!! As i red before on this post once Drk get that one good ws gulli sumthin lol they do more dam then a thief could hope now combine that wit a thief as ur sub and sneak+trick that!!! and im pretty sure that u get dancing edge around lvl 50-55 as thief not 60 but i could be wrong.! but could sum1 fill me in on how a drk does more dam then a thief.. cause im thinkin... wit viperbite fuidama does like400+ dam on IT's at lvl 33 so.. a highlvl thief duelwielding using a 5hit ws; dancing edge.. wouldnt that do like.. uh wait a sec got to go to my calc... like sumwhere around 4000 damage? and they beat the Sam out right away i mean they will get bout 12 tp - 6 for each dag at the delay of a great katana..


lol what?
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