Mutilate VS 30-0-31 VS Shadowstep.Follow

OK , I'll make this quick and painless :

1624 AP
117 Hit Rating
21.87% crit
Main Hand : Whispering Blade of Slaying w/ Crusader
Off Hand : Ced's Carver w/ +15 AGI

Play time : 80% Pvp , 20% farming/5 men Instances.

Currently Shadow Step specc and kinda love it in BGs , but for Arenas I was wondering if the other two were better.

What would you go ?

Thanks :)

With those daggers, Mutilate would be best. Any other build should really use a faster offhand.

Prepare for several 1k-2k crits. Mutilate was made to crit.

more like 2k-3k :D

Not sure i like my new combat swords.

After trying Shadowstep, I was pretty disappointed.

And I have to finally agree with alot of the veteran's on here talking about burst damage versus sustained.

Now I'm a huge fan of Ambush, and for PVP, I think a 30/0/31 build is a smarter choice than wasting the points to get Shadowstep.

Cold Blood is a Rogue's best friend in PVP, in my opinion. The previous 21/8/22 builds prior to Burning Crusade showed this to be the most popular and highly versitile build.

I'm sure as I slowly make my way to 70, I'll have tried every build possible.

-_-;;

Try sapping before you do your shadowstep if you're having some lag issues, or if the players won't stand still long enough to pull it off. Make sure to bring your blinding powder to the arena, it's a godsend as well. Let's you set yourself up for a second shadowstep possibly without wasting a vanish.

I'm about 50% PvP and 50% PvE. I've been 30/0/31 since 70 and I LOVE it. It is so versatile. It gives you preparation, which for Arena and battlegrounds is THE talent to have. The only thing that is lacking in this build is improved gouge, which would make this dagger build VERY powerful. With Opportunity the only damage-boosting talent for Ambush that I have from Sub, my ambushes hit regularly for around 1.2k, with crits as high as 2.4k

I was Shadowstep from 66 to 70 and played it at 70 for awhile. Didn't like it, just my opinion.

I've never tried Multilate, mainly because I love the 30/0/31

Edited, May 21st 2007 9:35pm by Mutalisk

With Cold Blood, you're talking about over 3,000 damage on cloth, 2,000 on plate. It's also 10 seconds of stun, and two Mutilates. 3 of you use Tea or Blood Elf racial. Try to do that with Backstab.


I have a combined 400 white DPS with +16% chance to hit and about a 28% crit rate (can't remember the exact number). That's not insignificant. Mutilate will be slightly lower (mainly the crit), but "a few hits" is dismissive.


I'll go with the former. 3k+ is assuming cloth, you're never going to get close to that on plate. It's also only a 70% chance, if it doesn't crit, you're pretty much boned. CB/Mutilate is 100% (if you miss an instant attack on a stunned player, lol @ you for having no +hit).


You're kidding, right? You're talking about how great Backstab in, and you claim to generate fast CPs? That's Backstab's biggest flaw, that it has **** poor CP generation. Have you ever played a Rogue before?

By the way, Mutilate is hands down the fastest CP generation there is, and by a large margin. It's also the most energy efficient. With a 25% crit rate, it produces an average of 2.56 CPs per 60 energy. Backstab produces 1. In case math isn't your strong point, that's a 156% increase of Backstab's efficiency. If you pick up Seal Fate, even with a 100% backstab crit rate, Mutilate is still better. For the energy efficiency to be equal, you'd need a 100% crit rate on Backstab with Seal Fate and 0% on Mutilate.


Backstab is never going to outdamage Mutilate on a hit for hit basis, especially a non-combat build. The reason Combat Daggers beats Mutilate in raid output is because of the talents in the tree, not because Backstab is a stronger skill. If you could go 41 Combat and use Mutilate, the damage output would be obscene.


On cloth, on a very good crit.


Yeah, your Eviscerates would indeed be better than a Mutilate build's Eviscerate. It's just too damn bad that Envenom doesn't hit for 3k+ on any armor type (my personal record was 3,800 on Aeonus, try to do that with Eviscerate). Oh, wait, it does. 3300 damage crit on a pally franticly trying to dispel my poisons ftw.


See the sticky for a mathematical proof of how Mutilate has higher energy efficiency, does more damage, and produces more than twice the CPs of Backstab. I'm sorry you aren't "convinced", but these are facts. My best Bcakstab has been about 3k with full raid buffs and flask. My best mutilate was 3,600, without raid buffs (I was flasked, though).

Seriously, Subtlety fails at sustained DPS. Nice openers, then what?

Edited, May 22nd 2007 2:07am by Nooblestick

Well , I'm now Mutilate :)

Since I BG/Arena most of the time , I chose 41-0-20 over 41-20-0 to improve Stealth and stuff.

I ended up with this build :

I wasn't sure about some things , such as either go Vile Poisons or Improved Poisons...I went for Vile , since Envenom is so cool as a finisher.
Also I was kind of clueless about Deadened Nerves...Wans't sure if I was suppose to take it , but 5%...Well when a Warrior hits me for 2500 , I don't think cutting 125 dmg out of it is worth 5 points...

I also had to choose between Imp.Ambush (which can be helpfull sometimes) and Initiative.I took Initiative , so that to be almost sure about having 5 points after CS --> Mut , crit or not.

I know patch is coming so Imp. Sap may be worthless , but still for the moment it's one of the best utility talent.



I'm really enjoying it right now (playing WSG since it was the BG of the Week) , it's not as "shiny" as Shadowstep but it's definitly more reliable.Can't wait to get used to it and learn how to play it.

Oh , one thing though : I miss Prep badly :)

The build looks pretty solid, but with a couple weak points.

1. Imp. Ambush isn't really needed for PvP, since you'll be CSing 100% of the time. I would, however, move 2 points from Camo to Elusiveness, since your build is all about PvP. 90 second Cooldown on Blind is just plain sexy.

2. The discussion about Vile Poisons versus Improved Poisons has been going back and forth for a while, and I'm firmly of the camp that every mutilate build should have both.

3. Eviscerate is just not going to be used. Envenom is much better for this build.

Here's how I would have done the build. Pretty much the same, but with a few minor tweaks here and there.

Weaknesses this build has.

1. No Imp. KS. Very nice talent, but I'm a huge fan of Improved Poisons, and the points would really have to come from there.

2. Reliant on Deadly Poison on both weapons in all situations. If you get the opener off, you'll most likely have your target dead or very close before long, and Vanish can be used in the Arena to reset the fight without the use of an incapacitate. I have lost more than one Arena due to not being able to Blind. I've also won just as many, if not more, by tearing through plate armor like it was tissue paper using Envenom.

Depends.With daggers , stunlock is effective only if you can premed your target , or get both initiative to procc and crit on your backstab.Now yeah with hemo (so basically anything other thatn daggers) you can stunlock pretty good.

Now nooblestick you're gonna have to explain to me why 3/3 Imp. Gouge if you rely so much on deadly poison.I mean , even if you haven't hit your target yet , you have a 40% chance to land your deadly poison on your target by gouging , basically ******** the 3 points here.Am I getting something wrong ?

If you check patch notes, -
Gouge: This ability will no longer trigger poisons (and thus break
itself).

So envenom to clear poisons+gouge.

I would go 31/0/30 before 30/0/31.. Energy Counter, and StunWatch would both be needed to make this build work to its fullest potential.

And as for Mutilate vs shadowstep, mutilate would be the better in my opinion.
Ive never been a big fan of opening with ambush(unless its a halfdead clothies or even mail wearer), i always perfer to start a fight in control.

With that being said i also like to control where im "walking to" shadow step got me into trouble to many times or wasted it with that 1-2 second delay after landing. With the new Imp. Sap, sapping before SS might be more viable.

As for the mutilate build. Its hit in miss in PvP, sure like "noob" said you can come out with ... CS > CB mutilate > KS mutilate, but the second mutilate depending on gear is only going to have a 20-30% chance to crit.
Also with mutilate build, you lose out on survivabilty and lack of choices.

With 31/0/30 you have better energy managment as opposed to what noob had said..
Cheap shot 40 energy? Yes please. If you use an energy counter, you can come out with CS With 20 energy already back. Making your CS in "reality" only a 20 energy move, leaving you with 90 of 110 energy..
Backstab with a 50-60* crit rate, 3/4 fight you will have your 5 CP KS.
Youll get one more click before its time to KS.. Leaving you with an almost full energy bar and a 6 second stun.

2xBS and eviscrete.. Where with mtilate you have enough energy for 1 mutilate. Granted arena style fights are more complicated, but working with another rouge in 2v2.. Most fights one of us can keep the other out of the fight long enough to do this.

31/0/30 -
30 second dodge? Yes please
30 second sprint? Yes please
2x vanish? Yes please
2x Cold Blood? Do i need to say it... Yes please

Survivability > Zomgwtfuberpwn damage