Why invite a Rogue?Follow

I don't know. Why would you possibly want a Rogue in a 5-man, or raid for that matter?

I'm so sick of PvE on my Rogue. Anyone who knows me knows that PvE isn't my favorite part of WoW, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. This month was the perfect time to PvE, since Honor rewards are not available, and heroic and raid drops are a good start towards a decent set of L80 gear.

So, I tried. I tried very hard to gear up. I've run enough heroics to have ~80 badges (of which I spent 60). I've run Naxx25 twice, and that Onyxia-like dragon encounter twice on heroic (can't remember the name, Sartharion maybe?). My gear isn't great, but it's not bad. I've focused on +hit, am well past the yellow cap, and have a good spread of AP and expertise in there. I'm a bit low on crit. However, I've got 2-3 days played at 80, most of which was spent trying to gear up. The one thing I have NOT been able to attain is a main hand epic sword. There are no craftables ones, no heroic drops, no rep rewards and only a couple of heroic raid drops that I haven't been lucky enough to get.

Fast forward to now. I suck. There are a number of reasons why Rogues are doing so badly right now:

1. They are possibly the most gear dependent DPS class, right beside Warrior. Rogue talents simply don't make up for the lack of gear the way ranged DPS classes, and other melee classes like Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman do.

2. Rogue DPS is single-target. EVERYTHING in WoTLK, including raids, involves a ton of AoE DPS. It's everywhere. Rogues have the worst AoE DPS in-game. Fan of Knives is generally terrible, and even when they take away the cooldown next patch, it still costs 50 energy = 4-5 seconds of regeneration to recast once out of energy.

3. Even PvE-Deep Assasination-Mutilate, the most single-target-specific spec doesn't put my DPS over ~1600 unbuffed, 2000ish in Raid. For my gear, and the fact that ALL I CAN DO IS SINGLE TARGET DPS, that's friggin terrible.

4. Hybrids can outdamage me, and they can heal/rez/off-tank in a pinch! I have no added utility to offer, but yet Hybrids are rather easily out-DPS'ing me.

5. Fights are nasty to melee. Sure, they can be nasty to everyone, but there are so many fights in heroics that involve taking sustained damage just for being melee. I've found myself dead over and over - and while it may be the healer's fault at times, and my fault at other times, there is still an overwhelming feeling that life is harsher than ever as melee DPS.

Let me throw in a couple of disclaimers. It's not as bad in Raid as it is in 5-mans due to the fact that I can make good use of buffs, especially LoTP and BoM/BS. Also, just because a Mutilate Rogue can stunlock you to death does not negate from anything I'm saying, so please no "LOL ur bad rogues kill me in like 10 seconds!" replies. Also note that I dont' suck - I've worked on my shot rotation, practiced on dummies, tried a bunch of different specs and gear configurations, etc.

In my mind, a class with very poor PvE defense and almost no utility should make up for it with stellar DPS. That's the whole point of a glass canon. Otherwise, please give me some self-heals and a rez like the hybrids that out DPS me.

I'm going to go level my Druid ... Moonkin all the way. ***** this melee DPS ****.


Edited, Dec 15th 2008 1:03pm by Jordster

Edited, Dec 15th 2008 1:04pm by Jordster

Edited, Dec 15th 2008 1:07pm by Jordster

I would say that if you're having a hard time putting out the dps in a PvE environment that rogues are definitely in need of some love. I know you know the class.

I would also say, however, that this AoE madness is a player created thing. The mechanics allow it, but it's not really as efficient for a lot of things as some players seem inclined to believe. Single target focused fire still has a place in WotLK, but I doubt we'll ever see it re-emerge as the primary way of doing things. AoE for most classes is putting a green ring over a pack of mobs and clicking. Single target involves thought. I still mark all targets in heroics with a single target kill order, but that's as much for me to be able to glance at party frames and see each member's target based on mark if things are going wrong as it is to enforce a particular strategy.

Lately I'd be happy to have a consistent supply of dps who could push 1500+ on a regular basis in heroics. I'm not always so lucky.

Blizzard should at least up the damage that trash mobs can do so you will die if you try to AoE a whole pack unless you absurdly outgear the place. Which is how it was in TBC.

Well I can't speak for 5-mans, but with regards to raids, with the currently disgustingly bugged Honor Amongst Thieves, with the proper raid/group stacking, your rogues will put out more dps than any other class. They are not limited by energy, or combo points, but wind up actually being limited by the GCD.

Wheeee go go moonkin Jordster!

Stealthed druid is cuter...

Nah, warriors trump them there. Battle shout. "HIT HARDER!!!"

I'm starting to feel it on my rogue as well... maybe I should have started my mage in wotlk. while my rogue is only lvl 78 atm, I feel as my damage is weak. I did a 5 man the other day and dk's three lvl's lower were passing me on dps. I pulled out ever trick in the book and got mine back up a bit.. .but considering they were 3 lvls lower, its just sad. as mentioned, rogues seem the most dependent on gear, and even when you have close to the best for your lvl, you're still not cutting it. I'm going to try to ride it out in hope that we'll get some blizz love. although like i said, i probably should have started my mage in wotlk and put the rogue on the backburner. I dont like feeling useless, or like the weakest link in a group. I don't expect to always be on the top in groups, but being in the middle/lower third is just sad.

I'd have to agree with the general sentiment. My main is a rogue, and other classes who are less geared then myself put out the same or more damage then me. Blizzard wanted to even out the DPS of all the classes, but all they have succeeded in doing is making rogue the least useful class.

Comedy relief. That and my rogue makes a killer egg-nog.

As it stands without the HaT thing, it's still broken if Rogues suck all the way up to some magic tipping point and then suddenly become imba. Any huntard can bang an over sized novelty keyboard with one clubbed foot on a macro and hit 2k DPS. (Then they spam the forums about how great they are apparently *cough Pots)

When I was 70 my rogue was one of the bussiest classes in PvE I have ever played. You have to work your *** off to keep up those rotations and maximize your DPS. And still at matching gear level my DPS was under my Hunters. Anyway I came to the same conclusion as Jord. Not really worth the effort. I still may level my rogue for PvP at some point in the future though becuase they are awful fun for that.

Although that Wstats showing that rogue at 9k is just sick.

To keep them geared and in your good graces for when they get buffed.

Because I agree. They suck pretty hard right now.