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I don't post on here much, but I do enjoy reading the posts in the morning while having a coffee; and I find that this site is quite often more easy to understand than sites like elitist jerks when discussing class mechanics, etc.., so that's been helpful. Anywany, I've read quite a few posts on the new LFD system and wanted to add a few thoughts of my own.
I have 3 80s and one 68 character. My level 80s are all 2600+ gear score on wow heroes, which is more than enough for heroics, and I fill all three roles in groups because I have a tank (pally), dps (arcane mage), and healer (discipline priest) to play. The difference that LFD has made has been huge. I mean, before, my healer and tank could find a group pretty easy, and that has not changed, but how the group works together has changed dramatically. The big thing that I can see is that people are more likely to drop group than ever before, and that annoys the hell out of me. And it's not just because of a wipe. For example, Occulus. You teleport into there in a group, and almost immediately one or two drop right away. I am almost to the point where I think I'll LFD to a specific one just to avoid that, but then again, no frost emblems... :( And another thing. I have seen people treat each other in ways that I never saw within realm. Personally, with a good healer, I could pretty much solo H UK for example (my tank), so I don't really care if someone is doing 1000 dps, other than it will make things go slower, and I am pretty confident I'll forget what recount was within 3 minutes of logging out anyway. For a raid, ya, I can see getting upset about carrying someone, but come on, these heroics are so easy now, is it really worth it? Then there's the dude that gear inspects and PUBLICLY criticizes another player for what he sees. I mean, what is it? A self esteem problem? I don't get the point of trying to embarrass someone; if you want to help them, whisper it. Every time this happens, I try to convince myself that it must have been a kid that did it. Pointless.
So, three prespectives on pugs. From a DPS, in my battlegroup, it is on average 20 minutes to find a group. Actually, in my opinion, this is better than before. I can do other stuff while it is searching, and usually the timing is pretty good. So, I find a group, we get rolling, and it's pretty much the same. If you have a good tank, you can aoe on multiples, and then on singles, same spell rotation. Same old, same old, rinse and repeat. But hey, that's more class than LFD, so another discussion, but here's the thing that annoys me to no end as DPS: people flashing recount every 5 minutes. In COS, first boss, there are times when I am chained nearly the whole damned fight! What a joke. Other than that though, playing DPS isn't too bad. Then there's tanking. Problem I've found with Tanking is that one bright star in groups (and yeah only sometimes, but still) that is yelling "go, go, go" or something to that effect. Or the one that's telling you how to tank. Seriously, if you want to control the pace or strategy of a run, start a character and gear up to tank it yourself. But then again, maybe there's a reason for that. And why is it that so many DPS don't know how to position themselves for fights? H UK second boss: they stay back and get charged instead of stacking on me. H UP gauntlet: they stop running and don't stay with me. Yet if there is a wipe, the first person they look at is the tank. And people wonder why there is a shortage of tanks. Duh. Finally, there's healing. I would honestly rather run with a moderately geared group doing 2k dps then the ones doing 4-5k dps. I don't know how many times I have been looting a corpse only to be shocked to find that the tank is at half health, why? because he has already ran up and started attacking the next group! It's like the tank is in this race for something; maybe it's to stop the bright star guy yelling "go, go, go", I'm not sure, but I'll tell you, as a healer, I find you have to be more on the ball between fights than during them anymore.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'll sum it up like this. I was of the belief that running with friends was the way to go before, and I still feel that way. The teamwork part of the game has been pretty much destroyed in the last expansion and the use of add ons that people don't understand just adds to the confusion. Still a great game if you play with good people, just make sure you have a good friends list.
I had a group today on my newly 80 disc priest, the other four were all guildmates from another realm. It was HoL and the only deaths was the warrior when the tank decided to pull those Titanium Vanguard patrols and a pack of Runeshapers. No way I could heal through that with 2 poison spears and 2 sleeps and 2 whirlwinds flying around. I ressed the warrior, buffed him and healed him then sat down to drink and noticed the tank already pulling the next mob with me on 2k mana. The warrior died again.
The rogue said "Silly warrior, run out of whirlwind." I said "Stupid rogue, interrupt the whirlwind and youre the hero that saved his mates life." We were just joking around as the rogue then replied "I cant interrupt." I said "yeah you can, use counterspell." At this point I was kicked from the group
I had no idea why, so I created a character on their realm just to ask why. Apparently it was for calling the rogue stupid... Apparently the tank was extra sensitive, thought I was insulting his guildy and called the vote and his sheep like guildmates all just voted yes.
On a same realm group this would never have happened, they would have said something and the rogue would have told the tank to chillax as I was clearly joking around.
The rogue said "Silly warrior, run out of whirlwind." I said "Stupid rogue, interrupt the whirlwind and youre the hero that saved his mates life." We were just joking around as the rogue then replied "I cant interrupt." I said "yeah you can, use counterspell." At this point I was kicked from the group
I had no idea why, so I created a character on their realm just to ask why. Apparently it was for calling the rogue stupid... Apparently the tank was extra sensitive, thought I was insulting his guildy and called the vote and his sheep like guildmates all just voted yes.
On a same realm group this would never have happened, they would have said something and the rogue would have told the tank to chillax as I was clearly joking around.
They'll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky... They'll do it in that order.
You really though this through. I'm not sure what you thought, but it's clear you spent some time at it 
I liked building a reliable list of friends to run heroics with in BC, but the heroics also were hard then. If 5 mans require more effort, then LFD won't be as widely used. I imagine in the early stages of cata most people will run with other people they know, and then as people get more geared and experienced it will go back up.
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Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'll sum it up like this. I was of the belief that running with friends was the way to go before, and I still feel that way. The teamwork part of the game has been pretty much destroyed in the last expansion and the use of add ons that people don't understand just adds to the confusion. Still a great game if you play with good people, just make sure you have a good friends list.
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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I'm still torn about the new system after all this time. It certainly has it's benefits. Its easier to get into the instances now. I like how it has people doing older out-of-the-way content like Dire Maul; and I'm hopeful this will mean fewer people hitting the level cap without ever being in an instance.
There's certainly the downside. The cross-sever groups certainly can be caustic at times. Faster instances do mean people drop group faster. Boy this happened a lot less often when you actually had to run to the instance. Once you finally traveled all the way to Mara you were going to give it a go at least...
If I look back over my time on WoW many of the people I've met were through instances. We'd have a good run, look each other up again, and so on. Most of the guilds my characters have joined over the years were met through instances runs. This was how I built my friends list early on, and later how we added good members to our guild. We still add PuGs who have joined us for raids from time to time, but raiding occurs with less frequency than 5-mans. I don't know how I'd do it if I had to start from scratch these days. Seems like finding your way into a decent guild would be a lot harder. Then again, with LFD, maybe there's less of a reason for guilds these days; certainly before raiding at least. *shrugs*
There's certainly the downside. The cross-sever groups certainly can be caustic at times. Faster instances do mean people drop group faster. Boy this happened a lot less often when you actually had to run to the instance. Once you finally traveled all the way to Mara you were going to give it a go at least...
Xcalibore wrote:
Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'll sum it up like this. I was of the belief that running with friends was the way to go before, and I still feel that way. The teamwork part of the game has been pretty much destroyed in the last expansion and the use of add ons that people don't understand just adds to the confusion. Still a great game if you play with good people, just make sure you have a good friends list.
If I look back over my time on WoW many of the people I've met were through instances. We'd have a good run, look each other up again, and so on. Most of the guilds my characters have joined over the years were met through instances runs. This was how I built my friends list early on, and later how we added good members to our guild. We still add PuGs who have joined us for raids from time to time, but raiding occurs with less frequency than 5-mans. I don't know how I'd do it if I had to start from scratch these days. Seems like finding your way into a decent guild would be a lot harder. Then again, with LFD, maybe there's less of a reason for guilds these days; certainly before raiding at least. *shrugs*
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
For the most part i cannot express the joy of this new system. Leveling characters is bliss compared to what it was.
I have noticed people like to blame everyone, but them selves, for instance i am now leveling another priest. I have it dual spec'd shadow/disc as i also do pvp while questing, when i am not hitting up a dungeon, tanks will pull 3 groups at once and die and go right on blaming the healer or my spec, or dps will bash each other for not doing "leet" damage. I don't know i finish more then i don't dungeon wise.
That is the only real downside as the OP mentioned, there is less camaraderie.
I have noticed people like to blame everyone, but them selves, for instance i am now leveling another priest. I have it dual spec'd shadow/disc as i also do pvp while questing, when i am not hitting up a dungeon, tanks will pull 3 groups at once and die and go right on blaming the healer or my spec, or dps will bash each other for not doing "leet" damage. I don't know i finish more then i don't dungeon wise.
That is the only real downside as the OP mentioned, there is less camaraderie.
If you have a group that works well together, is moving at a reasonable pace and having FUN, why spoil it with irrelevant and often inaccurate criticisms? Recount and gearscore might be nice apps for occasionally checking personal progress, but they are overused/misused in groups. Whether or not the numbers add up to prove an elemental shaman using a wrath totem gives greater overall group dps than using a magma, I rather liked the idea that group and solo play called for different approaches. It's all about topping the list since everyone's started using and quoting recount, disregarding what I understand are inaccuracies across servers as well as the forgotten benefits some classes bring to a group besides dps and the variety of situations that make it very relative.
There should be a Leeeeroy Tank thread... and there probably is. I've had my share of those in LFD. Just the other day luck gave me two in a row: First in H AN where he warned the group, "mana up cuz I'm gonna pull them all." He did, including the boss. The healer died first as the tank ran out towards the entrance. Then in H UP while Sorrowgrave was being transformed the tank decided he'd take on the entire next room before the fight started. Tank dies, Sorrowgrave is ready to attack...
On the other hand, there's no question that I'm running more dungeons in less time with LFD. While levelling a mage I'm getting to see more of dungeons that my two 80's either did once or missed entirely. However, he's often grouped with improperly specced and/or unpracticed tanks and healers who just want the short wait time and aren't able to manage. What's really fun are healers who do more dps than heals while the tank dies and everyone else bandages themselves. Best solution, as you say, is a good guild or a group of friends... else be (very) patient through the unfortunately frequently bad groupings while still getting more done.
Agreed that teamwork has been de-emphasized in game. It's less important than being number one on recount with 6+k GS. Especially amusing is the player who you know is running recount, but has to publicly ask someone else to post it to the group in feigned modesty. It's like watching a group epeen ******* session... not even a circle jerk.
There should be a Leeeeroy Tank thread... and there probably is. I've had my share of those in LFD. Just the other day luck gave me two in a row: First in H AN where he warned the group, "mana up cuz I'm gonna pull them all." He did, including the boss. The healer died first as the tank ran out towards the entrance. Then in H UP while Sorrowgrave was being transformed the tank decided he'd take on the entire next room before the fight started. Tank dies, Sorrowgrave is ready to attack...
On the other hand, there's no question that I'm running more dungeons in less time with LFD. While levelling a mage I'm getting to see more of dungeons that my two 80's either did once or missed entirely. However, he's often grouped with improperly specced and/or unpracticed tanks and healers who just want the short wait time and aren't able to manage. What's really fun are healers who do more dps than heals while the tank dies and everyone else bandages themselves. Best solution, as you say, is a good guild or a group of friends... else be (very) patient through the unfortunately frequently bad groupings while still getting more done.
Quote:
The teamwork part of the game has been pretty much destroyed in the last expansion and the use of add ons that people don't understand just adds to the confusion.
Agreed that teamwork has been de-emphasized in game. It's less important than being number one on recount with 6+k GS. Especially amusing is the player who you know is running recount, but has to publicly ask someone else to post it to the group in feigned modesty. It's like watching a group epeen ******* session... not even a circle jerk.
Scholar
49 posts
I have to say, after a long absence this is making me nervous about using the system. I'm wanting to LFD for emblems so I can gear up more. I'm just worried about what will happen when I show up as a 3600 Gear Score tank. I mean I'm way over crit immune for Heroics. But is that going to make a different. From what I've seen no. *sighs* I just hope it's not as bad as I seem to think.
Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Don't worry as soon as I am wrong you'll be the first to know. :)
I must like life easy
80 DK
Don't worry as soon as I am wrong you'll be the first to know. :)
I must like life easy
80 DK
Quote:
I don't know how many times I have been looting a corpse only to be shocked to find that the tank is at half health, why? because he has already ran up and started attacking the next group! It's like the tank is in this race for something; maybe it's to stop the bright star guy yelling "go, go, go", I'm not sure, but I'll tell you, as a healer, I find you have to be more on the ball between fights than during them anymore.
I was surprised to come back to WoW and find this to be such a common issue with instance groups. Healers don't need a long break between every fight, but give us a few seconds at least. I end up having to leave loot behind and chug mana potions just to keep up. It's extremely frustrating, considering 4 or 5 seconds of drinking would be enough to fill my mana bar.
Lukoi - 80 Resto Druid on Stonemaul
shammypowah wrote:
On the other hand, there's no question that I'm running more dungeons in less time with LFD. While levelling a mage I'm getting to see more of dungeons that my two 80's either did once or missed entirely. However, he's often grouped with improperly specced and/or unpracticed tanks and healers who just want the short wait time and aren't able to manage. What's really fun are healers who do more dps than heals while the tank dies and everyone else bandages themselves. Best solution, as you say, is a good guild or a group of friends... else be (very) patient through the unfortunately frequently bad groupings while still getting more done.
When I am on a pure dps class and see this happening, I cringe inside but keep my mouth shut. If I am on a healing capable toon that is currently running as dps, I openly question the healer. I am not sure why I act differently on different toons, but I do consider that type of action a complete failure.
I try not to be hypercritical of other healers, but I have a big problem with the healers who dps first and heal later.
Not that I've ever done it... >.<
When written in Chinese, the word crisis is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity.
Xcalibore wrote:
Problem I've found with Tanking is that one bright star in groups (and yeah only sometimes, but still) that is yelling "go, go, go" or something to that effect. Or the one that's telling you how to tank. Seriously, if you want to control the pace or strategy of a run, start a character and gear up to tank it yourself.
I finally had enough of this today. I snapped and went off a bit on a DPS. He said something like that on the final alleyway in CoS. It was a DK and I had already seen signs that he didn't know how to gear or spec(if I give him the benefit of the doubt, he was a PvP spec and stacking stam for some reason). Then I pulled a double pack(like I always do). Apparently it wasn't enough from him, because he felt the need to run and pull another.
I was on vent with one of my good friends(someone I've hung out with since Vanilla). She was healing our run. I asked her to do me a favor and make what I was typing true. And then I told him, "Dude, you run ahead and pull another pack, I swear to you that you'll be tanking it and will not be receiving another heal. Our healer is on vent with me and she's agreed not to heal you if you continue to act like a moron. Further, as the tank, I will pull as I see fit. If you have a problem with that, I have no problem booting you from this instance thanks to the fact that one of the other DPS is down the hallway from me and if I initiate a vote to kick he'll click yes without asking. So go ahead, tell me how to do my job just one more time. Make my day."
Those aren't the exact words as it was several hours ago, but I just wanted to tell you a story about how this is beginning to irritate me.
LFD stands for looking for drama, right?
Honestly though, it hasn't been that bad for me. Once in a while though you get a real derp; luckily its usually a dps and you can get through the run that most people overgear anyways. Since tanking is the one role I never do, I don't have to worry about people telling me what to do. nobody seems to bug a healer to 'heal faster!' or whatever. Both healer and dps are fairly reactionary to the situation the tank creates- when things are going right.
Edited, Feb 15th 2010 2:25am by digitalcraft
Honestly though, it hasn't been that bad for me. Once in a while though you get a real derp; luckily its usually a dps and you can get through the run that most people overgear anyways. Since tanking is the one role I never do, I don't have to worry about people telling me what to do. nobody seems to bug a healer to 'heal faster!' or whatever. Both healer and dps are fairly reactionary to the situation the tank creates- when things are going right.
Edited, Feb 15th 2010 2:25am by digitalcraft
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