Ilidan... He's not evil just emoFollow

This type of 'no fault' mentality is what is ruining our society :P.

"Yeah, I killed my parents. But only because they tried to kick me out of the house!"

"Oh, ok. I get it. You're free to go kid"

/facepalm.


Illidan tried to create a new well of eternity 10,000 years ago after the first one was destroyed. This would have essentially brought back the legion for round 2.

He tried to destroy the icecrown Glacier by melting it, which would have essentially create the worse global warming scenario you can imagine, killing untold number of sentient being.

Etc.

Much as with Kael, having good intention doesn't mean you aren't evil. Nor does being able to explain why you did it make you faultless.

Edited, Oct 29th 2008 1:19pm by Tyrandor

Hitler thought he had good intentions, he is still evil.

When someone tries to eraticate an entire race of people, I call that evil.

Even if the people are very whiny.

Why? Maybe you're right, maybe not. All I'm trying to point out is that the line is often so thin it's incredibly hard to call anybody truly evil. Which seems to be the case with Illidan.

(Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here)

Tried? He succeeded (the well then gave fruit to the world tree Nordrassil), and it did not bring back the legion. The well was originally put there by the titans - clearly it is an important part of Azeroth.

He wasn't trying to melt Icecrown, he was shattering it.

But seriously, he did nothing evil in WC3, in my opinion. It seemed then Illidan was the victim of a highly predujiced and inflexible night elven society - their aversion to magic seemed baseless, as the legion were already there and could not get anymore there than they already were (when Illidan transformed and Furion was all "I haet u noob"). Striking against the Frozen throne wasn't really all that evil, just misguided. He didn't intend to detroy the world, just Arthas. He was an ambiguous character in WC3.

I'd agree that when he was further fleshed out in Knaak (LOL KNAAAK SUCKS) books and tBC he appeared to be genuinely evil and not just someone did slightly evilish things when they were required. That's obviously the direction blizzard wanted to take him in.

My definition of evil is "the intent to harm or damage an object or creature".

They accept the presence of magic users with some tolerance.

The problem is that Illidan was displaying addictive and destructive behavior that the Highborne and other vile beings had shown. He had consumed a demonic artifact and turned into some sort of entirely new monstrous creature. Furion knew the real reason illidan had consumed it.

He did slaughter innocent people along the many coastal villages to stop Maiev using the boats to follow him.

read my post, their aversion to magic is not baseless. its because of arcane magic [which is magic in its raw form] that the entire center of the planets major continent exploded and collapsed into the sea. Its bacause of arcane magic that the legion noticed them and managed to arrive. its because of the magic that millions lost their lives and dozens of gods, immortals, ancients and eternals were killed or currupted, beings who were necessary to the flow and well being of the planet.

And its proven to be able to this time and again, over and over.

You cna say that it was the misuse of arcane magic that led to this. But arcane magic is naturally unstable, addictive and eventually currupting because of, but not only due to, that addiction. One who is strong of mind can find it and there are alternatives and solutions to the addiction.

But why bother at all and take such a risk when you already have alternatives that are just as potent, maybe even more so, without the currutpive influeces? The night elves already have druidic nature magics and the energies provided from Elune. Theres also the light [but iam only mentioning that as a general alternative]. These energies, as mentioned, are potent as well and dont have the addictive and unstable qualities of arcane magics.



The major damage to this world isnt coming from those who are evil. But from those who are convinced they're doing things for the best and the costs justify that.

And the defination doesnt make way for those who end up evil. its a "prevention is better than a cure" scenario. Illidan wasnt evil at first, but he was on the path to it. Furion saw that.

Hell Brox saw it in Illidan during the first war with the legion.

not so much that "you're" not evil. But it certainly makes the person doing it all think so. And if you have plenty of people and society on your side, then no one really sees it as evil.

Truth is just our opinion/perception of reality. reality is well...plain hard and cold.

Hell that way, even those who arent on your side, can become sympathetic to what you do. Atleast until they realise the horrors of your actiosn first hand [this happens evetually]

ya but thing is, Arcane energy eventually causes even the best of grates to wear out and a fire spreads through out the house. And people tend to stick their hands inside that grate and start punching people in the face with it. And some kick that stove over.

you cant control drug use. eventually it starts to eat away at you and make you do anything for it. Thats what arcane magic tends to do.

all this stuff doesnt happen with nature energies, etc. No addiction, no instability.

Now in the case of jaina and such, its more a case of the fact that drugs have medical uses. Plus her focus is not on magic at all. She isnt greedy and dependant on it. Its a tool in her hand to be molded. What most people do is let it become part of them. Seek it as an ends unto itself.

All this is irrelavent though. And just a bit off topic.

Illidan wasnt evil, but he walked the line and kept dancing back forth with wilder and wilder steps till Arthas tripped him up and Illi fell head long into depravity.

rabid dog = put down.

they dont go insane.

they just become bears.

That doesnt have anything to do with the dream or nature magic. Its the physical state their in for much too long.

jaina is learning about magic and diplomacy as well. Not truly curiousity but a way of life. It is just a tool for her, just like wearing clothes. But some people make magic a core essence of who they are.

The kirin Tor and high elves had a lot of trouble wiht magic but nothing too major. Loads of wizards did delve into the darker side and caused a lot of misery.



blizz has very very clearly stated that magic is addictive and unstable. These arent my opinions here, they're all from lore.

Nature magic does not have drug like properties, arcane magic does.

This is why night elves hate it.

and as i said, it eventually currupts. Those 10,000 years made them completely depedant on it. They were dying out when they lost its link and now look where they are.

Magic isnt bad as such. Its just that you have to manage it well

The night elves have an alternative. Their happy with it. It doesnt bring up legions of demons and bring out mass destruction. They ahve bad bad experiences wiht arcane magic.

Edited, Oct 30th 2008 10:48am by Tenjen

"all i ever wanted was to study"

its not

"all i want to do is study"

and by the statement she means she was satisfied with just studying and didnt want to see her love go lich king, her mentor and teacher die, the heroes of her age slaughtered, her people killed, her home destroyed and demons rain down and ruin the planet.

it doesnt mean Magic is the main goal of her life. Thats what iam trying to say, she uses it, but she doesnt let it become her.

The high elves and illidan did just that. Magic became them. They couldnt live without it, they craved and desired it no matter the cost. And in the end they paid for it. And the few who realise the errors of their ways are trying to find a better way.



Thats circumstancial. The nature magic itself isnt harming you, other people are. You can throw any sorta situation into that. The nightmare isnt a product of the dream, its external influences. Blizz has hinted that its one of the Old Gods. [old and ancient evil]

It has nothing to do with nature magic as a product of itself.

Arcane magic AS A PRODUCT BY ITSELF ruins people.

This has lost any relevance to the topic now.

I was pointing out the fact that jaina isnt gotta become the human equivalent of wretched any time soon. She isnt dependant on magic, its a tool for her to use to achieve an means to end. Not as an end to itself.

Thats what illidan was doing, he craved magic, it flowed through him and he wanted to do anything to get it. It was his drug, his addiction.

Sometimes i wonder if we've seen the last of him. Maiev better have destroyed his remains.

Which makes me wonder about mount hyjal.

You still dont get the point iam putting across. Infact, we're on teh same page but you just want to argue what you think iam saying. What i am actually saying is that she is an example of how to manage the magic. Illidan and the highborne/high elves/blood elves [those 3 are the same lineage] and many others let arcane magic become them. They became wretched. Thats what i said when i first mentioned Jaina, she's like the doctor who uses the same drug the crackheads use, but for medicinal purposes. As a means to an end, not an end to itself.



As ive stated, the nightmare is a very recent occurance and its due to external forces, external evil forces, trying to destroy it and all that belong to it. In its natural state, the magic is nurturing and healing. Eventually we will hunt down this force and kill it. Nature magic is gained through everything around oneself, from nature itself. Druids go to the emerald dream to aid the emerald drakes take care of the dream. Nothing happens by simply using it. Furion and many nightelves/keepers of the grove have lived with it and not become currupted out of it.

Arcane magic by its very nature, curruptive and unstable. "unto itself".

The dream is an alternate world directly linked with azeroth, a mirror world where only nature exists as it would have been if no sentient mortal races had touched it. The dream doesnt connect the druid to nature, the druids connection to nature helps them enter the dream. Ysera made a pact with the druids that they will maintain their connection with nature [by her will] if they took time to sleep within the dream, she did this so they would always realise and appreciate what they strive to protect. They dont gain their powers from it, ysera will just not take them away as long as they sleep within it.

its also quite restful and invigorating. The emerald dream is just as important, if not more important, than the azeroth we know and live in. By going there the druids are making sure bad **** doesnt happen. And with the nightmare trying to do to the emerald dream what Arthas trying to do with azeroth. Thats certainly a great thing.

My point remains. Concerning only themselves, arcane magic currupts if you delve deep into it, nature magic does the exact opposite. Its like comparing demonic magic and the light. [not shadow]

Sorry, change that to "nothing especially evil". Everything he does is neccesaryto at least soem extent.

And no, it's far more comparable to the protoss glassing zerg-infested planets. Besides, there's no knowing what would have happened - maybe the earth would have just cried itself to sleep that night - it seems unlikely that Azeroth could be destroyed by the eye. Another sundering at the very worst, I'd say. There is no guarantee of defeating the Lich King by conventional means, and not without equally catastrophic human losses.



Er, sort of, I never disputed that Jaina uses it responsibly. I would class her as magic obsessed, yet she still uses it responsibly. Yes, we agree about the latter part, but not the former. The former is, however, a key point.

The point is this: arcane magic has drawbacks, but so does the druidic magic available to the night elves. It doesn't matter wether it's inherently dangerous or not, as a no strings version is not available to the night elves.