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ML etiquette 101Follow

#1 Apr 05 2006 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Pickup groups, aka PUGs. Some people may like them, but I've grown lately to despise them, especially on UBRS runs. Half of them break up after The Beast is killed, and you don't even make it to Drakk. People don't communicate effectively, and people often do exactly what their class isn't supposed to do, because they feel like it.

It's rather frustrating.

I'm just a tad pissed right now, I was testing out a nice enhancment build for my Shaman, and Seeping Willow dropped from The Beast. I really needed a decent 2 hander and to make a long story short, a Warrior and I rolled need on it and I rolled higher then him.

Warrior receives [Seeping Willow]

I lost it. My cool was gone with the wind, and at the end of a lot of cursing and nasty emotes two people were put on my ignore list in the end of it.

Folks, if you are the Master Looter for a raid, take the job seriously, and treat all members of your raid fairly. It's a serious job if you ask me, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Most of you know this already, but maybe this could be helpful to the person who just dinged 60 and is new at the endgame PUG dungeons. (LBRS, UBRS, Scholo, Strat etc)

The Do's

1. Have the looting rules known to all before you start the instance, to avoid any confusion when it's time to distribute the treasure. The norm for PUG's is that everyone is entitled to roll need on one non set item and one set item. (ie Elements set, Magisters set, etc)

2. Have the dead members of your raid rezzed before you loot. Some people do not like to have their face in the dirt while you are looting the corpse.

3. Link the items on the corpse as soon as possible. Everyone is waiting for you, and people will get upset if you're taking your sweet *** time about it! If you have screaming kids around you, your girlfriend is constantly yelling at you, or whatever the frequent distraction may be, maybe being the master looter is not for you.

4. Link all items on the body at the same time. Linking one item at a time gives the Master Looter an unfair advantage, and if you save the best item for last, and someone uses their need on the first item you looted, you can bet your *** you are going to have some angry raid members. After you linked all the items in raid chat, it would probably be best to roll on the best item first, and to roll on the worse items last. (My reason being so you aren't sharding an item that someone could need, but they're scared to waste their need on it)

5. Keep track on who has used up their rolls so far in the dungeon. When a member uses their need, write it down on a piece of paper in front of you and do scold them if they try to cheat. (some people will try to sneak in extra needs and then play stupid afterwards!)

6. Give a countdown for the item you that is being rolled for. This is how I like to do it:

[Zornov][Raid]: Here's what dropped.[Seeping Willow][Frostweave Cape]

[Zornov][Raid]: Need roll anyone for [Seeping Willow]?
[Zornov][Raid]:3
[Zornov][Raid]:2
[yellow]Alex roll's 36. (1-100)
Jane roll's 78. (1-100)

[Zornov][Raid]:1
[Zornov][Raid]: Jane wins.[/orange]

Then give them the item.
Do this slowly, when you are counting down, wait at least 3 seconds before each number. Give people a few moments to analyze the item and compare it with their current piece.

If their is a debate going on between raid members, hear everyone out and try to make the fairest decision possible.

7. Always double check the numbers when people are rolling! And be careful when you are selecting the person to give the item to, the text is small, you don't want to give a nice item away to the wrong person!

8. If no one rolls on a BOP item, get the group to all roll for the shard, and have someone be the disenchanter for the items. Ask the winner of the roll if he want's the shard or the item.

9. As the master looter you must be fair. Do not under any circumstances be influenced by private tells on the item. Make sure that any conversation about a roll is out in the open and able to be read by all members. If necessary, post any tells yourself.

For example,
[Alex] WTF?!?! Shamans can't use 2-handers!
[Zornov][Raid]:Alex says Shamans can't use 2-handers.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys, if you can contribute to this and discuss that would be great, please don't flame etc, does anyone have anything to add to this? Hopefully this will help someone. Smiley: smile

Cheers!

#9. Courtesy of Ohmikeghod the Venerable.


Edited, Thu Apr 6 03:32:46 2006 by Zornov
#2 Apr 05 2006 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
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1,230 posts
How about raid with people you trust?

Edited, Wed Apr 5 23:03:27 2006 by Arkenstone
#3 Apr 05 2006 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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2,740 posts
Arkenstone wrote:
How about raid with people you trust?


Based on the post, I'd say there's a damn good reason he plays in PuGs, otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't bother. How about you don't be a prick about it?
#4 Apr 05 2006 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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688 posts
I don't pug....period -.-
#5 Apr 05 2006 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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3,451 posts
Quote:
How about raid with people you trust?


Unfortunately, being able to raid with guildies cannot always happen, conflicting schedules and other people online are in the middle of their own quests, etcetera. I suppose I could sit on the bank rooftop and spam people with Chain Heals? That's always fun.

But seriously, in a perfect world of course I'd like to raid with friends and guildies, but we can't all just jump for each other in a heartbeat, can we?

Quote:
How about you don't be a prick about it?


Thank you, Bismarck Smiley: smile
#6 Apr 05 2006 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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3,451 posts
Quote:
I don't pug....period -.-


I suppose I could give that a try, and while I'm not doing instances I could stick to doing BG's, but it just get's boring to me sometimes. Meh.
#7 Apr 06 2006 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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50 posts
that's why I started the pvp grind. I can still control advancement somewhat and while pug's are still annoying in BG's it doesn't cost me time money or lost loot. Not to mention the rewards for me are infinately better.

Surprised your pugs make it to the Beast, usually I see pugs break up after Rend when the rogues/hunters etc don't see what they want drop.

Bunch of selfish babies in this game and the player base seems to do a crappy job of outing them as well.
#8 Apr 06 2006 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
Nearing completion of my tanking and FR sets for MC and challenges beyond and still living off PuG's. :p

All a pug needs is a good leader. No yelling, no name calling, get the N word out of your vocabulary unless you enjoy having your groups break up.

Though one rule I'll add: Don't be ML when you have gone over 24 hours without sleep. ><

I accidentally overlooked someone's roll when I was ML in such a scenario. She forgave me but god I felt so awful about it.
#9 Apr 06 2006 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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1,207 posts
i agree with your suggestions but there is always that risk with PUGs. You don't know if the group you're with will honor the rules or worse, know how to play.

i haven't had much luck with PUGs so far. The group breaks up after a bad pull.

In EQ, you gutted it out until the last possible moment. In WOW, it seems at the first sign of trouble people bail.

but that doesn't mean i'll stop doing PUGs. You just have to look a little harder to find the good players.
#10 Apr 06 2006 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Zornov wrote:
Pickup groups, aka PUGs. Some people may like them, but I've grown lately to despise them, especially on UBRS runs. Half of them break up after The Beast is killed, and you don't even make it to Drakk. People don't communicate effectively, and people often do exactly what their class isn't supposed to do, because they feel like it.

It's rather frustrating.

I'm just a tad pissed right now, I was testing out a nice enhancment build for my Shaman, and Seeping Willow dropped from The Beast. I really needed a decent 2 hander and to make a long story short, a Warrior and I rolled need on it and I rolled higher then him.

Warrior receives Seeping Willow

I lost it. Two more people on my ignore list in the end of it.

People, if you are the Master Looter for a raid, take the job seriously, and treat all members of your raid fairly. It's a serious job if you ask me, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Most of you know this already, but maybe this could be helpful to the person who just dinged 60 and is new at the endgame PUG dungeons. (LBRS, UBRS, Scholo, Strat etc)
The Do's

1. Have the looting rules known to all before you start the instance, to avoid any confusion when it's time to distribute the treasure. The norm for PUG's is that everyone is entitled to roll need on one non set item and one set item. (ie Elements set, Magisters set, etc)

2. Have the dead members of your raid rezzed before you loot. Some people do not like to have their face in the dirt while you are looting the corpse.

3. Link the items on the corpse as soon as possible. Everyone is waiting for you, and people will get upset if you're taking your sweet *** time about it! If you have screaming kids around you, your girlfriend is constantly yelling at you, or whatever the frequent distraction may be, maybe being the master looter is not for you.

4. Link all items on the body at the same time. Linking one item at a time gives the Master Looter an unfair advantage, and if you save the best item for last, and someone uses their need on the first item you looted, you can bet your *** you are going to have some angry raid members. After you linked all the items in raid chat, it would probably be best to roll on the best item first, and to roll on the worse items last. (My reason being so you aren't sharding an item that someone could need, but they're scared to waste their need on it)

5. Keep track on who has used up their rolls so far in the dungeon. When a member uses their need, write it down on a piece of paper in front of you and do scold them if they try to cheat. (people will try to use extra needs without being undetected and then play stupid afterwards!)

6. Give a countdown for the item you that is being rolled for. This is how I like to do it:

[Zornov][Raid]: Here's what dropped.[Seeping Willow][Frostweave Cape]

[Zornov][Raid]: Need roll anyone for [Seeping Willow]?
[Zornov][Raid]:3
[Zornov][Raid]:2
[yellow]Alex roll's 36. (1-100)
Jane roll's 78. (1-100)

[Zornov][Raid]:1
[Zornov][Raid]: Jane wins.[/orange]

Then give them the item.
Do this slowly, when you are counting down, wait at least 3 seconds before each number. Give people a few moments to analyze the item and compare it with their current piece.

If their is a debate going on between raid members, hear everyone out and try to make the fairest decision possible.

7. Always double check the numbers when people are rolling! And be careful when you are selecting the person to give the item to, the text is small, you don't want to give a nice item away to the wrong person!

8. If no one rolls on a BOP item, get the group to all roll for the shard, and have someone be the disenchanter for the items. Ask the winner of the roll if he want's the shard or the item.

Hey guys, if you can contribute to this and discuss that would be great, please don't flame etc, does anyone have anything to add to this? Hopefully this will help someone. Smiley: smile
Excellent post. I would add:

9. As the master looter you must be fair. Do not under any circumstances be influenced by private tells on the item. Make sure that any conversation about a roll is out in the open and able to be read by all members. If necessary, post any tells yourself.

For example,
[Alex] WTF?!?! Shamans can't use 2-handers!
[Zornov][Raid]:Alex says Shamans can't use 2-handers.

everyone would know...
#11 Apr 06 2006 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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2,293 posts
Tip:
To make sharding less messy let the ML preferably be an enchanter and let him/her roll /rand 10 or /rand 20 depending on the number of raid members. If he then rolls 6 the first guy in group 2 gets the shard.
No more problems of people standing out of range and then rolling and whining that they rolled higher while you didnt see the roll.

The Suicide Kings system is very handy for PuG raids. Everyone rolls at the start of a run to make a list highest gets on top, when someone needs an item he lands on the bottom of the list.

And if there is a guy/gal from a known guild in your PuG let him be ML, he/she has a name to uphold. (unless the guild its in is well well known for being in a ninja guild :P)


Quote:
If their is a debate going on between raid members, hear everyone out and try to make the fairest decision possible.


This takes way to long. Such discussions can last 10 minutes easily.
Imo, a ML never discusses who gets the item, in PuG's every item is FFA, everybody who thinks who can use it and can technically use it to the classes benifit can roll. Dont let yourself get in the "i get more benifit" whining crap.
Respect the armour classes ofcourse. (Maybe cloth to a Paladin, but thats te only exception imo.)

The most important part imo is, if someone won the roll on a boss drop, say who's won (like said) but wait 5 seconds before you give the item to the winner this give the party members some time to protest. Someone could be standing out of rolling range, if theyre just unjustly whining give the item.

Edited, Thu Apr 6 04:24:28 2006 by Sjans
#12 Apr 06 2006 at 4:27 AM Rating: Decent
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3,451 posts
Quote:
This takes way to long. Such discussions can last 10 minutes easily.


Well, of course the MLer should step in and make the decision way before it get's to that point, nobody like's to waste that much time. I meant something short, like a min or two. Smiley: wink
#13 Apr 06 2006 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
Well, the ML etiquette is very well written, but I've ran quite a few pugs for UBRS, probably 50+, and while we have had one or two leave early a few times, I have never had to call off one of my pugs for UBRS. Maybe people leave because of poor hosting of raids, I do not let this happen in my raids, and I will boot anyone who doesn't follow my rules which earns respect from most everyone in the raid and they want to help. If all of you who are complaining they hate the people they pug with, you host it. That was my solution at least.
#14 Apr 06 2006 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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287 posts
Old subject, but well written. There's really not any "new" information there, but some points were explained with a level of clarity I don't usually see on these boards.
Whenever I get pissed enough to come here and rant about something, my thoughts are so jumbled I don't get everything out I wanted to say. I come back to read it the next day, and half of it doesn't make sense.
#15 Apr 06 2006 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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What's this about spending "need's"?

If I roll need I'm not allowed to roll need again or what?

So if two Wildheart pieces drop I can only roll need on one?

I hope I'm getting this wrong.
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#16 Apr 06 2006 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
Same question as Mazra with a small change.

Quote:
If I roll need I'm not allowed to roll need again or what?

So if two Wildheart pieces drop I can only roll need on one?


If I ROLL need once?
Or if I WIN one need roll?
#17 Apr 06 2006 at 9:27 AM Rating: Default
would you like my expierience with good PuGs?

i'll tell you anyway

90% of my UBRS PuGs made it to drakkisath
1% included ninja looters
80% of the time the people were too stubborn to leave
0% of the raids wiped at the beast
30% wiped at drakkisath

20: times trying to reenact the leeroy jenkins video (we were waiting for someone to arrive)
0: successful attempts (they must have really sucked)
1: lvl 55 tried joining us.
18: times we wiped with the lvl 55 in tow
200: the amount of gold i've gotten in bribes to not roll for dal'rends
38: kamikaze orcs on the bridge to drakkisaths room
50: the amount of times i've gone in with a PuG
3rd: the highest place i've gotten for damage taken


well those are the statistics for my UBRS PuGs. i must have good luck with those raids.


Quote:
If I ROLL need once?
Or if I WIN one need roll?


well if you havent rolled for your regular blue then you could roll for both and forfeit your NS blue drop

Edited, Thu Apr 6 10:34:03 2006 by sapphirelegacy
#18 Apr 06 2006 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
Terrorfiend
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Mazra wrote:
What's this about spending "need's"?

If I roll need I'm not allowed to roll need again or what?

So if two Wildheart pieces drop I can only roll need on one?

I hope I'm getting this wrong.


General Rule is one blue and one set.

If a cool bow drops that you could use and you roll on it, and WIN it, you cant roll on any other regular blues in the instance.

If your set piece drops that you want and you roll on it and WIN, you cant roll on any other set pieces.

HOWEVER:

Every PuG ive been in wont just DE something if somebody can use it.

I've gotten several blues/set in a single PuG run.

But if there are lets say, two rogues who need the set and two different set pieces drop, you will each be getting one piece of it. You will not have a chance to win them both.
#19 Apr 06 2006 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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I see this has happened to you twice in raids now.

Although I have never seen this happen myself I was in a raid where there was this annoying little rogue that almost got booted on several occasions because he/she/it was a total as[/Darkcyan]s. After we kill the Baron the rogue legs drop and him and another rogue roll. As luck would have it the as[Darkcyan]s wins.

We all wanted to give it to the other guy but we played by the rules.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, could it be you?




#20 Apr 06 2006 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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KT wrote:
If your set piece drops that you want and you roll on it and WIN, you cant roll on any other set pieces.


That sucks.

Let's say I'm doing Strat. The bracers drop and of course I roll need. I get them and then the Wildheart Kilt drops at Baron. So.. Who gets the kilt?

Disenchanted?

Or should I then pass on anything that isn't set items and BOP? I could pass on the bracers and then the Wildheart Kilt doesn't drop and I just got screwed.

Edited, Thu Apr 6 13:59:15 2006 by Mazra
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#21 Apr 06 2006 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
Well, I'm sure exceptions can be made. If there were no other druids and everyone was feeling generous it would probably go to you.
#22 Apr 06 2006 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Dread Lord Elvidnir wrote:
Well, I'm sure exceptions can be made. If there were no other druids and everyone was feeling generous it would probably go to you.


yep, like i said earlier.

Ive never had a PuG DE anything someone could use.
#23 Apr 06 2006 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
That sucks.

Let's say I'm doing Strat. The bracers drop and of course I roll need. I get them and then the Wildheart Kilt drops at Baron. So.. Who gets the kilt?

Disenchanted?

Or should I then pass on anything that isn't set items and BOP? I could pass on the bracers and then the Wildheart Kilt doesn't drop and I just got screwed.


No, if it's yours by default then so be it. Just if you've gotten a set piece, you cannot get another until all others of your class have gotten one. With you being the only druid in the group in this case, that would mean you get all wildheart pieces since no one else wants them anyway.
#24 Apr 06 2006 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It would make sense if it was "one roll per class", but that's not what was being said.

I wouldn't mind losing the kilt to another Druid (save for the fact that Strat is no longer raidable), but losing it to a Rogue just because I already spent my "need" on the bracers would really, really tick me off.

And while exceptions are good, they're still exceptions and you could end up in a group who wouldn't give it to you.

Damn those enchanters to hell. Ever since they disenchanted the blue robe my priest wanted some 12 months ago I knew they'd cause trouble. Now they fuel the twink war and they still keep disenchanting stuff I could use.

Grrr.
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#25 Apr 06 2006 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I wouldn't mind losing the kilt to another Druid (save for the fact that Strat is no longer raidable), but losing it to a Rogue just because I already spent my "need" on the bracers would really, really tick me off.


In that situation I'm sure everyone would agree to let you have your kilt, we all know how difficult it is to obtain those. I'm almost certain they'd tell the rogue "no".
#26 Apr 06 2006 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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