Long time raiders seem to lack skillFollow

I'm beggining to notice a trend in pug 5 mans of late. Everyone is absolutely terrible at what they do. Now i'm not the best hunter in the world, but i like to think i'm skilled at what i do(just a little). My raiding has up to and includes nef, as well as several world bosses, i pvp, i 5 man, hell i've been soloing group quests the last few days just to see if it's doable. But this is where the problem comes. I practise and practise to make sure i do my job well, now the so called "top end guilds" run some pugs to do instances like Steam vaults. A realitively easy instance that i usually only wipe once or twice on maybe 1 boss with The Fifth Star. So in this example, i know the strats, i've done it about a dozen times now. So i figuire a common pug from a top guild on my server would be able to handle it. O dear god was i wrong. This guild, let's call them guild a, invited me. I was the only outsider of the group. They had current gear, a very good healer, and me a skilled hunter. So we start the instance, the tank isn't very smart to start it off. he pulls without the rogue sapping, or the warlock seducing(yes i realize seduce sucks, but it can hold long enough to work), i try to salvage the situation by trapping the siren. A mob that can fear. I trap it, go to town on what the warrior is using. He runs over to my trapped mob and break the trap so he has 3 mobs banging on him.

The rest of the run kept like that, the rogue didn't have imp sap( a raiding rogue was specced for pvp, figuire that one out), the warlock feared several mobs into groups, and the warrior refused to let us properly CC.

Now my story might seem like a little rant of a night gone wrong, but wait there is more. I'm running into more and more groups like this. High end guilds with crappy players. They are terrible at this game, but because they could show up to raids they achieved tier 3 gear. where is a guild like the fifth star, which is made up of casual raiders, one shots bosses and doesn't falter on trash. And it's not because we know each other so well, it's because we have common sense to use all of our abilities and adapt.

So i guess what i'm really trying to say is, lol you have to actually pull your weight now. I wonder how many people are going to quit now that things aren't handed to them. Players who just want things handed to them like to say "No that instance is impossible" no it's not, nothing in this game is unless it's bugged, and even then unless the npc is missing you can find a way around things(there are exceptions of course) but no instance is impossible atm. So in essence best said by my buddy Levin "it's fine L2P"

disclaimer: yes this isn't well put together, nor is it really to the point, but something needed to spark you old vets into this. It's obvious that mindless raiding is gone, and the reign of the non idiotic player has come. Let us rejoice

5 mans are completely different from 40 man raids. In 40 man raids, rogues+mages+locks can just sit back and deal out damage. But in 5 mans, they will have to use CC, focus more on targets and aggro. People that were hard core raiders are used to not focusing more on a small scale. Not to make any generalizations, but I noticed myself that 40 mans required much less focus in order to complete. Just simple pull, bash, loot, and repeat. In 5 mans, it requires 5 fully aware players that are aware of their surroundings. Instead of 10-20 core people and another 20 just pushing 1 button.

The point is, 5 mans have a much higher chance for error. You are depending on 4 other people instead of 39. If 1/40 makes a mistake, theres 39 other people to correct, as well as more of your class. If 1/5 makes a mistake, then only 4 other people of other classes can make up for that. This is why, hardcore 40 man raiders who are dependent on others, cannot function well in a 5 man.

ROFL. you make me giggle.


There is NO use for imp sap in a raid. NO USE.

It's highly overrated in 5 mans even. Seriously, what's the big attraction? So the rogue gets the pack on him when he does it, that's what I'm here for. One Dem shout and the pack is on me, all's well.

So tell me with the current content being 5 mans, that imp sap is useless? you are nuts. progression is still in 5 mans for most guilds. So if you don't get the 5 man stuff you can't get the raid stuff. So in essence you think a pvp build is better. you make me laugh lol

ya, ive seen the same thing. people who were once "overgeared" who are, in the new BC environment, decidedly underskilled.

its quite funny really. while im busy with my buds (and sometimes you guys) CCing stuff and tanking/focus firing specific targets in a specific order, theyre busy complaining that they cant tank 3-4 guys at a time while their DPS spams their most mana inefficient AoE spell.

the new change to the kara key quest coming up in the patch will be nice too. i dont mind people coming into my instances to grab a key, but its nice blizzard is actually making people work for their stuff. and it gives me the reasoning i need to turn other people down "blizzard wants you to do it yourself, so do it yourself or dont do it".

I heard Tyrandor was an admin, God help us all.....

Some of us have real jobs and have to be away from the boards now and then =P Grats on the uhhh, promotion?

I've always observed that in World of Warcraft, because the fact is that any complete drooling idiot can reach level 60, and now level 70, you will always have retards to deal with. Now, how they get into some of these raid guilds is beyond me, and why raid leaders let them stay is even farther out there.

I think it's a mix of people who soloed most of if not all the way to the level cap(s) and have little group experience, people who spent so much of their time at 60 solely doing 40 man raids that they got weak at their job, and also there are a lot of people out there who have never been anywhere from their 1-60 time without a level 60 or two babysitting.

You know all those retards who invite a 60 to Deadmines, or won't run ZF without a 60, and those who think Strat/Scholo/BRD/LBRS are only for level 60s, yeah. These are the idiots we're dealing with now. We let them be babied all the way up and now they can't do their jobs.

What made me sad the other night is I was on my then 57 Paladin and there was a 61 Paladin with us in our Scholo run, and he didn't do anything. He said I was to main heal because he didn't like using his mana, and he demanded the mage pull, and he never used Righteous Defender or ANY seals, he just ran up and started whacking it on the back of the head with a one hander, making no effort beyond this. He then told me I was the one failing the group.

I was a 57 in Scholo taunting pulls off the mage, bubbling the mage, covering the 60 Hunter who apparently didn't know he had Feign Death, and doing all the healing.

God $%^& some people are idiots. Seriously, sometimes I wish WoW was another MMO where grouping was your only option to level, that way the complete retards would be weeded out, at least a lot more often than they are. I don't care who you are or when you started WoW, by level TWENTY I expect you to have at least a strong understanding of your class, and by 40 you'd best know how to do your job without thinking about it. Lastly by 60, well you better be able to impress.

Actually it is easy to see how they got into raids.

40 man means there are very few vital roles. For the most part you're either contibuting to DPS or contributing to healing. Which is not necessarily skill intensive. So long as someone can be taught the strategy intelligence is not reuqired for them to adequately contribute. Inside of a raid enviroment they succeed, and outsid eof it they don't.

:Cough: American Schooling System (although others are more extreme) :cough:

its not the American School System thyere just plain idiots.

I play on EU and ive seen the same happen, some people from top raiding guilds turning out to be total noobs. I think its bc you cant hide behind good players anymore and in 5 mans it really starts to show. 5 mans now seperates the men from the boys (corny i know but i couldnt resist :P)

In my previous raiding guild we KNEW when we went raiding that 10 of the 40 people were total crap only coming for the loot and literally nothing else, and totally not interested in properly learning their class, just in spamming their gear in every channel they can find, but they were tolerated and taken anyway bc they were active and you had to fill the numbers.
Also 40 mans didnt demand much attention and skill in the first place of most classes, you had a single task most of the time.

The game is finally becoming the "eliteness" i like, people toting around t4 - t5 will be certain to be kick ***, intelligent players.

Edited, Feb 11th 2007 10:53am by Sjans

Yeah, but that means Seo is gonna hafta tank, which means we're all doooooooooommmmmeeeeddddd.

I think the title of the thread should be "Some long time raiders seem to lack skill". I have seen both skillful and skill less long time raiders. I think some of it comes from people not taking the instance serious ("I am a tier x geared raider, this instance is automatically easy"), while others just plain suck. As a healer, I make damn sure to add any tank with good reaction times and skill to my friends list (I am in a small guild, so I usually pug instances).