Combat or Mutilate SpecFollow

It's tough to answer this question really because it should be more about what you enjoy (especially since you are like me, and spend a lot of your time solo).

I was combat swords from 15-65. Then the other day while leveling in the Outlands, I decided it was time for a change. Combat swords just didn't seem to be quite as powerful even after getting SS's to crit for 750ish (but still only normal damage of 300ish). It was also getting a bit boring.

So, I respecced to Mutilate and went out and got my hands on some good mutilate daggers from some simple group quests, and I am loving it. I find that I have much less down time due to the better CP regeneration and more use of stuns. It's also just a lot more fun in general. I find it also has more utility in a small group setting, and feel like it is out DPSing my combat swords build with combat potency (which didn't proc very consistently...sometimes it would proc over and over in a fight generating more energy than I could use, and other times it would never proc).

The big issue is handling multiple mobs or adds. You have a better setup if you pick up imp sap, but you can't do anything with that when you get adds. At first I was getting messed up pretty bad with adds since I was awkward with the new functionality of the build, but now that I have firm grasp I feel I handle the situations much better, and find that I don't have to rely on big cooldowns too often. I do find that I'll use blind powder a lot more than I did in combat however (with adds). I miss riposte, but then it's not so important when you barely get touched.

When I duo or trio some group quests with my friends, I can utilize my points in imp ambush and open with ambush>mutilate>evis. With my friends there adding damage, not much survives past 4 seconds, and big boss fights are a blast too (especially when they aren't immune to stuns!) The reliance on poisons isn't as bad as I thought it would be either, and I feel more like a rogue...the only thing I don't like is when you have a lot of time wasted with travel or other side track things that makes you waste your semi-expensive poisons. They really aren't that bad with the kind of money you make in the outlands though. It would have been bad if they went with imbued vials, but they kept them using crystal viles, so it's all gravy!

I can't tell you which way to go, but I can tell you that mutilate is more than viable for solo/duo when played right, so if you find it more than fun than combat, stick with it. If you find combat more fun, switch back.

Edited, Feb 9th 2007 11:10am by DJmob

Mutilate, while works for grinding, doesn't work that well for leveling. You really can't do anything if the mob does not die from your CB-Eviscerate. Also, Mutilate is extremely dependent on two factors, your daggers and your crit chance, so if your gear sucks don't bother using Mutilate, you'll end up taking more damage than Combat Swords.

And you never ever get Imp Ambush with Mutilate, its just a waste of 3 points that could have gone into Initiative. Hint hint, you need the mob to be stunned to do Mutilate.

Personally, I leveled to 70 with Combat Swords to Mutilate to Hemo. I prefer Hemo out of all 3; I can generate CPs at a similar pace to Mutilate and survive multiple mobs with Preparation.

Did you use Hemo for PvE and PvP or just PvP? I think that Hemo could be very good for PvP but PvE you end up against undead and what not and they don't typically bleed.

Also, how good is Hemo after your exposed / out of stealth?

I played combat swords pretty much from whatever level you have enough points in combat to consider yourself a combat sword rogue to 60... I then raided with it almost exclusively for a total of about 80 days played. I wanted something new and when the PvP revamp and new tallents came out, I picked up 2 GM daggers and went mutilate. I haven't looked back since. The leveling 60-70 was great (I do mostly solo stuff) with mutilate. You also take less damage and have less downtime than combat swords. I did try swords again at level 68... it lasted all of 5-6 hours of playing... then I went back to mutilate.

At 58 you should have enough points to make a viable mute build. 41 into assassination, 5 into opp, and I would put 2 in imp sap. You can then fill out stuff like MoD in your next few levels if you so choose. Imp sap is definitely useful in a ton of outlands quests... being able to CC and still get an opener cuts down on time drastically. Also, for leveling take remorseless. While it's not an end game tallent, it's absolutely great with mute for grinding/questing. Having 60-70% chance to crit on your first mutilate allows you to chain mobs quite fast.

For leveling you use crip + instant poisons on mutilate so you never have to take unecessary damage. I can go completely untouced anytime I want, unless it's an elemental (which have lower HP and go down fast enough). Usually I just let the mob hit me a couple times waiting for energy regen for a KS so I can double mutilate, and my Power Infused Mushroom comes in handy there...also Charm of Aclarity (sp?) is handy for rogue soloing as well.

Sometimes I will use SS to finish a mob off after Evis, but thats usually the last 1-2%. If it has anymore, you just walk back a couple steps, wait for energy, gouge or ks if you have cp, and finish them with a mutilate. Honestly the only time I use Cold Blood while leveling is for emergencies because it really isn't necessary to take single target mobs down.

The ONLY mobs that have given me trouble so far on a mutilate build in outlands are the Ogre Shamans in Nagrand. They just plain suck. And I saw a pretty well decked out combat sword rogue take one on and he didn't fair too well either, so I think they are just a little too powerful.

I've also found imp sap and imp ambush handy for 5-mans (along with 3 in initiative). Imp ambush works great on casters while leveling too as Ambush>Gouge>regen/Mut>KS>Mut drops them just fine, even if it is unecessary (fun factor). I have been considering shifting points from Ruthlessness to Imp Backstab for poison immune mobs. With cp generation I get with the build, I don't think I'll miss Ruthlessness - I could be way off on this one though.

I've also found some really good daggers for fairly simple quest lines (group) in outlands so I don't think itemization is really a problem.

Edited, Feb 12th 2007 12:06pm by DJmob

When I respec to mutilate, I honestly think I'll be taking 3/3 imp backstab. The syenergy talents for mutilate and backstab (excluding combat tree's dagger specialization) are the same. So when I feel like using one over the other, I'll have that option. I like to switch things up, and the option to use two different damage abilities without sacrificing power from either is damn -appealing- to me.

Right now.. I'm just going dual sword assassination. I can't say no to having SS crit consistently for 280-355 and white damage critting up to 240. I really can't say no to soloing my orange group quests through raw damage either. =D

@Lord Meridus
Its not so much your gear (although Mutilate is heavily gear dependent), its that its such crap damage for 60 energy if you don't crit or proc poisons. While the latter can be easily overcomed, the crit chance drops as you level, maybe if your gear compensated for it I can see it working out, but with my rogue at around 20% it was just not working out well enough for me to use it.

Now when I was 60 pre-BC, my crit chance was nearing 28% it was probably the best farming build I could have gone. But as is, until I get my hands on more crit gear, its just not happening.


From my experience, I went from Combat Swords up until the end of Terrokar Forest and switched to Mutilate once I went into the Nagrand quests. I had significant issues taking down mobs efficiently, basically if it didn't drop after my second finisher (post Kshot post Gouge) I was taking a good amount of damage, maybe slightly less than Combat Swords. Then switched to Hemo and I am loving the control and damage comparisons.

@Banatu
Ruthlessness >>> Imp. Backstab, there is no reason to be Backstabbing if you have Mutilate, just like there is no reason for you to be using Sinister Strike if you have Hemo.

No reason to be backstabbing when I can mutilate. Sure, I'll buy that. But I'll be switching from assasin swords to backstab fairly soon. Likely when I can get my hands on better daggers than swords, it'll happen. Maybe, at max, level 45 this will happen. SO. What do I do between 45 and 55, when I respec for mutilate with opportunity? I'll be backstabbing.

I know it doesn't make too much sense, but I like variety. I switch my build every few weeks, simply because I've gotten bored and want something new. With Imp Backstab already in the bank for when I get mutilate, I'll be able to do that (effectively, too) without a respec. Which is starting to get.. expensive.


Also. Elementals + mutilate = haha. You suck, puny elf. It'll be for grinding and leveling, not for endgame.

Edited, Feb 12th 2007 12:21pm by Banatu

Mutilate is an excellent levelling build. I take very very little damage. There are times when Mutilate won't crit and I didn't do enough damage post KS that my eviscerate won't kill the mob. That is when you use CB+ eviscerate. At wost, they have 1/16th of their health left and you can gouge (it has 10 second cool down, which ~5 seconds is the enemy stunned if you do it right). And usually, you get a free combo point +25 energy so you can just Eviscerate again or do an SS and Evicerate to kill it off.

I do similar to what Lord does. CS (wait for poison proc as long as possible) -> mutilate. If I have 5 combo points, I will wait until I get about 3/4 energy and KS, if I have 4, I gouge, wait until gouge is just about up and KS (when I have about 3/4 energy). Then KS, Mutilate, Mutilate, Evisicerate. Throw the CB in there before I Eviscerate if the crits were bad.

The key is waiting until you can do two Mutilates during your KS.

If you are having trouble leveling with this build you are probably doing something wrong. Make sure you have Imp. Gouge and points in places that aren't retarded like Imp. BS.