That paladin and mage fix was amazing

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#77 Nov 11 2008 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent

Lorimath

2,215 posts

Lord Justdistaint wrote:

tuskerdu wrote:

A mage can spellsteal HoF. My frost mage eats similarly-geared retadins for lunch -- if one doesnt start the fight right on top of him. But the only reason for that is that when he bubbles, I can iceblock through it. If you can't make yourself invulnerable or dispel that bubble, however, gg.

Oh, and though I do well against retadins (after learning to fight them over the previous weeks since BGs were full of them farming mid) I should point out that as a frost mage there are many rocks to my scissors -- arcane mages, good priests, bm hunters, locks and even arms warriors nowadays. Please identify a class that can handle a geared retadin other than an equally-geared frost mage or priest. (And, not playing priests, I'm unsure they can handle retadins, just assuming mass dispel/mana burn enables them to.)

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 5:28pm by tuskerdu

Arcane Mages like you as well, demo locks can cut it close as well, but not that close. Afflic would be closer but they can't survive our bubble. Without our "oh sh*t" bubble most kiting classes get a field day.

TBH, I don't see how a Arms warrior can beat a frost mage. If you get FoF when they need to finish you and DP, FB, possible BF and then CoC/WE Shatter, or IB + Glyph.

But I have not played a frost mage at 70.

Frost mage is supposed to be a pure counter to Arms warrior. And they are. But in today's increasingly "no counter" climate I don't see why mages are still allowed such warrior ownage. Rogues get lots of tools to defeat warriors such as Dismantle, why not give warriors tools to beat mages? Here's a good tip: give us warriors a Cloak of Shadows ability. That'd fix a LOT of the troubles with warrior pvp. Or give us a Bubble ability.

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#78 Nov 11 2008 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent

AnonFTWLogInFTL

10 posts

You guys remember the rogue that tanked Gruul and Illidan pre3.02? Yeah, I would love to see a Ret pally do that. Does that mean all rogues can tank Illidan or Gruul? Of course not, you have to some skill. You can get the same gear, but skill, judging by this thread, too many rogues fail, hard.

And rogues still complaining that they feel UPed now? Even after being given another IWin button called Dismantle? Rogues are a class that has a counter to every other class. Sure, 1v1 isn't balanced, but think about that, this is a class that can counter every other class. And people still complaining that the Pally can reset a fight with the bubble, how many ways can a rogue reset a fight?

Yeah, Ret pallies were OPed, extremely. But look at the Ret talent trees. Every other talent is loaded with crit chances. That's how the tree was designed, to be extremely bursty. OK, so they're trying to tone that down, but in the process, they're gimping Holy/Prot DPS. Sure, given a choice, you would never grind as Holy or Prot, but they shouldn't be penalized indirectly as is the case here.

Got to love that rogue who says his Pally friend can out DPS him on trash but not on bosses. OMG! Trash is srs bizness! Not raid trash, but 5 man trash! Why is that? Is it maybe because trash is going down so fast and Pallies are known for being able to front-load their DPS that other DPS classes don't have the time to catch up as they would on longer fights? That can't be right, right?

Oh, and the guy who says Pallies should still be at the back of the bus, hmm, wonder what classes he plays: Warrior, Druid, Rogue and Hunter. Oh, my!

And to the "pure" DPS classes that are worried about losing their raid spots, it's been said and I'll say it again: if you're a good player, you will always have a raid spot. Yeah, I can see why some of you guys would be worried.

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 6:51pm by AnonFTWLogInFTL

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#79 Nov 11 2008 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good

tuskerdu

Sage

861 posts

A frost mage can still handle an arms warrior, but it's a lot trickier now with bladestorm. Normally you can blink and kite til the cow's come home, but if you let them w/in 10 yards when blink is on cd, they can bladestorm and kill you within 6 secs. (They seem to outrun me when that ability is up, unsure if that's speed enchants or an ability that's not on the tooltip.) If iceblock isn't up you're in trouble. (Btw, you do have a CoS ability, it's bladestorm!)

I frankly think that's good. I was never a fan of rock/paper/scissors in its pure sense. An arms warrior should have a chance against a frost mage and a frost mage should have a chance against a rogue (as we now do).

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#80 Nov 11 2008 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good

Ehcks

Sage

1,594 posts

By the way, paladins can cast Hand of Freedom on themselves while stunned. The Divine Purpose talent makes HoF remove stuns, but doesn't make you immune to them.

Quote:

What does remove magic effects now for hunters?

Tranquilizing Shot

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#81 Nov 11 2008 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent

Jimpadan

Scholar

2,580 posts

Lorimath wrote:

Lord Justdistaint wrote:

tuskerdu wrote:

A mage can spellsteal HoF. My frost mage eats similarly-geared retadins for lunch -- if one doesnt start the fight right on top of him. But the only reason for that is that when he bubbles, I can iceblock through it. If you can't make yourself invulnerable or dispel that bubble, however, gg.

Oh, and though I do well against retadins (after learning to fight them over the previous weeks since BGs were full of them farming mid) I should point out that as a frost mage there are many rocks to my scissors -- arcane mages, good priests, bm hunters, locks and even arms warriors nowadays. Please identify a class that can handle a geared retadin other than an equally-geared frost mage or priest. (And, not playing priests, I'm unsure they can handle retadins, just assuming mass dispel/mana burn enables them to.)

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 5:28pm by tuskerdu

Arcane Mages like you as well, demo locks can cut it close as well, but not that close. Afflic would be closer but they can't survive our bubble. Without our "oh sh*t" bubble most kiting classes get a field day.

TBH, I don't see how a Arms warrior can beat a frost mage. If you get FoF when they need to finish you and DP, FB, possible BF and then CoC/WE Shatter, or IB + Glyph.

But I have not played a frost mage at 70.

Frost mage is supposed to be a pure counter to Arms warrior. And they are. But in today's increasingly "no counter" climate I don't see why mages are still allowed such warrior ownage. Rogues get lots of tools to defeat warriors such as Dismantle, why not give warriors tools to beat mages? Here's a good tip: give us warriors a Cloak of Shadows ability. That'd fix a LOT of the troubles with warrior pvp. Or give us a Bubble ability.

We have it, it's called the protection tree.

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#82 Nov 11 2008 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent

Lorimath

2,215 posts

Jimpadan wrote:

Lorimath wrote:

Lord Justdistaint wrote:

tuskerdu wrote:

A mage can spellsteal HoF. My frost mage eats similarly-geared retadins for lunch -- if one doesnt start the fight right on top of him. But the only reason for that is that when he bubbles, I can iceblock through it. If you can't make yourself invulnerable or dispel that bubble, however, gg.

Oh, and though I do well against retadins (after learning to fight them over the previous weeks since BGs were full of them farming mid) I should point out that as a frost mage there are many rocks to my scissors -- arcane mages, good priests, bm hunters, locks and even arms warriors nowadays. Please identify a class that can handle a geared retadin other than an equally-geared frost mage or priest. (And, not playing priests, I'm unsure they can handle retadins, just assuming mass dispel/mana burn enables them to.)

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 5:28pm by tuskerdu

Arcane Mages like you as well, demo locks can cut it close as well, but not that close. Afflic would be closer but they can't survive our bubble. Without our "oh sh*t" bubble most kiting classes get a field day.

TBH, I don't see how a Arms warrior can beat a frost mage. If you get FoF when they need to finish you and DP, FB, possible BF and then CoC/WE Shatter, or IB + Glyph.

But I have not played a frost mage at 70.

Frost mage is supposed to be a pure counter to Arms warrior. And they are. But in today's increasingly "no counter" climate I don't see why mages are still allowed such warrior ownage. Rogues get lots of tools to defeat warriors such as Dismantle, why not give warriors tools to beat mages? Here's a good tip: give us warriors a Cloak of Shadows ability. That'd fix a LOT of the troubles with warrior pvp. Or give us a Bubble ability.

We have it, it's called the protection tree.

...

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#83 Nov 11 2008 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default

zepoodle

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3,909 posts

Zafire the Tulip wrote:

Paladin can Judgement, CS, and Divine Storm in 3 seconds, and repeat the entire process 8 seconds later. They can make you run at 100% movement speed, and laugh as they can run faster. They can cleanse warlock curses and spells, get out of frost nova/frost bolt debuffs by simply cleansing or using HoF, and they can heal. I wont even BEGIN to talk about HoF. It can break out of stuns, make kiting impossible for classes that depend entirely on kiting for survival. Theres no reason a class should be able to do all that in PvP. Divine Storm having a 10 second CD is ridiculous. That means 40% of the time a paladin attacks every second with a two handed weapon. That's messed up. Divine Storm needs a longer CD.

You're a fucking ******.

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#84 Nov 11 2008 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good

GodOfMoo

Sage

2,550 posts

Quote:

Got to love that rogue who says his Pally friend can out DPS him on trash but not on bosses. OMG! Trash is srs bizness! Not raid trash, but 5 man trash! Why is that? Is it maybe because trash is going down so fast and Pallies are known for being able to front-load their DPS that other DPS classes don't have the time to catch up as they would on longer fights? That can't be right, right?

A. I was talking about over the course of an entire instance. On a single boss fight I win, but over the course of an instance he does.

B. Did you read the part where I said he was several gear levels below me? T6(me)->Badge->T5->T4->Heroic->Blues Greens(Him)

I wouldn't ***** if we were similar geared. But hey, my gear was so much better than his that it shouldn't have been possible for him to be near me ESPECIALLY SINCE HE FORGOT TO TALENT DIVINE STORM.

Anyways, I realize I've ******* some too. But I agree with the people who think the ******** should stop. Blizz is working on fixing it. We really can't do anything else.

EDIT: And Zepoodle, I think you just described Zafire's entire posting career on Alla.

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 7:18pm by GodOfMoo

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#85 Nov 11 2008 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good

Zafire

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Quote:

You're a @#%^ing ******.

Just unaware of the class. I haven't really been playing the game that long. I just PvP a lot and that is what I see. I have seen paladin's cleanse DoT's off me, I have seen paladin's break out of stun's using HoF, I have seen paladin's cleanse out of frost nova, I have seen seen paladin's bubble and burst through two people before the duration was over, I have seen paladin's run with the flag in WSG, i've witnessed a paladin guard a flag in AB for about 20-30 seconds against 4-5 people because they can bubble, allowing tons of time for their team to rez/get there. I've seen paladin's rep. me and spam flash of light, getting 5-8k hp of their hp back.

Paladin's only problem is a Mage. Other then that, they're the paper, scissors, and the rock.

Quote:

EDIT: And Zepoodle, I think you just described Zafire's entire posting career on Alla.

*Shrugs* I'm a noob to this game, like I said. I've been 70 for under a month. The best way to learn is through experience, which I have little of.

Everyone is ignorant at first. Some people don't find that acceptable since they're not anymore, I suppose. So feel free to harass me instead of educating me, I guess, if it makes you feel better. lol

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 7:25pm by Zafire

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#86 Nov 11 2008 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good

zepoodle

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Dude, I have no problem with you being ignorant on certain matters. No-one knows everything. I draw the line when the ignorant person speaks as if they're an authority on a matter which they confess to knowing very little about.

If you don't know anything about paladin class mechanics, do not comment on paladin class mechanics.

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#87 Nov 11 2008 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent

Bloodpigg

11 posts

Hell, since pallies can do everything, I'm taking my lock to tank from now on and my warrior to heal. And if I suck I'll just cry till Blizz fixes it...worked for pallies, roflmao.

I play a lock mainly and my only choice is to dps. God help me if I ask to be pretty good at it.

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#88 Nov 11 2008 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent

Zafire

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Quote:

If you don't know anything about paladin class mechanics, do not comment on paladin class mechanics.

It's not really the class I don't understand, I probably understand paladin better then any other class besides rogue. My ignorance is coming from the other classes. Mage, Hunter, and Shaman are probably the three classes I know the least about.

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#89 Nov 11 2008 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent

digitalcraft

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Bloodpigg wrote:

Hell, since pallies can do everything, I'm taking my lock to tank from now on and my warrior to heal. And if I suck I'll just cry till Blizz fixes it...worked for pallies, roflmao.

I play a lock mainly and my only choice is to dps. God help me if I ask to be pretty good at it.

You need to treat each spec as its own animal, because they really are. Formerly, retribution animal sucked. People rarely used it because everything else was better. Now its pretty good. That's a good thing.

And don't act like all a warlock can do is dps, you have healthstones. XD

No, but seriously, you can drain life to replenish your life, fear things like crazy, banish demons, enslave demons etc.

Retribution paladins can help heal (certainly not main heal, they go OOM VERY fast throwing heals, and it makes their dps go way way down so they're suddenly not close to good dps if they're throwing heals instead), take a hit or two, repent mobs, and give back a little bit of mana.

All class specs add a few benefits besides dps, and that's part of their balance. Look at all shaman adds.

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#90 Nov 11 2008 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default

AnonFTWLogInFTL

10 posts

Like I said, 5 man is srs bizness. I'm sure that there are more bosses than trash in any given instance. And it's not like no one was ever carried into t6 content. Having gear doesn't meant you know how to play. As for him forgetting DS, yeah, sounds like he's just stupid. FoTM is FoTM.

It's fine to express your dissatisfaction, but you're right, you were just whining. Be constructive about it instead of trotting out anecdotal evidence. Does Blizz care that you lost a 1v1 or that you got outDPSed in a 5 man? Probably not. But they certainly notice if Rets suddenly run wild in BGs and Arenas and are showing up on top of raid meters.

On the Beta forums, there was a post that kept tracked of the class DPS on Patchie! Guess where Ret pallies came in at? Yeah, behind Hunters, Locks, Mages, Rogues and Warriors, in no particular order. Sounds OPed to me.

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#91 Nov 11 2008 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent

wildsimian

Scholar

500 posts

With improved counterspell, slow, and frost nova, and blink .... an arcane mage's survivability is quite high. I've had a hell of a lot of fun with this. We'll see how it scales towards 80. Seriously, I've never had this level of survivability with my mage. Not to mention that the spec focuses on instant spellcasts.

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#92 AnonFTWLogInFTL, Posted: Nov 11 2008 at 5:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Dang, it only took Blizz how many years to give Ret the buffs they've been asking for? And how long did it take to nerfed them back "TO THE GROUND BABY"?

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#93 Nov 11 2008 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good

Jennave

Sage

62 posts

I play an arcane mage and a prot pld.

The changes to pld were and still are amazing. As a prot pld you hold hate though spaming holy spells and dealing damage. Blessing of Sanc. keeps your mana up so the more mobs you tank the higher your mana stays to keep spaming holy spells. PVP as a prot pld used to suck cause yeah you might live for awhile, but you couldnt deal much damage...now you can stay alive and deal damage.

Mages are far from OP, yes we deal more burst damage, but if anything gets near me, I am deader than a door nail. 3/5 times a rogue will kill me before I do much to it. I think what people dont like is that they actually have to watch for where a mage is hiding now cause if you dont your dead.

a good PVP combo to open with is arcane barrage, slow, arcane barage or fireblast, (POM Arcane Burst,Fireball), arcane barage, and if they are still standing use another instant cast spell. After all is said or done your down a good chunk of mana though, so you will only be abel to kill a few people before ya need to sit and regain mana. The whole check and balances of being a mage. I might be a glass cannon, but an arcane mage can eat through MP like it is candy. As a mage your dead if you run out of mana, your dead if something gets close to you.

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#94 Nov 11 2008 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent

Bloodpigg

11 posts

Quote:

There's just something funny about a lock and a warrior QQing. Oh, that's right, probably the lack of sympathy

I havent QQ'd yet. I made an honest statement.

And besides no matter what class is OP, if u talk to them they will 98% of the time find a reason or excuse to justify how fair it is.....only because thats the class they play.

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#95 Nov 11 2008 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good

Theophany

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13,048 posts

Zafire the Tulip wrote:

Everyone is ignorant at first.

Yeah, most people just don't run their mouths like you have until they're educated.

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#96 Nov 11 2008 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent

CBD

Scholar

4,512 posts

Ok, I'm sorry to pull something from the first page, but I'm just that surprised that it hasn't been brought up yet.

Ehcks wrote:

"A good ret paladin should out-DPS a decent rogue."
-GC

I believe I remember reading this post this quote was from, or reading an explanation of it, whatever. The key idea here is good vs. decent, GC was trying to make the point that skill should be more of a factor in DPS than it has been before, and that if you're a rogue that's just kinda coasting through things, you shouldn't expect (this is another key word) to be doing better DPS than a Ret Paladin who has put a lot of time and effort into things.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is taking something ridiculously out of context.

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#97 Nov 11 2008 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default

AnonFTWLogInFTL

10 posts

Quote:

Ok, I'm sorry to pull something from the first page, but I'm just that surprised that it hasn't been brought up yet.

Ehcks wrote:
"A good ret paladin should out-DPS a decent rogue."
-GC

I believe I remember reading this post this quote was from, or reading an explanation of it, whatever. The key idea here is good vs. decent, GC was trying to make the point that skill should be more of a factor in DPS than it has been before, and that if you're a rogue that's just kinda coasting through things, you shouldn't expect (this is another key word) to be doing better DPS than a Ret Paladin who has put a lot of time and effort into things.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is taking something ridiculously out of context.

This is a good point. Some people believe that "pure" classes should by default, be top DPS just for showing up. They don't think that the player has to work for it. Sorry, but that's not how Blizz is seeing it. You want to be top DPS, then you better work for it.

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#98 Nov 11 2008 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent

orickruns

View User Forum

242 posts

I think QQing at all right now has no point.

Right now the game is being balanced for level 80, not level 70, as we all know different brackets of PVP has different classes that are more powerful than other classes.

And to the guy that said the game is gonna have more shammies than now.. you obviously have no clue about them, they arent overly powerful in pvp at all. They are also the most under represented class of all of them.

Just play and have fun, worry bout how balanced the game is at 80 not 70.

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#99 Nov 11 2008 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent

AnonFTWLogInFTL

10 posts

Quote:

I havent QQ'd yet. I made an honest statement.

And besides no matter what class is OP, if u talk to them they will 98% of the time find a reason or excuse to justify how fair it is.....only because thats the class they play.

Maybe you should look up what QQ means. Or, by statement, you meant that you made more than one QQ statements? So, let me get this straight, you're saying that since Pallies can tank/heal/DPS all that the same time, your lock and warrior should as well? Or, did you mean that since Pallies can perform tank/heal/DPS roles then Locks and Warriors do so as well?

Do you want me to start laughing at you now or later? Last time I checked, Warriors were not only the top dog in raid tanking, their Prot DPS and utility got buffed. They still do pretty well in PvP and they're right there in the DPS mix for PvE. So yeah, you know the lack of sympathy I mentioned earlier?

You want to heal on your lock? I'm all for that. I've always felt that the best way to nerf a class is to give the class a healing tree. Just watch your DPS adjusted to compensate.

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#100 Nov 11 2008 at 6:28 PM Rating: Default

orickruns

View User Forum

242 posts

My 2 thoughts:

I hate how people who whine about Ret Paladins keep getting changes done to them, and therefore ***** up my protection paladin and presumably ***** up holy paladins as well. My SoW/JoW used to keep me up pretty well considering my ok gear. Now it doesn't.

I HATE how Arena is ruining this game. My PvE balance is now all messed up because people complaining about arena games. I wish I had a server that had no arena so I could play like I used to before all the whiners showed up

too true.

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#101 Nov 11 2008 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good

angryempath

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889 posts

Yesterday, I solo'd all of the 67 Elites in Nagrand for the Clefthoof/Windroc/Talbuk Mastery Quests on my 65 Retadin.

Just put on a bunch of Spell Power plate (some mail) and a shield(Landslide Buckler ftw)/1h mace, and spammed FoL and JoW (mostly FoL) while they wore themselves out on my (Improved) Ret Aura (I remembered reading a Rogue killing an AFK Retadin in PvP ending up with <50% hp). My gear isn't spectacular (quest items mostly, a few early instance drops).

Took a few tries on some of them, but it was only because another thing attacked me (pulling them to a safe place without a real ranged-attack was the hard part, had to ride near them without attracting other things). I won every time I got a clean pull, used 1 mana pot on some of them, didn't use Bubble/LoH each time.

My being able to solo 67 Elites @65 was possible because Ret Aura is actually good now (especially when you can't expect to do other forms of damage effectively) and Sheath of Light allows my Ret spec to easily acquire more Spell Power than my Holy spec in the same gear (not to mention the HoT on FoL crits almost makes me want to heal as Ret, before it was moved up the tree I was going to be a Holy/Ret hybrid). The spell pushback changes helped too.

I'm not sure if they've nerfed these quests (were orange group quests still), but I'm glad I tried to solo them >_>

Edited, Nov 11th 2008 11:25pm by angryempath

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That paladin and mage fix was amazingFollow