All - I was recently elected to be class leader in my guild. I wanted to write a basic guide to let the Rogues in my guild know what are acceptable builds and some basic strategy. I left out builds I thought were stupid (e.g. dodge builds) and just kept ones that I thought were most useful. I'm posting this up so that some others can benefit from this. Also, there are many experts here and I would love some constructive feedback.
I am writing this guide to help you do the best you can in instances and PvP. Fortunately, there is a lot of flexibility with our builds so none of you should feel too constricted with what you should play.
So, what makes up a good build? This depends on whether you are more focused on PvP or running instances. While any of these builds will be decent in both categories, they will definitely favor one or the other (with the exception of the Hemo build).
So let's jump right in to this. I will supply a link to builds and discuss the pros and cons of each build.
Combat builds
Sword/Mace:
(20/31/0) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?fhecoxZGoEzMVzx0o
(18/33/0) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?foecoxZG0EzMVzxco
Dagger:
(16/25/10) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?i0eMoxZhfi00yzZ0xx
PvP Dagger build
(21/8/22) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?ihecox0oZGcZ0xE0hbk
Hemo build
(21/3/27) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?fhecox0oZhZVEV00cR0o
Seal Fate build
(31/8/12) http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?fhecoxLotGcZV0x0b
If you are in a raid and want to do the most damage, the combat builds are hands down the best build you can possibly choose. It gives you the most damage output and the best chance to lead the DPS meters. If you play mace, then replace sword specialization with mace specialization. For Combat daggers, you can choose either MoD or Camo (or a combo). I feel MoD is less useful than Camo for both PvP and raids but opinions vary. While these builds are great in instances, in PvP you don't have as much burst damage and can not stun lock as effectively. Note: combat daggers scales the most with AP. It really begins to show off its power when you have about 800 AP and shines when you can take it to 1000 AP.
The PvP Daggers build is great for PvP. You get both CB and prep allowing you to guarantee a crit as well as reset all of your cool downs. I would say the points in this build are distributed exactly where they should be. The only place I would think about changing is the 2 points in Imp. Rupture for Imp. Sap or MoD. While still great for instances, this is weaker than the combat builds.
The Hemo build is one that can do well in both PvP and PvE. Hemo uses so little energy, it makes stunlocking your opponent a breeze. Also, it's debuff is very useful to everyone in the instance increasing overall DPS. This build is generally used by people who have extremely powerful epic quality weapons as the damage output isn't as high as other builds.
Basic PvE Instance Strategy
Surprisingly, the majority of the damage that a Rogue does is not through your special attacks or finishers. It is from the normal swings you do. That is why the single most important thing you can do is keep Slice and Dice up the whole battle. The general rule of thumb is on trash mobs you start your SnD with 1 CP and on bosses you start with 2. You will then BS or SS until SnD is about to expire and then hit it again. If you have lots of time left on SnD and built up 5 CP, you can use a finisher. This will generally be evicierate or Rupture. Whatever you do, do not use Expose Armor as this overwrites Warriors sunders which makes it harder for them to hold hate.
I know that you may like seeing the nice Eviscerate crits and brag about that large amount of damage you are doing. But, ultimately, Eviscerate and Rupture do a fixed amount of damage. No matter how much you improve your weapons, those abilities will do the exact same damage. SnD on the other hand scale with your weapons and armor...that's why it is so important to keep that up in all battles.
Ultimately, if you want to lead the charts you need to stay alive. So at all costs, avoid pulling aggro. While Feints can help with this, they will be taking away from your energy. Your main form of hate control will be trhough vanish. It can be used if you pull aggro, but mainly you use it to erase all your hate once the tank has it firmly on them allowing you to go all out.
I hope you find this guide useful and if you have any questions about your build or what you should be doing in an instance. Feel free to send me a tell in game and I will be glad to help you out.
Raid Requirements: Always come prepared
When you show up to a raid, please be prepared. This means having plenty of flash powder, bliding powder, and poisons. If we are fighting runners, be sure to use crippling poison on your MH. If you show up to a raid and have to ask others for these rogue basics, it will not look good to others. Please have these on hand at all times.
Edited, Jun 11th 2006 at 1:55am EST by Phaltruism
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Hi Phal, grats on the promotion!
I would mention 1 thing though, the Combat daggers spec is the one that scales the most with Gear, so you do need roughly 700+ AP for it to do the same damage as the 31/8/12. At 800 AP it is significantly better, and at 1k AP it will put everyone else to shame not counting Combat Swords, which also is a wonderful scale build.
Also Combat daggers requires some getting used to, for me it was a DRASTIC change to try it. One which I did not like, and specc'ed back to maces. But now I have enough Data to comapre it to maces some more and see which I will use from now on.
One thing you did not mention that you will NEED to cover is the use of Feint and which encounters to spam it, and which ones not to waste energy on. And the importance of going to aq20 and getting feint Rank 5.
Another Spec you didn't cover is Combat Fists, Which is only applicable once you start getting CotBD. But that is a whole other topic, and very very debateable.
I would mention 1 thing though, the Combat daggers spec is the one that scales the most with Gear, so you do need roughly 700+ AP for it to do the same damage as the 31/8/12. At 800 AP it is significantly better, and at 1k AP it will put everyone else to shame not counting Combat Swords, which also is a wonderful scale build.
Also Combat daggers requires some getting used to, for me it was a DRASTIC change to try it. One which I did not like, and specc'ed back to maces. But now I have enough Data to comapre it to maces some more and see which I will use from now on.
One thing you did not mention that you will NEED to cover is the use of Feint and which encounters to spam it, and which ones not to waste energy on. And the importance of going to aq20 and getting feint Rank 5.
Another Spec you didn't cover is Combat Fists, Which is only applicable once you start getting CotBD. But that is a whole other topic, and very very debateable.
SF should be ranked higher for instances than CB/Prep and hemo. The extra CP allows for more finishers. Every other build uses cp for keeping SnD up. Seal fate allows for ruptures and eviscerates between SnD cycles. Also, the hemo debuff is 60 dps under the ideal situations (all charges being used as soon as applied, hemo being used as soon as possible).
F.I.L.A.
Thanks for the comments, I'll edit some when I get a chance, Saber.
Isior, we can debate this, but I really disagree. Hemo for sure is should be ranked higher than Seal Fate for the simple fact that it is increasing overall DPS of the raid. It might be better than the PvP dagger build, but I don't think so for one main reason: Eviscerate and Rupture are crap because they don't scale with weapons. If you are using CP for an Eviscerate, you better be using CB to get a crit. Having prep let's you get an extra CB in. Also, if you do rupture, you have 2 points in Imp. Rupture to increase damage.
On the other hand, you can put points in poision and increase the proc rate or damage of Seal Fate. I'd say they are pretty close for instances while PvP daggers is clearly better for PvP.
Unlike a lot of people, my mind can be changed...so please keep up the comments.
Isior, we can debate this, but I really disagree. Hemo for sure is should be ranked higher than Seal Fate for the simple fact that it is increasing overall DPS of the raid. It might be better than the PvP dagger build, but I don't think so for one main reason: Eviscerate and Rupture are crap because they don't scale with weapons. If you are using CP for an Eviscerate, you better be using CB to get a crit. Having prep let's you get an extra CB in. Also, if you do rupture, you have 2 points in Imp. Rupture to increase damage.
On the other hand, you can put points in poision and increase the proc rate or damage of Seal Fate. I'd say they are pretty close for instances while PvP daggers is clearly better for PvP.
Unlike a lot of people, my mind can be changed...so please keep up the comments.
Hemo costs 35 energy. Assuming you use it whenever you have enough energy, that’s once every 3.5 seconds. Hemo gives an extra 7 damage per hit. 7*30 charges = 210 damage. 210 damage/3.5 seconds is 60 dps. That’s assuming all of your charges are used up between hemos, which isn't likely to happen. It would be better if hemo could stack but it simply refreshes it’s charges. So any other rogue that can put 60 dps more than a hemo rogue is helping the raid more. SF and combat builds can easily put out 60 dps more.
You’re right. SnD is the only finisher that scales with gear. But that doesn’t make the other finishers useless. At least not if you have CPs to dump. A CB evis is almost a crit backstab. For less energy. And rupture isn’t mitigated by armor. For finishers, SnD>CB Evis>Full/Most of Rupture>Non CB Evis. Comparing SF to CB/Prep, seal fate is getting combo points at least twice as fast as any other build. Most builds use all CPs to fuel SnD. SF can easily get enough points for another finisher btw SnD cycles. No other build can. Yes, CB/Prep will get to use CB twice in 3 minutes. But that’s once every 10 minutes. And you don’t have the combo points to make it worthwhile if you’re taking the time to keep SnD up. The lack of CPs also devalues the imp rupture talent. Using prep on CB, you’d be getting 4 CB Eviscerates in 10 minutes assuming you can get the CPs to make it worthwhile. I’d be getting 3. And ruptures. And regular eviscerates.
I left out poison talents since most people don’t get them. In a 31/8/12, you have to use 3 points for fillers. Most people ignore the poison talents because of immunities and resist rates. And because it doesn’t help much in pvp. Either way, the reasons listed above are more than enough to separate Seal Fate from CB/Prep and hemo.
I'd say all three are pretty close for pvp while SF is clearly better for raiding.
You’re right. SnD is the only finisher that scales with gear. But that doesn’t make the other finishers useless. At least not if you have CPs to dump. A CB evis is almost a crit backstab. For less energy. And rupture isn’t mitigated by armor. For finishers, SnD>CB Evis>Full/Most of Rupture>Non CB Evis. Comparing SF to CB/Prep, seal fate is getting combo points at least twice as fast as any other build. Most builds use all CPs to fuel SnD. SF can easily get enough points for another finisher btw SnD cycles. No other build can. Yes, CB/Prep will get to use CB twice in 3 minutes. But that’s once every 10 minutes. And you don’t have the combo points to make it worthwhile if you’re taking the time to keep SnD up. The lack of CPs also devalues the imp rupture talent. Using prep on CB, you’d be getting 4 CB Eviscerates in 10 minutes assuming you can get the CPs to make it worthwhile. I’d be getting 3. And ruptures. And regular eviscerates.
I left out poison talents since most people don’t get them. In a 31/8/12, you have to use 3 points for fillers. Most people ignore the poison talents because of immunities and resist rates. And because it doesn’t help much in pvp. Either way, the reasons listed above are more than enough to separate Seal Fate from CB/Prep and hemo.
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I'd say they are pretty close for instances while PvP daggers is clearly better for PvP.
I'd say all three are pretty close for pvp while SF is clearly better for raiding.
F.I.L.A.
Isior;
I think he just listed the builds in a random order, not in a better to worse rate. He just listed the acceptable builds, and then in the same order again for the explenation. No big Deal.
Your theory of on Hemo builds VS Seal fate only covers the pros of SF, you forgot to mention that Pros of Hemo. Yes hemo adds raid damage, but hemo is also the ONLY weapon skill that was NOT normalized, so if you get a good slow weapon in on that, you will be hitting significantly harder, while also adding 60Dps to the raid. and in a melee heavy fight my guild can knock them off in less than 1 second. We happen to have 2 hemo rogues, and they have mastered the art of timing them so that we efectively use up the charges of the first, before the second goes on. and that is an extra 120Dps for the raid while they are still doing considerable amounts of damage, equivalent or greater to SF or PvP daggers in specific fights wehre the mob has to be constantly repositioned.
but I do agree that PvP Daggers, if they want to be hard core raiders need to be talked to, and Pick up a Real raid build.
Combat Swords = Combat Daggers > Hemo = SF > Combat Maces
I would like to point out, that a dedicated player with a knowledge of his rogue, can be the top DpS between these 5 builds. They are VERY close to one or another. If I get lucky with a couple of crits, it will put me above the rest since I currently have the most AP of the rogues, Where as if I don't crit, I am passed by 1 of the others. It is a difference of maybe 4 or 5k out of the 115k we put out on a boss fight. where as the PvP builds, or "home brewed" put out around 70k
Edited, Wed Jun 7 15:27:00 2006 by SaberStriker
I think he just listed the builds in a random order, not in a better to worse rate. He just listed the acceptable builds, and then in the same order again for the explenation. No big Deal.
Your theory of on Hemo builds VS Seal fate only covers the pros of SF, you forgot to mention that Pros of Hemo. Yes hemo adds raid damage, but hemo is also the ONLY weapon skill that was NOT normalized, so if you get a good slow weapon in on that, you will be hitting significantly harder, while also adding 60Dps to the raid. and in a melee heavy fight my guild can knock them off in less than 1 second. We happen to have 2 hemo rogues, and they have mastered the art of timing them so that we efectively use up the charges of the first, before the second goes on. and that is an extra 120Dps for the raid while they are still doing considerable amounts of damage, equivalent or greater to SF or PvP daggers in specific fights wehre the mob has to be constantly repositioned.
but I do agree that PvP Daggers, if they want to be hard core raiders need to be talked to, and Pick up a Real raid build.
Combat Swords = Combat Daggers > Hemo = SF > Combat Maces
I would like to point out, that a dedicated player with a knowledge of his rogue, can be the top DpS between these 5 builds. They are VERY close to one or another. If I get lucky with a couple of crits, it will put me above the rest since I currently have the most AP of the rogues, Where as if I don't crit, I am passed by 1 of the others. It is a difference of maybe 4 or 5k out of the 115k we put out on a boss fight. where as the PvP builds, or "home brewed" put out around 70k
Edited, Wed Jun 7 15:27:00 2006 by SaberStriker
Quote:
Your theory of on Hemo builds VS Seal fate only covers the pros of SF, you forgot to mention that Pros of Hemo. Yes hemo adds raid damage, but hemo is also the ONLY weapon skill that was NOT normalized, so if you get a good slow weapon in on that, you will be hitting significantly harder, while also adding 60Dps to the raid. and in a melee heavy fight my guild can knock them off in less than 1 second.
I know that hemo didn't get normalized. But Hemo doesn't pick up a weapon spec, precision, DW spec, or BF. So if you're just considering yellow dmg, Hemo>SS. When you include the rest, combat builds will be able to easily seperate themselves from hemo.
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We happen to have 2 hemo rogues, and they have mastered the art of timing them so that we efectively use up the charges of the first, before the second goes on. and that is an extra 120Dps for the raid while they are still doing considerable amounts of damage, equivalent or greater to SF or PvP daggers in specific fights wehre the mob has to be constantly repositioned.
Hemo doesn't stack. It just refreshes itself. For your raid to be getting the 120 dps, it would have to be getting 30 hits every 1.75 seconds. You can't consistently remove all charges without your hemo rogues are holding back by waiting on all the hemo charges to be used up.
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I think he just listed the builds in a random order, not in a better to worse rate. He just listed the acceptable builds, and then in the same order again for the explenation. No big Deal.
I assumed when he said "I would rank this below combat and PvP daggers because currently our finishers are very weak" he was talking about pve since it would contradict the last sentence he said about combat builds.
Edited, Wed Jun 7 18:55:26 2006 by Isior
F.I.L.A.
It is really rough to rank these other than saying that the combat specs are superior for raiding than the others (though I still would argue it is good to have one or two Hemo rogues). Maybe I should just leave it at that on there and remove my comments. I meant this more as acceptable builds for our guild for raiding/PVP.
Considering that we do have people heavily in PvP, thus justifying SF and PvP dagger builds, are these builds acceptable? Are there ones I left out?
And as far as seal fate goes, where else would you put those points other than posions? Imp. KS? That's terrible. Some mobs are immune, true. But for the ones that aren't or are just resistant, it is the only thing that is going to up your DPS left that you can choose (assuming you have ~+6 to hit and you aren't likely going to get the killing blow).
Considering that we do have people heavily in PvP, thus justifying SF and PvP dagger builds, are these builds acceptable? Are there ones I left out?
And as far as seal fate goes, where else would you put those points other than posions? Imp. KS? That's terrible. Some mobs are immune, true. But for the ones that aren't or are just resistant, it is the only thing that is going to up your DPS left that you can choose (assuming you have ~+6 to hit and you aren't likely going to get the killing blow).
Isior:
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I know that hemo didn't get normalized. But Hemo doesn't pick up a weapon spec, precision, DW spec, or BF. So if you're just considering yellow dmg, Hemo>SS. When you include the rest, combat builds will be able to easily seperate themselves from hemo.
reply:
but you still have your points from Assassination to pick up the slack, imp SnD, 5% to crit, etc. Try it, you will be pleasently suprised. I did not believe either until I tried it.
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Hemo doesn't stack. It just refreshes itself. For your raid to be getting the 120 dps, it would have to be getting 30 hits every 1.75 seconds. You can't consistently remove all charges without your hemo rogues are holding back by waiting on all the hemo charges to be used up.
Reply:
I know it refreshes, you see it blink on the mob. Prefect example Vael. I use an alcor's sun razor offhand. With SnD + Troll Berzer + Emp Demolisher It has a .4 Attack speed. And my MH is at .9 I alone hit 4 times in 1 second. Factor in 7 Warriors and 5 Rogues. all you see is hemo start to flash on the mob. We actually convinced casters at one point it was a glich. joke lasted 2 weeks that we bugged vael =D
Phaltruism:
Explanations are fine. But yes the difference is minimal, I wouldn't bother ranking them, Just say these are the accepted Builds and that is it. and if someone is adamant about keeping their build, Ask him to prove it on a damage meter. and if he stays in the top 5 for for most of the raid he can keep it. All you need is a damage meter and that is it. People do not like to be told they HAVE to change their spec, but if you give them a choice to prove themselves, and they fail, they will gladly change since you were open minded and gave them a shot.
Quote:
I know that hemo didn't get normalized. But Hemo doesn't pick up a weapon spec, precision, DW spec, or BF. So if you're just considering yellow dmg, Hemo>SS. When you include the rest, combat builds will be able to easily seperate themselves from hemo.
reply:
but you still have your points from Assassination to pick up the slack, imp SnD, 5% to crit, etc. Try it, you will be pleasently suprised. I did not believe either until I tried it.
quote:
Hemo doesn't stack. It just refreshes itself. For your raid to be getting the 120 dps, it would have to be getting 30 hits every 1.75 seconds. You can't consistently remove all charges without your hemo rogues are holding back by waiting on all the hemo charges to be used up.
Reply:
I know it refreshes, you see it blink on the mob. Prefect example Vael. I use an alcor's sun razor offhand. With SnD + Troll Berzer + Emp Demolisher It has a .4 Attack speed. And my MH is at .9 I alone hit 4 times in 1 second. Factor in 7 Warriors and 5 Rogues. all you see is hemo start to flash on the mob. We actually convinced casters at one point it was a glich. joke lasted 2 weeks that we bugged vael =D
Phaltruism:
Explanations are fine. But yes the difference is minimal, I wouldn't bother ranking them, Just say these are the accepted Builds and that is it. and if someone is adamant about keeping their build, Ask him to prove it on a damage meter. and if he stays in the top 5 for for most of the raid he can keep it. All you need is a damage meter and that is it. People do not like to be told they HAVE to change their spec, but if you give them a choice to prove themselves, and they fail, they will gladly change since you were open minded and gave them a shot.
Quote:
And as far as seal fate goes, where else would you put those points other than posions? Imp. KS? That's terrible. Some mobs are immune, true. But for the ones that aren't or are just resistant, it is the only thing that is going to up your DPS left that you can choose (assuming you have ~+6 to hit and you aren't likely going to get the killing blow).
Seal fate is the most versatile dagger builds in terms of going between pvp and pve. Combat daggers will dominate damage meters, but in pvp, sustained dps isn't as significant as it is in pve. CB/Prep has the most survivability and utility due to talents like elusiveness, prep, and imp sap but in pve, these talents are all useless. Getting twice the CP generation of other builds allows Seal Fate to remain competitive on the dmg meter by using other finishers. In pvp, quicker finishers leads to more burst damage. Many people go with a mix of murder and imp expose armor to help on the pvp side of things.
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Considering that we do have people heavily in PvP, thus justifying SF and PvP dagger builds, are these builds acceptable ? Are there ones I left out?
That's where the problems are coming from. It's easy to go from statements like these and "While this build is reasonable, I would consider this more of a 'fun' build" to "you're not combat daggers, you're not going to top the damage meters, unacceptable."
Edited cause I can't quote.
Edited, Jun 8th 2006 at 6:36pm EST by Isior
Edited, Jun 8th 2006 at 6:37pm EST by Isior
F.I.L.A.
Quote:
but you still have your points from Assassination to pick up the slack, imp SnD, 5% to crit, etc. Try it, you will be pleasently suprised. I did not believe either until I tried it.
Every build has these talents.
Quote:
I know it refreshes, you see it blink on the mob. Prefect example Vael. I use an alcor's sun razor offhand. With SnD + Troll Berzer + Emp Demolisher It has a .4 Attack speed. And my MH is at .9 I alone hit 4 times in 1 second. Factor in 7 Warriors and 5 Rogues. all you see is hemo start to flash on the mob. We actually convinced casters at one point it was a glich. joke lasted 2 weeks that we bugged vael =D
lol. I always thought the hemo flashing was hemo from one rogue being replaced with the others.
Vael isn't a perfect example since there's pretty much unlimited energy/rage. Anyway, I'm not saying it's not possible to remove all charges. I'm saying it's not consistent. You're averaging 3 hits per second with specials. Assuming flurry's up and a 1.5 speed weapon, a warrior is averaging 2, unless warrior cooldowns are affected by Vael. 12 hits from 6 fury warriors plus 15 from rogues, and 1 from your MT = 27. With a couple hunters you can make it. But this is idealistic since you'll need more than one tank, all fury warriors with 1.5 speed weapons, at least 2 rogues are hemo (ie not using fast weapons), no misses/dodges/blocks/parries etc. It's not impossible to make it, but it still won't be consistent.
[
Edited, Jun 8th 2006 at 7:51pm EST by Isior
F.I.L.A.
Heh, well we kill Vael in a minute and a half. And I strongly believe that the 2 hemos really help.
There is no way in hell Hemo or even worse, 21/8/22, is better than or even close to Seal Fate. Hemo's best-case scenario only adds 60 DPS, and that DPS doesn't even scale with crit. Thats nothing compared to the DPS you lose by putting so many points into Subtlety. Most of what Isior said about Hemo is dead on, so I'll leave it at that. As far as sustained damage goes:
Combat Dagger = Combat Fist/Sword = 31/20 Seal Fate > 31/8/12 Seal Fate > Hemo > 21/8/22
Bear in mind that when people say Seal Fate is weaker in PvE, they are almost always referring to 31/8/12. 31/20 is not inferior to the Combat builds. Also, the poison talents (Imp. Instant mainly) are quite good for sustained DPS.
Pretty good guide overall, though. The only other thing I'd adjust are your comments on threat management. You should stress that Vanish is our main form of threat management, and that Feint is your enemy and should be avoided unless its absolutely necessary. Vanish is *not* to be saved for pulling aggro, you Vanish when the tank has built up enough threat that clearing your hate will allow you to go all out for the rest of the fight, usually when the boss is around 70%. The only times you should be Feinting are before this Vanish, and even then I rarely do it more than 4-5 times on any given fight. If you ever find yourself having to Feint mid or late fight, you have miscalculated.
Combat Dagger = Combat Fist/Sword = 31/20 Seal Fate > 31/8/12 Seal Fate > Hemo > 21/8/22
Bear in mind that when people say Seal Fate is weaker in PvE, they are almost always referring to 31/8/12. 31/20 is not inferior to the Combat builds. Also, the poison talents (Imp. Instant mainly) are quite good for sustained DPS.
Pretty good guide overall, though. The only other thing I'd adjust are your comments on threat management. You should stress that Vanish is our main form of threat management, and that Feint is your enemy and should be avoided unless its absolutely necessary. Vanish is *not* to be saved for pulling aggro, you Vanish when the tank has built up enough threat that clearing your hate will allow you to go all out for the rest of the fight, usually when the boss is around 70%. The only times you should be Feinting are before this Vanish, and even then I rarely do it more than 4-5 times on any given fight. If you ever find yourself having to Feint mid or late fight, you have miscalculated.
Exactly the kind of input I needed. I tried to tidy things up a little bit. Should I add 31/20 or 30/21 builds?
Also, I know combat daggers is typically 16/25/10. I know the crit chance with ambush is great, but rarely would I use this at the beginning of a battle just because the tank is going to hold aggro off of it. Would it be better to stick those 10 points and do a similar build as the sword builds' but put points in to dagger spec? Or is ambush used mid battle with a vanish?
Also, I know combat daggers is typically 16/25/10. I know the crit chance with ambush is great, but rarely would I use this at the beginning of a battle just because the tank is going to hold aggro off of it. Would it be better to stick those 10 points and do a similar build as the sword builds' but put points in to dagger spec? Or is ambush used mid battle with a vanish?
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