Icecrown Citadel : 3.3Follow

When they break out of that bottom part of the curve, they're no longer extreme casual.



If you've got time for a 5-man, you've got time for ToC10. If you've got time for ToC10, you can get the gear you'd need for IC10. If you have the gear you need for IC10, you can get in on a PUG run towards the end of the expansion. Bonus points if you can join one that is already partially cleared so you've got a quick shot to Arthas.

Also keep in mind that if Frozen Halls is to be dropping iLvl219/232 epics, you can bet it's going to be a step above ToC5/hToC5 in terms of gear requirements. Based on your argument, the uber-casual-can't-gear-a-toon-but-can-whine-about-not-getting-to-kill-Arthas are going to be dead weight in Frozen Halls, too.



Hi. How are you? If you can't put forward the time to progress your character...regardless of your reasons...you're not going to be killing Arthas.

So sorry.

Next.




You wish it meant nothing. I bet if you were to take a poll of everyone who currently plays WoW and is adequately irritated by the idea of the final death blow to Arthas coming in a raid dungeon to see how much time they've got at 80, the majority would have way, way more time than me. Way more.



Stop reaching. Please?

I'm honestly appalled that you'd take the argument this far. Parents this students that we're the majority cater to us blah blah blah BLAH BLAH.

BLAH!

Garbage.

QQ moar.



It's not irrelevant. It's fully relevant. If you've ever downed a boss in a 25-man raid you know it's a hell of a lot more spectacular than downing one in a 5-man group. 5-man bosses are a joke. There's only so much you can do with the mechanics of the fight because you've got an extremely limited number of people to work with. You have no offtank. You can't do a whole lot with prolonged group damage because you've only got one healer. Look at the Black Knight encounter in ToC...all of his AoE damage can be avoided by a savvy tank and attentive dps right the way through to phase 2 and then you've got a 10-15 second gearcheck burn through phase 3 before your healer goes OOM or falls behind. That's about as far as Blizzard can take mechanics in 5-mans in a way that puts you on the edge of your seat like a raid can. That's pretty lame.

In terms of entertainment factor, I'd much rather see a hail of ranged pewpew screaming towards a boss while the melee make hamburger out of his ***. It's exciting. It's fun as hell. When you get through it you feel as though you just participated in something cool. 5-mans? Not so much.



You're arguing poorly. Very poorly.

I'm talking about the total package. I'm talking about the experience of progressing a character through Northrend, to include the raids, leading to the final epic battle with the Lich King. I've raided all WotLK content on one character or another. I'm excited about the new raid encounter and have the rest of 3.2 to continue upgrading my gear from ToC10/25 and ToGC10/25.

If you're going to keep picking components out of the raid concept and throwing them at me like that individual component is all I care about, you're an idiot. Stop twisting things to justify your argument. If you stop and think rationally for a moment, you have no argument. Blizzard is NOT going to put the final boss of WotLK in a 5-man dungeon.

PERIOD.

Get over it.


Edited, Oct 6th 2009 9:44am by AureliusSir

Your ignorance is showing. If you've got time to gear to raid, you've got time to raid. Maybe not with a structured guild. Maybe not weekly. You might have to wait until 4.0 just before the Cataclysm retail box hits store shelves and score yourself a spot in an alt PUG for the last half of the raid. Whatever. If you want it bad enough to whine about it, you'll make it happen.

Either that, or you're just a whiner, but I'll happily extend to you the benefit of the doubt.

It's funny to watch a game change over time.

I'd argue that WoW is largely following the market here, the same as most of the other MMOs that have come out more recently. They are simply designing a product that will be consumed. The marketplace simply isn't made of the same hardcore gamers to the same degree as when the game was first released.

Anyone remember the N64 Donkey Kong game? The old monkey sitting around complaining "back in my day we only had 3 lives and 3 continues." Ya, that's how I'm seeing the genre these days. It's simply going the way of the other video games, that's where the money is.

Oh I could get irritated about it, but these things happen. I remember back when I was looking for a new SUV a few years back how much they'd changed. My old one was a stick-shift, and was more like a light truck with a canopy over the bed. When I started looking I couldn't find anything like that on the market, they all were built on mini-van and car chassis. Heck, I only found 1 or 2 you could get without carpeting in the back. Was I disappointed, yeah; but I had to realize they weren't making SUVs for someone like me anymore.

Regardless of what happens with Icecrown, its really all trending the same direction IMO. If a lot of the other video games out there are made to be completed with a simple application of hours behind a controller, why not do the same with WoW? It's what people expect these days, perhaps? or at least the majority? And besides, they still have 'hard-mode' for those who need to be challenged, goes the argument.

Do I like it? I'm meh about it; but if that's the way they want to go about it more power to them.

No you're not. I see PUGs forming for the last few bosses of Naxx/Ulduar on my realm every single night. I see PUGs forming for ToC10/25 every single night.



Unless you're a teenager at the whims of your parents, you can set aside time to do what you want to do. Are you going to get called in to work an hour into a raid PUG? Probably not. Are you suddenly going to realize halfway through said PUG that oh...gotta go study. Sorry, I though I had 3 hours set aside for tonight but now I've gotta go. Sorry. Bai.

Nonsense. Just excuses is all you're making.

If you want to see the content, you'll find a way to make it happen. It won't necessarily be on your terms, and it probably won't be something that will happen any time soon after 3.3 goes live, but you'll get it done.



No, you're a whiner if, presumably as a grown-up, you can't find a way to clear a raid, even if it means it happens towards the end of the expansion...and are coming up with all manner of excuses about it. There's not that much difference between a 5-man group and a 10-man group. It's basically 2 5-mans with one dps potentially swapped out for a third healer. The fights tend to be a little more complex so it does come down to a certain amount of skill, but the way Blizzard incorporated reg ToC10, I'm guessing IC10 isn't going to be all that rough.

That's it. Stop making mountains out of molehills.



So...what's the issue then? Do IC10. There ya go.



Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.

Blizzard isn't going that way. At least, not to the extent that some hopeful casuals would like to see. Like I've said, Blizzard has done a fantastic job of making WotLK content more accessible than they did with TBC. They said that's what they wanted to do, and they've done it.

TBC had one 10 man raid for most of its lifespan. Anything after that involved 25 people if you wanted to see the content, and for a lot of people that was altogether too much. I was on a pretty miserable realm for 25-man raiding guilds at the time and I was still quite new to WoW which meant I missed half the TBC raid content while it was still "current". Zul'Aman added another 10-man raid, but the path to progression from Kara -> Zul'Aman involved an obscene number of badges. It was sort of an afterthought that was better than nothing but they still had a lot of tweaks to make.

WotLK changed that. It started with 10 and 25 man versions of every raid dungeon. Hardmodes were added with extra loot for some or, at the very least, achievements that granted perks here and there. It has since expanded to regular and heroic modes of both 10 and 25 man content, which narrowed the skill gap even further. Throw in the way they've managed emblems and a reasonable person couldn't really ask for more.

After re-reading the release from Blizzard about Frozen Halls, all of this arguing is for nothing. It doesn't say that players will defeat Arthas in the 5-man. It says that they'll be able to earn iLvl219 (232 heroic) gear from defeating some of Arthas' most powerful allies, and that Arthas' true power will be revealed at the end of the dungeon. It says nothing about defeating him. It doesn't even say that you'll be fighting him. It almost sounds to me like there will be a wierd encounter involving Arthas, but it won't be the end of the Lich King. That's based on an objective view of what has been written so it's still entirely possible that I'm wrong. I just highly doubt it.

Obviously I'd not join a raid if I might risk working/studying that day - therein lies the entire problem. Seriously, Aurelius, you're not even trying anymore. Every time you insult me over something and call me a whiner in the process, you fail to realize that you've become a whiner as well, making up excuses that are completely out of grasp with reality. You're comparing me to yourself and that's your first mistake right there. I don't have a guild that can just wham together 10 people for a raid from day to day. We plan raids ahead, you have to sign up, etc. I can't tell with a week's notice if I'll be able to attend the entire raid that night and being one of the guild's healers, it's pretty crucial that I don't just up and leave halfway through a raid - so I choose not to until I know I have the entire day off.



I'm sure my guild would appreciate my wish to spread the raid out over two weeks.



I rated you down for implying I have no friends.

No, seriously, you've got a point, but it would require my 9 friends to be okay with spreading it out over two weeks, right? Yeah.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 7:55pm by Mazra

What do you mean "risk"? You have to work that day or you don't. You have to study that day or you don't. Got an evening free? PUG a raid. Big deal. Again, mountains out of molehills.



So what? I'm not talking about weekly raids on a fixed schedule. I'm talking about being able to see reg IC10. STOP. MAKING. EXCUSES. PUG it toward the end of the expansion. Fill a spot last minute when someone who signed up didn't show. Whatever. It's not rocket science.

It's been a long time since I posted here, but I felt that this was something I had to voice my opinion on.

To me, this is a microcosm of our current cultural(meaning American and European) view on competition. In a day where we have tournaments where all the kids get trophies, the little league games are all ties even when the other team scores 14 runs more than you, where the kid who outperforms everyone else but gets the same ribbon as the kids who just watched... I find myself surprised to be surprised about this.

Some of you have stated that "story>challenge", well tell me... how does it fit in with the story to have Arthas beatable by 5, even with Sylvanas or Jaina? For the sake of the story, it SHOULD be a challenge! Challenge=Story in this case.

I understand the peple with RL concerns, I work full time and take full time courses and try to maintain some form of social life. If Arthas were only 25man I probably wouldnt face him until level 85, however I cannot help but feel that bringing the looming Ner'Zhul down to 'our' level takes away from it. It is like an elevator to the summit of Everest. I'm not saying that it's right for someone in a wheelchair not to reach the peak, but is it right to take away the accomplishment of those who train for years, building their strength and skill, pull themselves over the last bank of ice after actually climbing the face, to come face to face with a 13 year old who took the easy way up, and they both get the same view from the top of the world.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree that this might cause me to quit WoW once and for all...

The difference is that I have to study every day. I have to work everyday. I have other commitments every day.

Sometimes I can manage to finish the absolute minimum (and then some) early enough that I can get decent time on WoW. Other times, I can do a few dailies and that's it. Often, I can't get on at all. And, because this is highly dynamic due to different variables (changing work schedules, teacher's whims, familial obligations), it is not predictable. I know I'm not alone in this. I'm sure thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) have very similar constraints.

Add in the people that have even less free time, or who have kids, and it just gets that much harder.

Gearing up is difficult enough. I know my class. I've taken the time (out of playing, I might add) to learn about it. To research builds. To examine what changes I'd need to my gear and spec, etc. What I don't have is time. If I start seriously trying to gear up my toon now, I may not see the 5-man Arthas fight until next summer. Why? Because I'm lucky if I can scrape together one fight a week. Add in the fact that I'm trying to gear up a tank or DpS (I'm a DK) and it gets that much harder to get parties, since I'm not already geared.

What I have done is read nearly all the books. I've done the quests (and read the text). I've played throughout Northrend. I deeply care about the story.

Tell me. Why should someone who raced to 80, never read quest text, knows next to nothing about the LK lore (let alone others) get to face Arthas and I don't? I care more about getting to him. The raider cares more about a challenge. At least, they should.

I would gear up and raid, if I could. I'd LOVE to be able to. But most days I can't guarantee forty-five minutes unless I actually try to rearrange my schedule. For a video game.

Why? Because the only time I have a decent internet connection is when I'm in my room. Think a party is going to be happy I'm grabbing a free hour and running with a latency of 5K on a university wireless connection that drops out frequently? I'd bet not.

But I know I deserve to see Arthas. I know it'll take some time to get to him (like I said, I won't be able to do it anywhere near 3.3's release). That's true of a LOT of people. But, if they made it a 10 man, I likely couldn't see it until I was level 85 with high mastery and could get some others to go back to it with me.



It's funny that you say that, because most of the lore-junkies I know were pissed as hell when they discovered that he was killable at all. Honestly, once you get over that, you just don't care how many did it. It was so unbelievable in the first place that it just doesn't matter if it is 5 or 10 or 25 people.

Yogg-Saron was, before his death, likely WAY stronger than the single Lich King. This is a being that could mess with time from inside his hole. His corruption leaked out all over the world. He transformed the Night Elves into Naga from a distance. He corrupted Death Wing. Other Gods were involved too, of course, but he was the strongest of them all. Even the LK feared him.

If 25 people can kill him, I have no problem accepting that 5 can kill Arthas. Then again, I don't look at it that way. I see the player as being a representative of a much larger group in Lore. Like, 1 player = 10 lore characters, or something. Otherwise, most battles just don't make sense.

Plus, no one ever said that the number of players in an instance means a harder boss. You kill Kael in a 5 man at 70 and Anub'Arak the first time with 5 at 73-75.

Does that mean I think Anub'Arak is the stronger lore figure? No. I'd imagine he's way weaker, since he can't use magic (which is unbelievably strong in lore).

Things like levels and numbers are just gameplay features. They have nothing to do with the lore or story. Will it feel more epic with 25? Of course! And people who can run those get rewarded with that. The people who can't, though, at least get to be included in the Arthas kill. It's better than nothing.

[EDIT]


He's listed as a boss on the official site, so you will at least face him. I desperately hope he is killable, or else I probably will never see it (just as I still haven't seen ALL of BC endgame). It's possible he isn't, but you will fight him.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 3:57pm by idiggory

The bigger problem to me is the assumption that "even casuals" can free up an hour three nights a week.

My guild did a one-night (full) clear of Ulduar10 to 1/2way through keepers (FL, Ignis, Razor, XT, Kolo, IC, Auriya, Hodir, Thorim -- not our first time in). Took about three hours. And it was a PITA to organize.

We've got a ridiculously high percentage of professionals and phDs (or candidates). There's no way we're going to be able to routinely get everyone to block three nights a week for raiding. We managed to get one night a week from everyone. And that's a minor miracle. We're good at what we do, and we don't take a "casual" approach to raiding, but we're time-strapped as a guild. If we were more laid back, we wouldn't even bother raiding. Unfortunately, we like getting the kills and the phat loots.

On a separate note: Thank you Blizzard for extending the raid lockout timer. :)

So you are actually suggesting that people without the time just join a group and be a drain on 9 other people.

You know Aurelius, I find you very interesting. Your last few posts have been nothing but bashing Maz and me for QQing, whining, being illogical, etc.

Yet, all your posts just read like elitist crap.

And you know what? I've lost any respect I had for you as a poster (which wasn't exactly a lot). I'm not "making excuses." You acted high-and-mighty because I "put words in your mouth?" Don't pretend like you know anything about what I do in my life. You've just proven to me that you're an elitist ***, and I don't really care about your opinion because of it. I care about trying to get the best experience for every player. You (and you said it yourself) care about nothing but your own experience. Some of us have school, and jobs, and familial obligations that DO monopolize our time. It's great if you don't and can play WoW for 5 hours a day. Good for you. But there's an actual world out there and some of us have to live in it.



Fine. Then why do you care so much? You could just say, "this is how it is and that isn't going to change." Instead, you feel the need to dissect every little sentence of every post to try and prove you're right and to bash the other posters. It's completely childish. And, not only have you not bothered to actually provide real arguments against them, you bash the people for contributing to the discussion.

Seriously, find some friends and/or some better DPS. It normally takes Jon and I about five minutes to set up a heroic group, 30-40 minutes to run tops.

Not acting as if you know everything might help with that.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 3:21pm by isyris

Oh, I can play an hour three days a week. I can play more than that actually. Heroic daily, the actual run usually takes 15-25 minutes to run with good DPS (I set the pace because I tank). My gear score is about 2400 on wow-heroes (recommends ToC10), which is not bad considering I usually only do 5 and 10 mans due to old hardware.

But I'll play an hour at 5 am when I wake up. Or on a night when my wife is working. Hell, sometimes I get a bunch of free time and will play for 3-4 hours and chain heroics or make money or something fun. But there's absolutely no way that I can guarantee what times I'll be on, nor can other people in my guild.

We make a collective effort one night a week, and that's a sacrifice. But we kick *** when we do.