Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

falling skies: cross-factioning pal/shm is not that badFollow

#1 Jul 22 2006 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
****
6,677 posts
I read this forum and all I see is ragging on the devs at the blasphemy that is allowing Horde to have paladins and Alliance to have shamans. News flash: this is a good thing.

How many times have you complained (or heard someone else complain) about the balance of the two faction-specific classes and how they affect battlegrounds, raiding, or anything else?
How many times have you seen a really nice piece of plate or mail armor, as appropriate, drop that had a bunch of caster-intensive stats and said, "Dammit, why do we keep having to get paly/shammy loot?" (At least paladins can wear the mail, but that's somewhat besides the point.)
How many times have you actually considered the design of encounters, and the impact of having blessings vs totems, and the other aspects that make the classes unique?
How many times have you complained when Blizzard takes one step closer toward homogenizing those two races because they are entirely too different to be fair to both sides, and yet players deep down really *want* them to be different?


Yes, it's a world of unfairness and dischord, but at least the developers are making it way easier on themselves in the future to create content, to take the paladin and shaman in different directions, and to OTHERWISE diversify the game. I'm sorry that you have a petty gut-reaction knee-jerk complaint that that doesn't satiate, but look at the greater good...

Complaint #1 wrote:
I...I just didn't think Blizzard would ever do it! Watch it go downhill from here, Peace between the Factions, love and harmony rule the Kingdoms of Azeroth, no more PvP, no more BG's.

Blizzard's done a lot of stuff you wouldn't have expected, or that was in their original envisionment of the game. They didn't think they would be tying servers together for battlegrounds, for example.

Complaint #2 wrote:
How much longer until there is no differences at all with Alliance and Horde?

How many differences are there supposed to be? If players find ways to complain about the relatively minor differences racial bonuses confer, they will kick and scream and whine and pout over unique classes...and they most certainly have. While some people like and appreciate those differences, they're also making creation of the game a total PITA as Blizzard has to think on a particular boss "now, Paladins have Blessing of Kings which makes this fight much more trivial for Alliance, but it's a good fight for Horde" (Broodlord among others) or "Shamans will find this a joke with a poison cleansing totem, but this is gonna be hard as nuts for Alliance." (Viscidus)

Complaint #3 wrote:
Sounds more like Blizz caving in to the whining that Paladins are better at Raiding and Shamans are better at PvP.

Effectively, it is. But not so much the whining of the players as the internal strife. See previous remark.

Complaint #4 wrote:
There's some idiot who wanted it this way for "balance", but there's about three million players crying in protest because this is a very stupid thing to do.

I would hardly call you in the majority, quite honestly. For every person crying this weekend, there have been 10 people throughout the many months that have argued in some way about faction imbalance.

Complaint #5 wrote:
'Flavor' them all you like, the masses of shaman will seem less mysterious and threatening to the Alliance, as the paladins will seem less of a juggernaut to the Horde once they become used to them.

Well, I've got nothing on this one. Collateral damage, I guess.

Complaint #6 wrote:
Oh, and one more Class to compete with for Plate, and one more class to compete with for your limited Tier drops, like those weren't annoying enough to wait for.

QQ more. You'll notice I play an Alliance hunter. I'm actually looking *forward* to this for that reason, because then maybe Blizzard will design more mail items I could use instead of just "Increases healing by 47." Three cheers for Mend Pet.

Complaint #7 wrote:
Influx of BE Paladins for the horde. Influx of Draeni Shamans for alliance. Could it get any better for alliance?

Being more of a raider than a PvPer, I see this as more of a benefit to Horde than Alliance. In fact, in spite of there being more Alliance than Horde, I've seen WAAY more complaints about paladins than shamans on just about every discussion board except maybe paladin class boards, so either Horde are a bunch of crybabies, or more likely, there's some real imbalance that's going to get resolved in Horde's favor.

Complaint #8 wrote:
Now shamans have almost no reasons to be brought into a raid group. Before, horde didn't have paladins and shamans were at least a gimped subsitute.

As long as shamans can cast healing spells for more than just a bandage or for their pet, and can save the raid with an Ankh, they will be "good for" more than many DPS classes.

And that's just what I was able to take out of the first page of the thread Seoman posted.



On the other hand, a few people do see the pluses:

Quote:
Maybe now they'll finally fix the pallie's protection tree. Another tanking class for raids wouldn't be terrible.

Quote:
On the other hand though, it allows Paladins and Shamans to have their own roles now. IF Blizzard does it correctly, they have the potential to make both classes truly shine, by making them seperate.

Quote:
I've thought about it a little more and IMHO I don't think this idea is really THAT bad. From a design standpoint, it makes it easier to make shaman and paladin unique without having to think about faction balances ever step of the way. This can be good as they can push pallies to be more tanking oriented and shamans to actually be usefull in PVE? I don't know. I do know that humans don't really like change and this is a MAJOR change. So naturally there will be a TON of ranting. After the release of BC the game will be a whole lot different. People will adjust and a couple years down the road, some of us will be like: "Remember when paladins were alliance only? God that sucked, I like my pally, but I never want to play alliance."


My apologies for not citing anyone's quotes, but I thought it better not to single people out for their complaints, and some of them I even modified a little.
____________________________
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
#2 Jul 22 2006 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
*
91 posts
Thank you Azuarc, you hit the nail on the head.
____________________________

“It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living.”
#3 Jul 22 2006 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,478 posts
Awesome post. I pretty much agree with you the whole way through. People are crying about this a lot more than I think they should be. After all, it does NOT affect anyone's game play. No classes were nerfed, no loot was nerfed. No content was removed. All it means is both factions can play all classes now.


and hey that last quote was me! woot!
#4 Jul 22 2006 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
***
1,280 posts
If it shuts up the people who whine about balance constantly it is worth it.
#5 Jul 22 2006 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
**
369 posts
Besides all the whining, people can now create UBER raids. I mean you could have all those Pally buffs and Shammy buffs at the same time! That's no small augmentation to any raid and will definately make things easier in raids.
#6 Jul 22 2006 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
****
5,645 posts
I think it's gonna be interesting, to say the least. I as gonna roll a Draenae (sp?) "something" but wasn't sure what. Now I am sure, It will definately be a shaman.

People keep saying "i won't invite a shaman over a pally for a raid" But in reality you should be inviting both. Speced right shamans can use some very helpful totems that while may not be totally earth shattering they will help a lot.

Stick all the casters in one spot and plant some mana totems near them. Drop an agility totem near the mob being fought and another one back by the hunters. Flametongue or anything really just buffs people up a little more making them stronger. Or drop some tremor totems near fear crazy mobs. Many possibilities.

And of course the self rez is always a plus, and any addition to healer classes in the game is ok by me.
#7 Jul 22 2006 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
**
282 posts
Nice post Azuarc, at first I was strongly opposed to the idea of Ally Shammy/Horde Pally, but your post has made me see the good that will come from it all. I sill think there are better ways they could have fixed faction imballances, but this will do alright; And you have to admit the lore is exceptionally well done for this change. So, while not the best way to ballance the factions (IMO) Blizz did pretty well.
____________________________
LinusRed wrote:
You win the internet!


Daienden in all other places

http://realmofstrife.proboards100.com/index.cgi
We'd like more minor races, don't be afraid to join!
#8 Jul 22 2006 at 11:16 AM Rating: Default
***
2,847 posts
plaidins have no place playing an evil faction. period. makes as much sence as having necromancer high elfs.

shamen can be netural however, and i see no problem with that.

but....rp is almost non existant in Wow anyway, so what the heck.
____________________________
power lies within shadows
#9 Jul 22 2006 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
***
3,500 posts
Quote:
plaidins have no place playing an evil faction.


Then what the hell are those pallies doing in the Alliance?Smiley: confused


edit: Why do I see [:deadhorse:] while I wrote [:confused]?

edit2: Fixed, my browser was just acting a tad funny.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2006 at 12:33pm EDT by Wootels

Edited, Jul 22nd 2006 at 12:31pm EDT by Wootels
____________________________
WARNING: My Engrish skills suck. Live with it.
#10 Jul 22 2006 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,478 posts
shadowrelm wrote:
plaidins have no place playing an evil faction. period. makes as much sence as having necromancer high elfs.

shamen can be netural however, and i see no problem with that.

but....rp is almost non existant in Wow anyway, so what the heck.



Well then what about warlocks? Anything that can summon demons has got to be evil.
#11 Jul 22 2006 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
****
6,744 posts
The horde are evil? That's news to...well...just about everyone.
____________________________
[wowsig]98090[/wowsig]

#12 Jul 22 2006 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
29 posts
This is my first post i put alot of work into this and i hope u like what i wrote

Quote:
People keep saying "i won't invite a shaman over a pally for a raid" But in reality you should be inviting both. Speced right shamans can use some very helpful totems that while may not be totally earth shattering they will help a lot.


TseTsuo thank you for saying that.I wish i could rate you up for saying that but i dont have the rank to do that since this is my first post.Anyway back on the subject

People who dont want shamans are going to regret it soon enough.Shamans can do things that paladins cant like mana restoration spells that is good for mages and warlocks or weapon buffs for rouges or warriors and stuff like that. If that isnt useful then what is then.

Quote:
I mean you could have all those Pally buffs and Shammy buffs at the same time! That's no small augmentation to any raid and will definately make things easier in raids.


yes Ancalimanarion the buffs would from both sham and pally on the same side cirtainly make raids easy to handle.

thanks for the people who read this,
Ariznoth
____________________________
Alliance
Lighting's Blade Server
60 Human Priest
60 Gnome Mage
44 Dwarf Hunter
37 Human Paladin

Horde
Bleeding Hollow Server
29 Tauren Warrior
24 Undead Warlock

I Can Count All The Way To Shfifty Five
#13 Jul 22 2006 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,883 posts
Quote:
Shamans can do things that paladins cant like mana restoration spells that is good for mages and warlocks or weapon buffs for rouges or warriors and stuff like that.


Then what's Blessing of Wisdom/Might?

Regardless this will throw off the balance of classes in raids. MC and other 40 mans were designed for 5 of each class. Buffs stacking will be nice, though.

I'm kinda torn myself over this issue.
____________________________
Makkaro of the Nightfall - 80 Gnome Rogue on Dark Iron (PvP)

"Is it that it's fun, or that it lets you forget yourself?"
#14 Jul 22 2006 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
29 posts
Quote:

Shamans can do things that paladins cant like mana restoration spells that is good for mages and warlocks or weapon buffs for rouges or warriors and stuff like that.


Quote:
Then what's Blessing of Wisdom/Might?


sry ure right Makaro thank you for correcting me.
____________________________
Alliance
Lighting's Blade Server
60 Human Priest
60 Gnome Mage
44 Dwarf Hunter
37 Human Paladin

Horde
Bleeding Hollow Server
29 Tauren Warrior
24 Undead Warlock

I Can Count All The Way To Shfifty Five
#15 Jul 22 2006 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
630 posts
Makaro wrote:
Regardless this will throw off the balance of classes in raids. MC and other 40 mans were designed for 5 of each class. Buffs stacking will be nice, though.

I'm kinda torn myself over this issue.

Right, but this is happening at the same time level 70 is, and thats going to "trivialize" them a lot more than this would. They've probably known they were going to do this for a long time, and so all Burning Crusade content will be balanced assuming both Paladins and Shamans in the raid.
#16 Jul 22 2006 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
*
119 posts
I figure i need to say a word or too here...

I would say horde and ally are pretty balanced with classes, races ect. Class X can beat Class Y with <insert exception here>. Its just the people who play the classes which causes the imbalance.

Personally, i hate the idea of the whole thing. As much as id love to have a shaman on the ally, i would hate for the horde to have palys.

Also wanted to throw in abit about BG here. Doesn't anyone else think that with horde palys, bg's would be even more in favor of them? From what i've seen, palys do much better in BG, they do better in groups than a shaman does.

Now alittle off the subject here...

Ive been seeing alot more Ally complaints on the matter than horde. But then again, ive seen alot more complaints over palys about how much they suck (which we all know isnt true :). If i had to make a guess hordies just want anouther class with a free mount :)... But really, whats the deal here people?

____________________________
Petewind ------ 70 Hunter ------ Kalecgos
Holypete ------ 61 Paladin ----- Kalecgos
Soquatiki ----- 70 Warlock ----- Gurubashi
Apo ----------- 60 Priest ------ Gurubashi
#17 Jul 22 2006 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
630 posts
Yes, Horde will have a PvP advantage if racials don't change. Before it was more or less fine since Paladins probably edge out Shamans in group PvP, but with factions having access to both the strictly superior Horde racials will have a big impact.
#18 Jul 22 2006 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
****
6,980 posts
shadowrelm wrote:
plaidins have no place playing an evil faction. period. makes as much sence as having necromancer high elfs.

shamen can be netural however, and i see no problem with that.

but....rp is almost non existant in Wow anyway, so what the heck.

You sir, are an idiot. The Horde was evil once, only because they were under the Bloodhaze because of the burning legion. If anything the Alliance is evil, and RP is pretty common....you jsut have to look a little hard. Also, I completly agree with Azuarc here.
#19 Jul 22 2006 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
*
84 posts
What are you talking about "Horde has better PVP racials"? Diplomacy can wtfpwn WotF any day.
#20 Jul 22 2006 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
****
6,744 posts
If you are claiming that racial abilities are why you are constantly losing in PvP then you are living with your head deep deep in the sand...
____________________________
[wowsig]98090[/wowsig]

#21 Jul 22 2006 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
29 posts
shadowrelm wrote:
Quote:
plaidins have no place playing an evil faction. period. makes as much sence as having necromancer high elfs.
shamen can be netural however, and i see no problem with that.

but....rp is almost non existant in Wow anyway, so what the heck.

LinusRed wrote:
Quote:
You sir, are an idiot. The Horde was evil once, only because they were under the Bloodhaze because of the burning legion. If anything the Alliance is evil, and RP is pretty common....you jsut have to look a little hard. Also, I completly agree with Azuarc here.


i am agreeing with LinusRed with the alliance evil thing bec it says in the history right here about the horde settling down and the alliance wanted to claim all the land

Quote:
Though victory was theirs, the mortal races found themselves in a world shattered by war. The Scourge and the Burning Legion had all but destroyed the civilizations of Lordaeron, and had almost finished the job in Kalimdor. There were forests to heal, grudges to bury, and homelands to settle. The war had wounded each race deeply, but they had selflessly banded together to attempt a new beginning, starting with the uneasy truce between the Alliance and Horde.

Thrall led the orcs to the continent of Kalimdor, where they founded a new homeland with the help of their tauren brethren. Naming their new land Durotar after Thrall's murdered father, the orcs settled down to rebuild their once-glorious society. Now that the demon curse was ended, the Horde changed from a warlike juggernaut into more of a loose coalition, dedicated to survival and prosperity rather than conquest. Aided by the noble tauren and the cunning trolls of the Darkspear tribe, Thrall and his orcs looked forward to a new era of peace in their own land.

The remaining Alliance forces under Jaina Proudmoore settled in southern Kalimdor. Off the eastern coast of Dustwallow Marsh, they built the rugged port city of Theramore. There, the humans and their dwarven allies worked to survive in a land that would always be hostile to them. Though the defenders of Durotar and Theramore kept the tentative truce with one another, the fragile colonial serenity was not meant to last.

The peace between the orcs and humans was shattered by the arrival of a massive Alliance fleet in Kalimdor. The mighty fleet, under the command of Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore (Jaina's father), had left Lordaeron before Arthas had destroyed the kingdom. Having sailed for many grueling months, Admiral Proudmoore was searching for any Alliance survivors he could find.

Proudmoore's armada posed a serious threat to the stability of the region. As a renowned hero of the Second War, Jaina's father was a staunch enemy of the Horde, and he was determined to destroy Durotar before the orcs could gain a foothold in the land.

The Grand Admiral forced Jaina to make a terrible decision: support him in battle against the orcs and betray her newfound allies, or fight her own father to maintain the fragile peace that the Alliance and the Horde had finally attained. After much soul-searching, Jaina chose the latter and helped Thrall defeat her crazed father. Unfortunately Admiral Proudmoore died in battle before Jaina could reconcile with him or prove that orcs were no longer bloodthirsty monsters. For her loyalty, the orcs allowed Jaina's forces to return home safely to Theramore
____________________________
Alliance
Lighting's Blade Server
60 Human Priest
60 Gnome Mage
44 Dwarf Hunter
37 Human Paladin

Horde
Bleeding Hollow Server
29 Tauren Warrior
24 Undead Warlock

I Can Count All The Way To Shfifty Five
#22 Jul 22 2006 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
630 posts
Sir Lenonis wrote:
If you are claiming that racial abilities are why you are constantly losing in PvP then you are living with your head deep deep in the sand...

Are you referring to me? Because I play Horde, and my last PvP team didn't lose for months. Not because of racials, though.

My point is simply that if both factions have access to the same classes, there IS a notable PvP imbalance. Horde racials are stronger in PvP--when I play an Alliance Rogue I'm so much weaker than my main its not even funny.
#23 Jul 22 2006 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
29 posts
Quote:
Are you referring to me? Because I play Horde, and my last PvP team didn't lose for months. Not because of racials, though.

My point is simply that if both factions have access to the same classes, there IS a notable PvP imbalance. Horde racials are stronger in PvP--when I play an Alliance Rogue I'm so much weaker than my main its not even funny.


You hit the point Cyador i see alot of the time that horde players have a better act in pvp than alliance even though i play alliance the most.

Is Horde better because most of the people that play horde are older than people who play alliance?

____________________________
Alliance
Lighting's Blade Server
60 Human Priest
60 Gnome Mage
44 Dwarf Hunter
37 Human Paladin

Horde
Bleeding Hollow Server
29 Tauren Warrior
24 Undead Warlock

I Can Count All The Way To Shfifty Five
#24 Jul 22 2006 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,035 posts
I completely agree, Azuarc. I think this is just a knee-jerk reaction to a very unexpected change, which is understandable. I think it's going to make things more interesting, honestly. I'tll also give people reason to actually take one of the new races to 60. Before, when someone on the forum or wherever asked if people were going to play the new races, a lot of people said they'd play for the new starting zones, then abandon them. Now there's a distinct reason and advantage for playing one of the new races.

One of the other complaints people had was about the lore, but I'm not going to argue it because some people simply have their mind made up that Blizzard is ruining the lore, while I think it's simply evolving and changing. We're never going to see eye to eye, so I might as well leave the topic be.
____________________________
[wowsig]2232602[/wowsig]
#25 Jul 22 2006 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
*
202 posts
For me the problem seems to be, there will no longer be anything "special" by playing horde/alliance since the can both access the same classes.
Its all a matter of looks now.
#26 Jul 22 2006 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,035 posts
Mugge wrote:
For me the problem seems to be, there will no longer be anything "special" by playing horde/alliance since the can both access the same classes.
Its all a matter of looks now.


For people playing a class other than paladin or shaman, how is that any different than it is now?
____________________________
[wowsig]2232602[/wowsig]
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 0 All times are in CDT