Halls of Reflection Is Not That Hard!!Follow

I am starting to get really pissed off with the number of Random Dungeon groups that disintegrate as soon as HoR appears. Its fine for the tanks and healers who find new groups in seconds, but for a DPS who has to wait 15 minutes for the Debuff to wear off then another 30 minutes to find a group it is really damn annoying.

In the groups that have actually attempted HoR I probably have around an 80% success rate. But only about 50% of groups I am in actually start the dungeon. It is really annoying as it means ive wasted about an hour of playtime.

And its not helped by the way I cant do daily group quests while I wait. I cant do Battlegrounds. I cant do Wintergrasp. The LFG tool has some serious flaws.

No. It doesn't. You are perfectly free to seek for more. If people don't want to do that, it is their choice. It has nothing to do with the system. Would you rather Blizz LOCK people in them for 15 minutes? So when your DpS as to go because their house just caught fire, you are out of luck because they can't leave, and you can't kick?

The system is designed to create the least frustration possible, in general. And it is actually very well done. If you have a better system, I'd LOVE to hear it.

HoR is INCREDIBLY frustrating with many random groups. You actually have to know what you are doing in it. I hope that I don't get it every time I queue (as a tank). Would I leave? No. But I don't leave Oculus either, despite hating it. But the instance punishes stupidity pretty harshly, and I'm tired of trying to make up for that. Because, let's face it, most groups have more than we'd like them to in a normal heroic, let alone HoR.

And, if you hate queues, play a tank or healer. Simple. I'm leveling a Mage. My main is a tank. I'm willingly going to play him, despite getting near-instant groups on my current main (and I'll play him more than my DK once he reaches 80, since Yehoshua has gotten basically all he wants from Triumph badges and the slow grind for Frost pieces is kinda unexciting). That's because I've accepted that, as a DpS class, he'll have to deal with it. Because I'M the one that's choosing that role.

And your argument is ridiculous anyway. If you leave an instance, you have to wait 15 minutes for a group. Tanks generally get them in under 3. It isn't like they are leaving because they can enter a new group right away...

And why can't you do dailies?

The only daily I can think of that you'd be unable to do is Chillmaw. And that's only if you can't solo it.

Giving the power to the group leader would be bad, since it is a random system and the leader is just someone who happens to have checked the box (or not). They didn't create the group, and it could be their first instance ever.

But, you also have a big issue that that... isn't random. Which is the purpose of the system. You could just re-enter other instances until you got the one you want. And coding a limit on that would be REALLY annoying to do.

The rewards are for doing a random dungeon. You are completely free to run a specific dungeon for 2 less frost/triumph emblems and gold. But, if you want those *additional* rewards, you have to do it random.

Your suggestion is contrary to the purpose of the system.

The debuff is meant to function for the same reason. You can't just constantly re-enter LFG until you get the one you want. Well, you can, but you have to REALLY want to do no other dungeons to be willing to try that.

It really has nothing to do with people leaving. There will generally be someone else in the queue fast enough that Blizz doesn't care about that. Their issue is people trying to get around the random aspect.

For whatever reason (I don't know what it is), Blizz doesn't want you queuing for more than one at a time. That's the way of it. The LFG system probably evaluates the number of players in the queue for deciding how many partial groups to set up, though. Adding other aspects like BGs and WG may be a nuisance to their ability to set up groups quickly. And that seems to be what annoys you, so it isn't wise to suggest a system that would further reduce it.

Plus, they probably want people to queue for what they WANT to do, not just the "first thing available." That cuts down on the number of half-assed players in <insert event>.



Blizz said they plan to do something like this in the future, but it will likely be limited to one (and I agree that 3 is WAY too many). But they don't really like the idea, and are only going to do it if they think there's a big problem with people leaving the instances they don't like.

Why? Because, again, the point is to enter a RANDOM instance. Letting players opt out of 25% of the options, or whatever 3 is, is ridiculous. 1 is enough (and most will probably choose Oculus...)



That's so much coding work to affect such a limited pool of candidates. And then you are just going to end up with stalemates. Groups of two DpS who don't want the debuff, but know that it will take too long to get a healer and tank. Why should only one of them have to wait? Both wanted to do the initial group, and both were abandoned with it. It is effectively dead. But one gets punished for some arbitrary reason that he left the dead group when the other was "forced" out?

But offering it to the last two is just as stupid.



Of course it has flaws. It's a man-made system that interacts with human users. But, you are the one here ******** about it, when it is one of the best changes WoW has seen since Battlegroups were first implemented.

And, if you don't want to queue, then enter as a group. Problem solved. YOU are blaming BLIZZARD for HUMAN errors. It has nothing to do with them. You are 100% free to form a group and then enter the random queue. If you choose not to, then you choose to risk extra wait times. The price of being lazy, I guess.

Stop pretending like you have no options. The system's flaws are minor, and few of the ones you are attributing to it have anything to do with Blizz.

[EDIT]

And letting players queue for Questing (which I don't think even exists anymore) as well as Dungeons, or dungeons and PvP is an issue.

Why?

Because they don't want you leaving half way through the group quest because your dungeon is ready.

If you want to dailies, that's fine. But you actually have to dedicate time to group ones. And that's the only kind that you can't do while in the queue.

Seems to work fine to me...

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 6:43pm by idiggory

Well you have had better luck then I have because most of them are fails that I get stuck in. Only few I have won is with the exploit which I am sure will be fixed soon enough.

I know nobody here will agree with me since everybody here pretty much has everything on farm but I personally think the new heroics are rather hard at least from a healers perspective. I mean every fight you do the whole group is taking large amounts of damage, especially melee. On my priest if the tank is the least bit lacking I generally can't keep tank healed AND dps in the group because its pretty much chain casting Prayer of healing and circle of life when it pops up. IF I get a lacking tank and have to cast Greater heal on him the rest of the dps seem to just fall over dead from the stupid amount of AE damage from pretty much everything.

Heck I have yet to join a successful PUG that can farm the first bit of trash in ICC 10 without massive wipes. So much for the idea of making 10 man ICC something EVERYONE would get to experience. MAybe when we are lvl 85 everybody will be able to enjoy it.

HoR is burly beyond all belief. I'd say heroic version is on par with Heroic MGT. Its intense as a healer. Very intense.

I also agree the limitations on the LFG system is annoying. When I go as DPS sometimes the queues can be in excess of 30 minutes. I would like to be able to BG while I wait. Or when I'm using the raid browser be able to queue for heroics as it can take hours to find a raid on my battlegroup. Otherwise I just sit around and so I haven't even bothered using the raid browser unless I'm partially AFK or chatting.

A lot of this sounds like:

I want a random dungeon so I can get two more emblems and some gold, but I don't want [Occulus], [Halls of Stone], [Culling of Strathholme], [Halls of Reflection], [Pit of Sauron], [Old Kingdom] or [Utgarde Keep] or [Violet Hold] or [Gundrak]. Anything else will do, however.

(enter specific dungeons of you disliking between the [ ]'s)

And as for groups disintegrating when HoR pops up, is that a lot of people don't want to get pwned and spend 30-100g in repairs after six wipes. Or, they don't want other people int he group to get pwned and have the same result.

If you have a crappy tank who doesn't know which mobs to target first, or a healer who's not up to snuff, it's gonna be a wipe-fest.

And if you don't want to spend 15 mins in queue to have HoR pop up, just enter the regular LFD and check off all the boxes EXCEPT HoR

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 7:53pm by bgredsox

Well, yeah, it would. You didn't tell me to come up with a better system that still stayed true to one aspect of the original one. The dare was "The system is designed to create the least frustration possible, in general. And it is actually very well done. If you have a better system, I'd LOVE to hear it." I told you how to get a system that is less frustrating for the most people. Since I'm guessing there are more people out there who want to bail Halls of Stone than go through it, it is, of course, only an assumption.

Another annoying aspect is that you get the debuff the moment you enter the group. I'm assuming that vote-kicking doesn't remove it, which presents another problem. What if you join a random PUG and they boot you right then and there? Let's say you join a HoR random and while your gear is enough to fool the supposedly built-in gear-checker, it's still far too low for you to present enough value to the group. Either your DPS is less than 2k, you have 20k health as the tank, or the like. I've seen it, so don't say the gear-check system works.

Now, while that guy might be worthy of a vote-kick, he'd still have 15 minutes of waiting before he could join a random again. All because the system wrongfully put him in a heroic he wasn't ready for yet. He simply joined a random heroic and that random turned out to be the only one he couldn't do, so he got 15 minutes of bench time for it. Fair? Hardly.

Of course, this is all assuming vote-kicking doesn't remove the debuff, in which case I still say my system causes less frustration, albeit not while staying true to the literal intention of the random thing.

For anyone that wants to avoid a certain instance...

1) "i" to bring up the Dungeon Finder.

2) select "Specific Dungeons"

3) click the little box next to all the instances you want to do, leave the others empty.

4) ???

5) Profit.

2 less badges, but then, it's no worse than when the extra badges were from a daily quest. Do what you want, get a badge from each boss. Go with the RNG, get 2 extra badges.

Specific suggestions aside, I think it makes sense to step back and look at Blizzard was trying to accomplish with the new LFG system. Based on the blue posts I've read, it seems like the system's primary goal was to help introduce casual/undergeared/less-experienced players to content they wouldn't otherwise see (and to group PVE in general). The LFG random rewards are incentives to more experienced players to play with people (and hopefully "train" them as well) they wouldn't otherwise group with...and the penalties help enforce that.

It may be annoying to get stuck with something you don't like, but I doubt that Blizzard wants to make a change that will make it easier for experienced players to get rewards with less effort while making it more difficult for beginners to get groups...

I'd rather be forced to do a dungeon that is hard instead of one that is boring.

Ulduar and ToC I'm looking at you.

The only thing that bothers me is that for some reason Blizz thinks that my Warrior is geared enough to tank H HoR and I don't think I am. The last time I got put into there on random, I had under 30k hp and it's not a matter of it reading my dps gear because my dps gear is worse than my tank gear. >.< At least when I got put in there last Sat night, I was grouped with all guildies and we switched roles around and managed to make it through but you can't count on a pug including a healer who is also a well-geared Pally tank and a dps Druid who is a decently geared healer to cover for a tank who just isn't geared for the place that the random stuck her into.

Of course on my Shaman I have no qualms about any of the places the randomizer can put me. I'm geared enough for ICC and I know the heroics well enough to know what to do in the more tricky pulls. I think I could get by in any of the heroics reasonably well on my Hunter too and my DK is still poorly geared enough not to be able to queue for the harder heroics so theorhetically he shouldn't find himself randomed into one of those.