Do daggers do more damage than swords?
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Do daggers do more damage than swords?Follow
they do bigger damage but not more damage.
at level 60 I always do more DPS than a dagger rogue in instances. However, I switch to a dagger for PvP. you cant use ambush or backstab with anything but a dagger. 1 ambush and 1 backstab can kill some cloth wearers. either way you go, you want the slowest possible weapon in you main hand (for all of the instant attacks) and the fastest possible weapon in your offhand (for poisons).
you have to be carefull with your tallent tree to effictivly use both. fyi
my opinion.
at level 60 I always do more DPS than a dagger rogue in instances. However, I switch to a dagger for PvP. you cant use ambush or backstab with anything but a dagger. 1 ambush and 1 backstab can kill some cloth wearers. either way you go, you want the slowest possible weapon in you main hand (for all of the instant attacks) and the fastest possible weapon in your offhand (for poisons).
you have to be carefull with your tallent tree to effictivly use both. fyi
my opinion.
I stab 4, 5 people every day.(Dwittle)Magtheridon
13 posts
So are daggers better?
Sword vs Dagger
Quote:
at level 60 I always do more DPS than a dagger rogue in instances.
That's gear, skill, and buld dependent mostly. A 30/8/13 should by all means out damage you with equal level equipment.
Dwittle wrote:
they do bigger damage but not more damage.
A 30/8/13 spec'ed dagger rogue, who knows what he's doing and has a good set of crit gear will almost always top out the damage meters.
Shinzero
Shinzero: Level 60 Night Elf Rogue (Eredar)
Gekko: Level 60 Undead Rogue (Emerald Dream)
Shinzero: Level 60 Night Elf Rogue (Eredar)
Gekko: Level 60 Undead Rogue (Emerald Dream)
one thing about dagger in instant, is that you have to wait for the right opportunity to strike, unlike combat rouge which just run up cheap shot and start SS away.. and also even if we dont out DPS a combat rouge, we usualy out damage them overall due to the amount of crits we do.. but like the previous post, u have to be the right talent spec and gear speced... i believe dagger is for mainly pvp since you dont really care about DPS, you just want crits to take out an enemy quickly and effectively.
Edited, Wed Aug 31 13:48:30 2005 by lelokong
Edited, Wed Aug 31 13:48:30 2005 by lelokong
5 posts
There are a few things to consider, really.
Talents will affect a lot of which will do more damage. For example, a rogue with improved backstab, improved ambush, opportunity, and lethality will do a lot more damage with daggers than a rogue who doesen't have these things.
Me, personally, I use daggers. I am level 45, but I can ambush for 1100, critical backstab for 700, although, this may be due to my completely backstab-focused talents and a purple mainhand dagger.
Swords do have a higher damage than daggers, but, then again, the two most damaging abilities we have are only dagger usable, (ambush, backstab)
My talents are-
(correct me if i'm wrong about the names/effects)
---Assassination---
Remorseless 5/5 -- 40% increased crit chance for a rogue attack ability for the next 20 seconds after killing a monster that gives experience
Malice -- 5/5 5% increased critical strike chance
Lethality -- 5/5 30% increased critical strike damage bonus for gouge, sinister strike, backstab, amongst other things
---Combat---
Improved Sinister Strike -- 2/2 Reduces energy cost of Sinister Strike by 5 energy.
Improved Gouge -- 3/3 Increases duration of Gouge by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Backstab -- Increases critical strike chance of Backstab by 30% (equalling a total of 50% adding natural crit chance and malice, 90% with remorseless, plus 20% increase from opportunity and 30% dmg crit increase from lethality)
---Subdlety--- (Can't spell right lol)
Master of Deception 5/5 -- decreases chance that something can see you while you are in stealth (doesent really affect dmg)
Opportunity 5/5 -- Increases your damage when striking from behind with Ambush, Backstab, and other stuff.
Improved Ambush -- 3/3 Increases your critical strike chance with Ambush by 45% (plus 20% from natural crit and malice, and 40% from remorseless equals over 100% chance to crit with ambush, plus the 20% damage increase, thats a whole lotta damage, always criting if you can do it fast enough)
The only bad thing to soloing as a dagger rogue is you have a lot more work to do than a sword rogue, but you will do quite a bit more damage. You gotta stealth, get behind the enemy, ambush them before they see you, gouge, run around when its still gouged, and backstab, or, use kidney shot to stun them and run around and backstab them while they are stunned. With 5 combo points, it is possible to pull off two backstabs within 5 seconds of stun. (or you can choose to eviscerate with your combo points). In duels against casters my level, i've killed them in under 10 seconds. One bad thing to choosing this way to solo is that gouge and backstab both use 60 energy, so to do gouge/backstab, you have to be at full energy to pull it off quickly. You can wait behind them for your energy to refill if you didnt start with 100. Kidney shot-backstab only takes 80 energy total, so it can be done with about 3/4 energy. Using these tricks, I am able to solo elites my level, (who don't cast), and can pull off 3-4 backstabs a fight, which isnt bad dps. Although, keeping all of this in mind, it can get really tricky sometimes. Most rogues prefer to,
Equip a sword in mainhand, Cheap Shot, and sinister strike until they stack 5 points, and then eviscerate, and repeat the process. This is a lot easier, but, 1, you get hit more, and 2, it does less damage.
All that said, the real question is if you want to sacrifice a lot more work to do more damage, or you want to take it easy, and do a bit less damage.
Talents will affect a lot of which will do more damage. For example, a rogue with improved backstab, improved ambush, opportunity, and lethality will do a lot more damage with daggers than a rogue who doesen't have these things.
Me, personally, I use daggers. I am level 45, but I can ambush for 1100, critical backstab for 700, although, this may be due to my completely backstab-focused talents and a purple mainhand dagger.
Swords do have a higher damage than daggers, but, then again, the two most damaging abilities we have are only dagger usable, (ambush, backstab)
My talents are-
(correct me if i'm wrong about the names/effects)
---Assassination---
Remorseless 5/5 -- 40% increased crit chance for a rogue attack ability for the next 20 seconds after killing a monster that gives experience
Malice -- 5/5 5% increased critical strike chance
Lethality -- 5/5 30% increased critical strike damage bonus for gouge, sinister strike, backstab, amongst other things
---Combat---
Improved Sinister Strike -- 2/2 Reduces energy cost of Sinister Strike by 5 energy.
Improved Gouge -- 3/3 Increases duration of Gouge by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Backstab -- Increases critical strike chance of Backstab by 30% (equalling a total of 50% adding natural crit chance and malice, 90% with remorseless, plus 20% increase from opportunity and 30% dmg crit increase from lethality)
---Subdlety--- (Can't spell right lol)
Master of Deception 5/5 -- decreases chance that something can see you while you are in stealth (doesent really affect dmg)
Opportunity 5/5 -- Increases your damage when striking from behind with Ambush, Backstab, and other stuff.
Improved Ambush -- 3/3 Increases your critical strike chance with Ambush by 45% (plus 20% from natural crit and malice, and 40% from remorseless equals over 100% chance to crit with ambush, plus the 20% damage increase, thats a whole lotta damage, always criting if you can do it fast enough)
The only bad thing to soloing as a dagger rogue is you have a lot more work to do than a sword rogue, but you will do quite a bit more damage. You gotta stealth, get behind the enemy, ambush them before they see you, gouge, run around when its still gouged, and backstab, or, use kidney shot to stun them and run around and backstab them while they are stunned. With 5 combo points, it is possible to pull off two backstabs within 5 seconds of stun. (or you can choose to eviscerate with your combo points). In duels against casters my level, i've killed them in under 10 seconds. One bad thing to choosing this way to solo is that gouge and backstab both use 60 energy, so to do gouge/backstab, you have to be at full energy to pull it off quickly. You can wait behind them for your energy to refill if you didnt start with 100. Kidney shot-backstab only takes 80 energy total, so it can be done with about 3/4 energy. Using these tricks, I am able to solo elites my level, (who don't cast), and can pull off 3-4 backstabs a fight, which isnt bad dps. Although, keeping all of this in mind, it can get really tricky sometimes. Most rogues prefer to,
Equip a sword in mainhand, Cheap Shot, and sinister strike until they stack 5 points, and then eviscerate, and repeat the process. This is a lot easier, but, 1, you get hit more, and 2, it does less damage.
All that said, the real question is if you want to sacrifice a lot more work to do more damage, or you want to take it easy, and do a bit less damage.
'Tis but a scratch!
A dagger will do more damage IF you are using ambush, backstab etc. Remember ambush even at low lvls will do 250% dmg + 100 normal damage. At lvl 24 i crit at 400. Tell me what 1h sword will do that at my lvl. None.
5 posts
Nicely put, Uridicy =)
'Tis but a scratch!
37 posts
It's all a matter of preference, In my opinion. I'm not going to speak out of turn and voice on topics I have little knowledge of. I will just give you my little experience. When I first started playing, I was dead set to be a dagger rogue. SS was crappy with a dagger and so was riposte. But when I switch to swords, I became spoiled. I do as much (sometimes more?) with a sword on SS than I do with a backstab, and when It crits, I do as much as a normal ambush. With riposte it's the same. During a fight, I usually get 2-3 ripostes on average, and conveniently inbetween SS's, while I'm regening energy for another, so I'm consistantly doing SS's so to speak. Even if a sword SS were slightly lower damage than a backstab, I get 3 SS's to every 2 backstabs, and if that were not enough, my overall dps is higher with a sword. I also have more leeway with energy to use other abillities like slice n dice, or what have you. Also, grinding, I'm not slowed but having to sneak up to the target, get behind it, or gouging so that I can set up another backstab. Throw in offhand and sword spec, and eventually adreniline rush, where you can drop an SS every second, and do 15 consecutive SS's in a row if done right, and you are dishing out a **** ton of damage, hypothetically.
On the other side of the token, I am comparing this to an average, untallented backstab/ambush. You could have better results with that build and I would never know.
Another thing is, it all depends on your current level and ranks in skills. Up until now, my SS outdamaged my evis, but I just leveled, and now my 5 pnt evis, does slightly more (typically, even though an evis looks like alot of damage, I've noticed enough of it typically got soaked up to where it did about the same as my SS).
One last thing to look at is high end weapons. While the most damage a weapon can do that I've seen is 207, unmodified, the damage on other weapons like daggers may be like 137, but if you look at the dps, you are doing more with it than the one mentioned. But again you have to take into consideration things like damage being blocked by shields, in which case, in a perfect world a dagger would do more damage due to it's dps, but in reallity most of it will be soaked up while the higher damaging weapons will get through.
In the end, It comes down to quite a few variables, many you won't notice until you just try it out. Overall I would say that are pretty even, so then it just comes down to what style of play you prefer. Again, I'm only lvl 33 atm, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I hope this helps.
And as far as the 400 dmg ambush, big numbers look pretty and technically you do more damage in that instant, But one SS from me and one second of my normal dps, and I've done just as much damage, in probably quite less time and have more energy left over. Also, consider garrote and rupture, not to be scoffed at if you do the math, and you can use both with a sword. A talented rupture will outdamage a cold blood evis over time. Not to mention, while the damage your weapons state they do may look nice, you will miss, be dodged, blocked, parried, while the damage from those dots gets by every time for full amount.
Edited, Sat Aug 27 19:19:31 2005 by Stabbystab
On the other side of the token, I am comparing this to an average, untallented backstab/ambush. You could have better results with that build and I would never know.
Another thing is, it all depends on your current level and ranks in skills. Up until now, my SS outdamaged my evis, but I just leveled, and now my 5 pnt evis, does slightly more (typically, even though an evis looks like alot of damage, I've noticed enough of it typically got soaked up to where it did about the same as my SS).
One last thing to look at is high end weapons. While the most damage a weapon can do that I've seen is 207, unmodified, the damage on other weapons like daggers may be like 137, but if you look at the dps, you are doing more with it than the one mentioned. But again you have to take into consideration things like damage being blocked by shields, in which case, in a perfect world a dagger would do more damage due to it's dps, but in reallity most of it will be soaked up while the higher damaging weapons will get through.
In the end, It comes down to quite a few variables, many you won't notice until you just try it out. Overall I would say that are pretty even, so then it just comes down to what style of play you prefer. Again, I'm only lvl 33 atm, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I hope this helps.
And as far as the 400 dmg ambush, big numbers look pretty and technically you do more damage in that instant, But one SS from me and one second of my normal dps, and I've done just as much damage, in probably quite less time and have more energy left over. Also, consider garrote and rupture, not to be scoffed at if you do the math, and you can use both with a sword. A talented rupture will outdamage a cold blood evis over time. Not to mention, while the damage your weapons state they do may look nice, you will miss, be dodged, blocked, parried, while the damage from those dots gets by every time for full amount.
Edited, Sat Aug 27 19:19:31 2005 by Stabbystab
2 posts
You need to level up >_>
BS at 60 will crit up to 1300 in pvp
And SS will crit up to 700 in pvp
not only that, but BS has 50% chance to crit compared to SS 20% chance.
When you do the damage per energy figures, you see which wins.
In MC tho, I think a Combat based sword rogue does the highest dps sinc ethey beenfit from slice and dice more and attack power makes swords closer and closer to backstab damage, whcih you get a lot of in instances.
Daggers - pvp
Swords - pve
IMO ofc
BS at 60 will crit up to 1300 in pvp
And SS will crit up to 700 in pvp
not only that, but BS has 50% chance to crit compared to SS 20% chance.
When you do the damage per energy figures, you see which wins.
In MC tho, I think a Combat based sword rogue does the highest dps sinc ethey beenfit from slice and dice more and attack power makes swords closer and closer to backstab damage, whcih you get a lot of in instances.
Daggers - pvp
Swords - pve
IMO ofc
37 posts
An SS can crit for as much as 900. You do the math, and that's not including ripostes or regular DPS. And like I said, big numbers look pretty, but the name of the game is DPS. It requires more time and energy to do a backstab than it does an SS. I'm not saying at all there is anything wrong with a backstab build, but don't be distracted by big numbers. You have to weigh everything.
1 post
Okies,
My guild just got to MC and is at Sulfuron... (new spawn next scheduled raid...prolly kill two more new bosses fer us.) I agree that sword/combat builds do more DPS on raids in MC, but I think that is based off of WoW dev's not realizing the effects of the world rules/gear they were making. I have very little experience in BWL, but I would like to know what goes on in the new, revised, really tough Blackwing Lair.
IMHO, play dagger or sword in the long run both will bite you in the ***. Just don't pick a stupid build for whatever you choose to go with. A SS can crit for way more than 900, and a BS can crit for a HELL of a lot more than 1300. The sword rogue and the BS rogue are basically two different classes with different strengths and weaknesses.
BTW, I like sword rogues until you get a Gutgore or better, unless you are heavily PvP based.
Junckey
My guild just got to MC and is at Sulfuron... (new spawn next scheduled raid...prolly kill two more new bosses fer us.) I agree that sword/combat builds do more DPS on raids in MC, but I think that is based off of WoW dev's not realizing the effects of the world rules/gear they were making. I have very little experience in BWL, but I would like to know what goes on in the new, revised, really tough Blackwing Lair.
IMHO, play dagger or sword in the long run both will bite you in the ***. Just don't pick a stupid build for whatever you choose to go with. A SS can crit for way more than 900, and a BS can crit for a HELL of a lot more than 1300. The sword rogue and the BS rogue are basically two different classes with different strengths and weaknesses.
BTW, I like sword rogues until you get a Gutgore or better, unless you are heavily PvP based.
Junckey
On my rogue I'm still a fairly low level so I do not have experience over level 22, also, I am a dagger rogue. The few times I have grouped up, once I would pull a mob back to the rest of the group I just sat behind the mob and continuously backstabbed then feinted (reduces threat a small amount) and when I would pull hate I just stopped backstabbing until either the tank pulls the hate back or the mob dies.
Keeping that in mind, I'm wondering if a strategy similar to that would work in groups at higher levels, if that does in fact work then wouldn't a dagger rogue be able to outdamage a sword or mace rogue in group pve?
Keeping that in mind, I'm wondering if a strategy similar to that would work in groups at higher levels, if that does in fact work then wouldn't a dagger rogue be able to outdamage a sword or mace rogue in group pve?
Scholar
44 posts
60 Human rogue
37 posts
To me it seems like both are pretty well balanced. If it weren't, there wouldn't even be this thread, and blizzard would be on top of the issue, because then every rogue would go only one way and it would be one-sided.
Daggers do more damage in one hit using skills such as BS/Ambush. They have a higher crit rate if spec'd correctly. They require more energy for those skills, and solo, alot more finesse and time. DPS-wise, they have the potential to do more melee damage, with the more chances to miss and more chances to hit. The trade is, since the melee damage is in smaller amounts, less will get through due to armor, defense and things such as shield block.
Swords do slightly less using the skills SS and Riposte. Those skills, require less energy and less finesse. The crit rate is lower, but you have more chances to crit as you get more SS's and Riposte's in, in the same amount of time as a few backstabs, Not to mention our normal melee DPS will crit for amounts that will sometimes be on par with a regular BS. The crit damage will be higher due to the slow weapon speed and the higher maximum damage of a sword or mace. In a perfect world where the DPS listed on a weapon were not affected by other variables in combat, a dagger would out-damage a sword at the high end of the game. But against high armor or shield block, the sword will hit slower but more of it's damage will get through (this is assuming you are not using a sword with a speed of a dagger).
So as I see it, daggers will do more damage in bursts, while swords do less damage in bursts but are more consistant throughout the battle.
Edited, Mon Aug 29 14:25:18 2005 by Stabbystab
Daggers do more damage in one hit using skills such as BS/Ambush. They have a higher crit rate if spec'd correctly. They require more energy for those skills, and solo, alot more finesse and time. DPS-wise, they have the potential to do more melee damage, with the more chances to miss and more chances to hit. The trade is, since the melee damage is in smaller amounts, less will get through due to armor, defense and things such as shield block.
Swords do slightly less using the skills SS and Riposte. Those skills, require less energy and less finesse. The crit rate is lower, but you have more chances to crit as you get more SS's and Riposte's in, in the same amount of time as a few backstabs, Not to mention our normal melee DPS will crit for amounts that will sometimes be on par with a regular BS. The crit damage will be higher due to the slow weapon speed and the higher maximum damage of a sword or mace. In a perfect world where the DPS listed on a weapon were not affected by other variables in combat, a dagger would out-damage a sword at the high end of the game. But against high armor or shield block, the sword will hit slower but more of it's damage will get through (this is assuming you are not using a sword with a speed of a dagger).
So as I see it, daggers will do more damage in bursts, while swords do less damage in bursts but are more consistant throughout the battle.
Edited, Mon Aug 29 14:25:18 2005 by Stabbystab
OK, since several of my sword wielding friends have now respec'd to a similar build to mine, I think I can make more observations than I have previously regarding this topic. I hope I can convey this correctly.
For singe hit damage, the sword build does more average per hit damage. For a given build, lets say 132 average vs 115 for the dagger rogue. BUT, since a dagger rogue can hit about 20% more hits over time (depending on weapon speeds, etc.), it works out a bit different than you'd expect when you work the numbers. The longer you have to kill a mob, the higher the difference in total hits becomes.
Before I go into the basic math I've observed, here are the differences I've seen.
In a 1 on 1 or short battle, the Sword rogue seems to do more damage. That leads me to think that in general it may be better in a PvP mode. That is, since you can do more per-hit damage and since most PvP fights seem to depend a lot on hit and run techniques, this may be a bit better. Also, while you can sometimes use BS and Ambush in PvP, from what I've heard it takes a lot more skill, so it's easier in general to just use SS for your major damage.
In instance battles. If you're Zerging, the Sword rogue will do more damage, but when you are killing bosses or other mobs that will allow/require you to use things like Blade Flurry, Adrenaline rush, etc. THEN the Dagger rogue will usually outdamage the sword rogues. (given similar gear, and level-equivalent weapons.)
Now to get into a bit more of the last note comment. If a Dagger rogue is using a Perditions blade and the Sword Rogue is using a Shadow Blade, you can't really make the comparisons very well, since the dagger is really in a much higher class than the sword. Similarly, I've got 2 SC pieces and most of the Sword Rogues I have played with have either full SC set or better and their Swords are a little better than the class of my daggers, so it's hard to really compare 1 to 1, though the basic math still shows through.
At any rate, you can still see what happens with a bit of a simplified math. I've rounded the numbers for ease of example, but they are fairly close to reality.
Make SD (sword damage) average 125
Make DD (Dagger damage) average 100
With 4000 hits for the Sword user this would make both the sword user and the dagger user with 5000 hits and they have the same damage over the same time frame. Now this is not necessarily going to show you exactly what happens but I believe it shows the trend. Let's say a mob dies quickly and you both are only able to get 2 hits in. Sword wielder 250 damage, dagger wielder 200 damage. Seems to favor the Sword wielder. But when you get into the situation where the mobs don't die so fast and over a long period of time, like a higher end raid, then you can see that the damage by the dagger user will equal out to the sword wielder. That is 4000 X 125 = 500k and 5000 X 100 = 500K.
Putting numbers that we started with, which were actual damage averages from a 3-4 hour raid; you can see where the small changes in damage can make a big difference in overall damage.
Sword Rogue 132 avd dmg X 4000 hits = 528,000 total dmg
Dagger Rogue 115 avd dmg X 5000 hits = 575,000 total dmg
In actual practice, however, I've found that while it's hard to compare apples to oranges; the Dagger wielders tend to pull ahead of the Sword wielders almost entirely based on the extra number of hits that they land. So if you are in a situation where the fights last long enough Daggers tend to do more damage.
Things even out a bit when you start out killing lower level mobs and then start killing harder ones. This is when you really see how the damage adds up differently for the two different builds. At first the Sword Rogues will be at the top of the Damage list, then as you kill more and more of the harder mobs, the Dagger Rogues will slowly drift to the top.
Overall, I think both builds end up about the same, given similar equipment, it really is situational as to which ends up better for actual overall damage capacity.
For singe hit damage, the sword build does more average per hit damage. For a given build, lets say 132 average vs 115 for the dagger rogue. BUT, since a dagger rogue can hit about 20% more hits over time (depending on weapon speeds, etc.), it works out a bit different than you'd expect when you work the numbers. The longer you have to kill a mob, the higher the difference in total hits becomes.
Before I go into the basic math I've observed, here are the differences I've seen.
In a 1 on 1 or short battle, the Sword rogue seems to do more damage. That leads me to think that in general it may be better in a PvP mode. That is, since you can do more per-hit damage and since most PvP fights seem to depend a lot on hit and run techniques, this may be a bit better. Also, while you can sometimes use BS and Ambush in PvP, from what I've heard it takes a lot more skill, so it's easier in general to just use SS for your major damage.
In instance battles. If you're Zerging, the Sword rogue will do more damage, but when you are killing bosses or other mobs that will allow/require you to use things like Blade Flurry, Adrenaline rush, etc. THEN the Dagger rogue will usually outdamage the sword rogues. (given similar gear, and level-equivalent weapons.)
Now to get into a bit more of the last note comment. If a Dagger rogue is using a Perditions blade and the Sword Rogue is using a Shadow Blade, you can't really make the comparisons very well, since the dagger is really in a much higher class than the sword. Similarly, I've got 2 SC pieces and most of the Sword Rogues I have played with have either full SC set or better and their Swords are a little better than the class of my daggers, so it's hard to really compare 1 to 1, though the basic math still shows through.
At any rate, you can still see what happens with a bit of a simplified math. I've rounded the numbers for ease of example, but they are fairly close to reality.
Make SD (sword damage) average 125
Make DD (Dagger damage) average 100
With 4000 hits for the Sword user this would make both the sword user and the dagger user with 5000 hits and they have the same damage over the same time frame. Now this is not necessarily going to show you exactly what happens but I believe it shows the trend. Let's say a mob dies quickly and you both are only able to get 2 hits in. Sword wielder 250 damage, dagger wielder 200 damage. Seems to favor the Sword wielder. But when you get into the situation where the mobs don't die so fast and over a long period of time, like a higher end raid, then you can see that the damage by the dagger user will equal out to the sword wielder. That is 4000 X 125 = 500k and 5000 X 100 = 500K.
Putting numbers that we started with, which were actual damage averages from a 3-4 hour raid; you can see where the small changes in damage can make a big difference in overall damage.
Sword Rogue 132 avd dmg X 4000 hits = 528,000 total dmg
Dagger Rogue 115 avd dmg X 5000 hits = 575,000 total dmg
In actual practice, however, I've found that while it's hard to compare apples to oranges; the Dagger wielders tend to pull ahead of the Sword wielders almost entirely based on the extra number of hits that they land. So if you are in a situation where the fights last long enough Daggers tend to do more damage.
Things even out a bit when you start out killing lower level mobs and then start killing harder ones. This is when you really see how the damage adds up differently for the two different builds. At first the Sword Rogues will be at the top of the Damage list, then as you kill more and more of the harder mobs, the Dagger Rogues will slowly drift to the top.
Overall, I think both builds end up about the same, given similar equipment, it really is situational as to which ends up better for actual overall damage capacity.
60-Human-Rogue:
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, hate me because I'm a backstabbing *****
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, hate me because I'm a backstabbing *****
37 posts
I don't want to pick that last post apart. I can tell you spent alot of time explaining it. All I will say is that I don't agree with some of your figures and that you don't account for many variables.
To make this is simple as I possibly can, there are only two questions you need to ask yourself:
1.) What's your style of play? If you unraval strategy to it's core, there are only two types. Control, and Beat-down. A dagger rogue is control, a sword rogue is beatdown. While dagger rogues produce high damaging crits, they are in bursts, carefully timed throughout thier routine; Carefully and precisely managing time, rationing energy, and delivering a well-placed blow when the oppurtunity presents itself. A sword rogue is balls to the walls, trying to deliver as much DPS as they can through whatever means in the short amount of time they have. Thier numbers may not always be as high, but they are steadilly firing away.
2. In a group situation, where say, you don't have to worry about setting up a backstab, the other question is, backstab with a dagger, or sinister strike with a sword? That is the primary question. I won't indulge ambush. Not to say I'm scoffing at it, it does alot of damage. But again, a dagger rogue is about control, and I doubt one will give up a cheapshot for an ambush, unless there is a good chance of a raw kill from an ambush followed by one or two hits; In any event, it is useless after the pre-emptive strike.
You have to rationalize, given the same amount of energy, we'll say 120, whether you will do more damage with a dagger and 2 backstabs, or a sword and 3 sinister strikes. This is going to be influenced by your weapon availabillity and your talent spec. That's just all thier is to it. There is no cheator build that is totally going to blow the other out of the water. Regular melee DPS is arbitrary, since you can find swords that are equally as fast as daggers with the same DPS.
That said, I'd say the real question is, what talent build is going to give you the most DPS for your buck (talent points), and yet let you be frivolous with utillity and versatillity.
To make this is simple as I possibly can, there are only two questions you need to ask yourself:
1.) What's your style of play? If you unraval strategy to it's core, there are only two types. Control, and Beat-down. A dagger rogue is control, a sword rogue is beatdown. While dagger rogues produce high damaging crits, they are in bursts, carefully timed throughout thier routine; Carefully and precisely managing time, rationing energy, and delivering a well-placed blow when the oppurtunity presents itself. A sword rogue is balls to the walls, trying to deliver as much DPS as they can through whatever means in the short amount of time they have. Thier numbers may not always be as high, but they are steadilly firing away.
2. In a group situation, where say, you don't have to worry about setting up a backstab, the other question is, backstab with a dagger, or sinister strike with a sword? That is the primary question. I won't indulge ambush. Not to say I'm scoffing at it, it does alot of damage. But again, a dagger rogue is about control, and I doubt one will give up a cheapshot for an ambush, unless there is a good chance of a raw kill from an ambush followed by one or two hits; In any event, it is useless after the pre-emptive strike.
You have to rationalize, given the same amount of energy, we'll say 120, whether you will do more damage with a dagger and 2 backstabs, or a sword and 3 sinister strikes. This is going to be influenced by your weapon availabillity and your talent spec. That's just all thier is to it. There is no cheator build that is totally going to blow the other out of the water. Regular melee DPS is arbitrary, since you can find swords that are equally as fast as daggers with the same DPS.
That said, I'd say the real question is, what talent build is going to give you the most DPS for your buck (talent points), and yet let you be frivolous with utillity and versatillity.
Scholar
34 posts
I read constantly that dagger builds are TEH RULE for PvP. BUT! In my experience (i'm 53) i've killed many, many dagger rogues in Warsong Gulch because i'm ***/combat. i've been ambushed-gouges-backstabbed more times than i care to count. Popped evasion, turned around and wailed on the rogue with SS and riposte. either kidney shot em or cold blood evis to finish the job. 1 on 1 versus dagger rogues, the combat talents shine. And it's not like i do crappy damage: i can kill a rogue that's drained his energy trying to finish me off quick by whoopin him while he waits for enuff energy to come back to gouge me again. If i don't, no problem, cause he can't gouge me again anyway. evasion/riposte/kidneyshot will all take care of that. Just be aware that Daggers are not the be all and end all of PvP. And PvE? forget about it. go sword or mace mainhand. It's just faster.
Freki - Rogue of the Mace - Silverhand
2 posts
daggers + backstab = pwn
but of course it all depends on the particular weapon. but as undead rogue i tend to favor the dags.
but of course it all depends on the particular weapon. but as undead rogue i tend to favor the dags.
pwn or be pwned...words to live by. and u cant hurry good pizza...seriously.
have any of you heard of having a slow sword or mace in main hand and a dagger in off hand and using a macro to swap main with off for BS and Ambush?
i find a prep coldblood build works the best by far for huge damage output
this build covers everything for all situations and i find i dont lose to anything regularly bar warriors who know how to play
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Assassination Talents (21 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Remorseless Attacks - 1/5 point
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 8% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 seconds.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Combat Talents (8 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Subtlety Talents (22 points)
Camouflage - 3/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 9%.
Master of Deception - 2/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 1)
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Gives you a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Edited, Wed Sep 7 23:32:16 2005 by mrtimby
i find a prep coldblood build works the best by far for huge damage output
this build covers everything for all situations and i find i dont lose to anything regularly bar warriors who know how to play
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Assassination Talents (21 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Remorseless Attacks - 1/5 point
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 8% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 seconds.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Combat Talents (8 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Subtlety Talents (22 points)
Camouflage - 3/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 9%.
Master of Deception - 2/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 1)
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Gives you a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Edited, Wed Sep 7 23:32:16 2005 by mrtimby
Courage is not the absense of fear but to over come it
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