Icecrown Citadel : 3.3Follow

You are just such a badass! Look at you throw out anecdotal statements about how long it took you to run ToTC on your server as though it applies to anything meaningful. You're just the hardest of the hard core. Bodhi should be worshiping you where you stand.

You absolutely are. But what you aren't entitled to do is bypass the process. There are already oodles of shortcuts for players to bypass previous tiers of WotLK raids entirely. With EoT moving to heroics, you'll be able to gear for IC10 out of heroics and ToC10. That's more than enough of a boost for anyone who wants to take part in the defeat of the Lich King. Plenty.

Latest mobs to appear in Icecrown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFVjyEfp7nY&feature=player_embedded

Uh...did Arthas swing by Outlands at some point to get new hirelings?

Follow your own advice please.



I'm inclined to disagree. You're a mediocre raider with an ego conplex. Get a hold of yourself, man. If not for me, for the CHILDREN!!

But what about 5 mortals and your faction's most boob-a-licious female? The Lich King may be dead, but he's still a guy. Two, technically. Even he'd get distracted.

Just tell Sylvanas to keep her trap shut.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 10:05pm by IDrownFish

The option to kill a boss...any boss...more than once is sort of that one bend in the fabric of time that MMO devs have had to accede to in order to ensure that everyone gets a shot at the shiny lewtz from the boss and people have something to do between content releases. There's really no comparison between the option to kill a raid boss once/week every week and the option to kill the same boss in both 5 man and raid versions.

And again, IC10 is not likely to be a horribly demanding raid. It will be relatively easy to gear for IC10 (which I say with 100% confidence because it's already easy to gear for IC10 and it's only going to get easier with 3.3). The challenge...the thing that will be blocking more dedicated raiders for an length of time will be the hardmodes. There aren't a ton of guilds (relatively speaking) who are 5/5 in ToGC25 right now. There are a ton of guilds that are 5/5 in TOC25. There are PUGs for ToC10 forming in abundance every single night on my realm and most of them are successful with full clears. IC10 will likely be a little harder to PUG as the encounters will be a little more complex and it will take longer to clear than ToC10, but it will be something you can PUG if you want to take part in the Lich King's demise.

And, since it's already been verified that you won't be defeating the Lich King in the 5-man component of Icecrown Citadel (and from the sounds of things, you won't even be fighting him) it's all pretty much moot. Apparently (for reasons of their own) the devs also agree that the Lich King dying in both a 5-man and a raid is not a scenario that they want to implement.

I was responding to someone who responded to a post of mine.



It's not about difficulty, it's about mechanics. Blizzard can be much more creative with mechanics for content tuned for 10/25 people than they can with content tuned for 5. Unless you want the Lich King fight to be a straight tank 'n spank with a lame gimmick or two, it belongs in a raid.



Those are questions you should be asking the devs at Blizzard, because the decision has already been made.

Why are you bothering to argue this? The decision has been made. I've explained to you why I feel raid encounters are a more suitable venue for major bosses than 5-mans. What you haven't done is explained to me why you had no issue with Kel'Thuzad, Malygos, Sartharion, and Yogg'Saron in raid dungeons but now it's an issue with the Lich King. (And no, arguing why you didn't like the concept of them as bosses at all is not the same as explaining why you didn't argue that you couldn't kill them in a 5-man.) Just because you think the Lich King is so iconic that it's a shame that not every Tom, ****, and Harry is going to have 3-4 hours/week to work towards killing him does not suddenly alter the reality that major bosses are in raids. That's just the way it works.

The only reason this entire argument is taking place is because a handful of hopefuls saw mention of the Lich King in the 5-man and jumped all over it with wishful thinking that he would be a defeatable boss. Now...even after it has been explicitly confirmed that he is not....you still seemed baffled by the straightforward reasoning.

First of all, I haven't done all of Naxx yet because of, well, time. A full Naxx clear takes a wee bit more time than, say, Sarth.

The Lich King, or Arthas, is a main antagonist of the Warcraft 3 series. He's one the characters you play and sort of identify with during that period. Kel'Thuzad, Malygos, Sarth and Yogg, unless I'm horribly mistaken, aren't really that prominent in WC3. I'd have no problem with minor "bad guys" being raid content. I realize that raiders might feel a lack of motivation if the "sub-bosses" are raid encounters while the big guys are 5-mans, but are you raiding for the story or are you raiding for the challenge? The story, if major characters are made 5-man encounters, would still be available to the raiders. It would just also be available to everyone else.



What? I don't understand that sentence, to be honest.



"That's just how it works" isn't exactly a valid argument as to why things are the way they are. That's like saying "Because" which is another way of saying "I don't know, but shut up." Fact of the matter is, it's only that way because another way hasn't presented itself yet. That's why I'm replying here. To make you - and anyone else who might be locked into the whole "raiders deserve better" mentality - see that there are other ways to make bosses defeatable by everyone without raid content being trivialized. I couldn't, personally, care less about the Valkyr Twins, but I still find the encounter extremely challenging and entertaining. I don't care much for Herald Whatshisname in Old Kingdom either, but I also find that encounter extremely entertaining and challenging. The only difference between the two encounters I just mentioned is that one is a 10-man encounter while the other is a 5-man encounter. Granted, the Twins require a bit more strategy and cooperation, but I've seen many a heroic group fall apart on the Herald because someone couldn't get the clones down or didn't know how to handle it.

I really don't see how the number of people coming together to kill a boss should have influence on the accessibility of that boss. If a 10-man raid instance can be done in an hour and a 5-man in the same time then why couldn't important characters be made bosses in 5-mans? If the content is equally hard (it must be if you can beat in the same time) then shouldn't the reward be equally big?

And before you tell me to pug things, there's an issue called achievements and time there as well. If I'm doing Onyxia with my guild, we'll spend 15 minutes putting the raid together and then 15 minutes getting to and killing her. If I'm doing it with a PUG I can easily spend 40-60 minutes while the raid leader is putting the group together (plus you need the achievement) and then 15 minutes getting to and killing her. Someone with limited time would obviously need a guild to do it and I don't think that's right.

I know, I know. That's the way it works. And I'm telling you that the way it currently works is bullsh*t. I know it's a multiplayer game, but I don't think people should be forced into guilds just to do multiplayer stuff. Blizzard obviously doesn't think so either, hence the LFG system which is being heavily modified these days.

And I know The Lich King won't be 5-mannable. Being in a raiding guild, I'm pretty convinced that I'll get to see the encounter, but I feel sorry for those out there who won't.

Edited, Nov 10th 2009 2:50pm by Mazra

So? This isn't Warcraft 3. This is World of Warcraft.



I've asked in this thread why, if lore is the issue, nobody kicked up a fuss about all of the other raid bosses being available to kill in raids only and the only responses I've seen were along the lines of, "Well, I thought it was stupid that they could be killed at all."



Sure it is.



This is where you need to stop.

Nobody said or insinuated that "raiders deserve better."

That's an absolutely moronic statement to make, and it shows your own personal bias. You resent raiders because they get more than you. They get neat exciting encounters. You get 5-mans and dailies. Raiders get all the top gear sooner. You get the welfare epics handed down with shifting emblem tiers. Raiders get to see parts of the lore that you can't see. When raiders are sitting around in-game or here on Alla talking about raids, you feel left out and obviously that makes them horrible people. Obviously they carry a sense of entitlement to "better" things because of how you feel at being left out.

You're playing an MMO. MMO developers can't please everyone. That can't make all content accessible to everyone without turning the game into a giant difficulty selection screen.



Again, it's not about difficulty. I've told you that. It's about the stage Blizzard sets when you approach a boss with 10 or 25 people vs. the one set with 5. It's about the additional mechanics Blizzard can throw into raid encounters because there are more people. It leaves you with the feeling that you've accomplished something more significant than downing a ho-hum 5-man boss.



Again, you're talking difficulty. You're talking time requirements. All the while you're fully and completely ignoring the one thing that, from a lore perspective, one might think would be more important to you...the atmosphere.



Why...now? 5 years WoW has been available. Why all of a sudden is this an issue?

The funny thing is, amongst those who do, there's always that snide remark waiting in the wings for people who, having had so many things made so much faster and easier, still complain for more.

Hey, it could still be TBC. You could still be stuck in a situation where if you wanted to fight the Lich King you had to do it in a 25-man raid after grinding 75+ emblems for each piece of gear that let you bypass the previous tiers of raids. There would be no easy-mode encounters that you could faceroll your way through...they would all be the same and tuned for the hardcore, not you, and that would be all you'd get. When Icecrown Citadel first goes live, there would be an attunement that would require you to clear Ulduar 25 and ToC25 before you could even enter.

But no, because raiders deserve better and because Blizzard is going out of their way to restrict accessibility of content you can pick up 5pc T9 for 30-50 emblems each in a dungeon system that will reward you with two bonus emblems just for letting the system choose a dungeon for you. And if you still need gear to augment your set you can run a 40 minute 10-man raid with 5 bosses for even more emblems and matching bits like belts, boots, etc. Weapons available from a 5-man heroic, raid extensions, and split tiers of difficulty intended to accommodate the casual and the hardcore alike. With no lockouts on 5-mans entered through the random tool and a system that will likely match you with a group and port you to a dungeon within minutes (if not seconds) of activating it, a skilled but casual player can mash through 2-3 heroics in an hour.

But no effort is being made to make it more accessible, amirite?

What you really want to do is get off the ninnywagon and stop pointing your finger at everyone else and trying to make them wrong for enjoying the game a certain way, especially when you have to include the devs in your finger pointing.

It's not like Blizzard said that they were making the Lich King a defeatable boss in the 5-man and changed their mind.



You know what you do then? Since Blizzard sucks, and the way they put together different tiers of group size for different things sucks, and not being able to kill the Lich King on less than an hour/week sucks, go kill him on a private server. I bet you could solo him. And since environment and atmosphere of killing him in a raid vs. a 5-man doesn't matter to you, killing him solo vs. in a 5-man shouldn't matter to you, either. Go gank him, collect your lewtz, and be done with it.

But ffs stop suggesting everyone who is happy with the current setup is wrong for it.

I could've made a breathtakingly long response to all of that, but seriously, we're stuck here. Obviously we're of different minds and there's no sense in carrying it any further. Just realize that I'm not biased against raiders. I'm one, too, you know. Maybe not hardcore end-game raiding with a top-5 spot on my server, but I raid.

As for the part I quoted, I guess we're both looking at the wrong (right) way. I'm suggesting everyone who is happy with the current setup is wrong and you're suggesting everyone who is unhappy about the current setup are wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Micros, someone's a little trigger happy these days and if you post with the slightest hint of sarcasm, or complaining (not that I found your post to include either in notable portions), even if your post also includes useful info, you get rated down. I've rated you up for bringing new stuff to the table.