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Rules for duelling?Follow

#27 Jun 05 2005 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm surprised that not one person, in *any* of these "what is cheating and what isn't in duels?" threads has mentioned what a classic real life duel was!

Up until 1800 or so duels were reasonably common in Europe. When a gentleman felt he'd been offended - that his honor had been insulted - he challenged the offending gentleman to a duel. The stories say that the challenger would slap the offender across the face with a glove and challenge him to a duel.

At this point, the classic duel story says that the offender (the person challenged) has the right to pick weapons, swords or pistols. The reality was - who knows? "Seconds" were arranged - each duelist had at least one friend to back him up as a second and to protect him in case the other guy cheated.

An arbitrar or neutral party would often oversee the duel, especially if guns were used - to make things "fair". There was often a good deal of negotiation over the duel. Where they would fight, would they choose from a pair of matched swords or be able to use any sword they wanted, what clothes they would wear - and so on - although in many places customs were established for this sort of thing. And they were usually obeyed.

But duels were almost never fair. Usually one man had a clear advantage over the other, and he often brutally killed his opponent. Duels were brutal and stupid - and were finally stamped out in real life.

Note, there are no Blizzard-supplied "rules" for dueling. You all aren't even touching issues such as outside 3d party software that, say, changed weapons really fast or gives other nifty advantages.

There are no "accepted rules" for dueling in WoW. If you want rules, you'd better make them before you challenge or accept. And keep in mind, there isn't much you can do except complain if someone breaks them.


Just thought of something ... ...
Maybe ... all those BOP items ... those could be the things people duel for ... can you duel in parties/raids? ... set dueling rules like you set looting rules before ... whoever wins gets the item ... whoever looses/cheats doesn't sorta deal ... ... nah ... forget it ... too late at night
#28 Jun 05 2005 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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A couple of points:

- Just because someone uses a potion doesn't mean that they are an alchemist. Potions are available on the AH for all players, thus it is not an "unfair advantage". It's a level playing field.

- Would you ask the weaponsmith or armorsmith not to wear that nice blue gear that he crafted for himself? Is that warrior who made himself an Arcanite Reaper cheating? Of course not.

- Unless the rules were agreed upon before hand, you'd be a damn fool not to use every advantage you had to win. Whether in a duel or in a real PVP battle. Anyone who tells you different is just being a sore loser.
#29 Jun 05 2005 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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- Just because someone uses a potion doesn't mean that they are an alchemist. Potions are available on the AH for all players, thus it is not an "unfair advantage". It's a level playing field.


But do you expect your opponent to always have a pot with them? Also potions tend to be a moot point. If both people use them (and thus it's "fair) doesn't it basically cancel each other out and accomplish nothing.

Quote:
- Would you ask the weaponsmith or armorsmith not to wear that nice blue gear that he crafted for himself? Is that warrior who made himself an Arcanite Reaper cheating? Of course not.


Armor and pots are not the same, that should be a given.

Quote:
- Unless the rules were agreed upon before hand, you'd be a damn fool not to use every advantage you had to win. Whether in a duel or in a real PVP battle. Anyone who tells you different is just being a sore loser.


duel is different from pvp. In a duel you aren't trying to win, you're testing your skill against someone else. So if everything is good does that mean I can use hacks?

Duel =! Pvp, get that through your head. The point of a duel is not to win, that is a simpleton notion.
#30 Jun 05 2005 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

duel is different from pvp. In a duel you aren't trying to win, you're testing your skill against someone else. So if everything is good does that mean I can use hacks?

Duel =! Pvp, get that through your head. The point of a duel is not to win, that is a simpleton notion.




Excuse me? So now the point of a duel is not to win? That makes no sense at all. Maybe for YOU the point is not to win, but if I am going to duel I am certainly going to try to win. And no you cannot use hacks since they are not allowed by Blizzard. But last time I read the rules I never saw anything official prohibiting the use of consumable items in duels. The whole argument about "its not fair" is just whining. You have the exact same ability to gain and use the item as they did, whether or not you chose to do it is a different story.

And yes duelling is PvP. By definition PvP is "player versus player". All that means is that it is one player versus another. Regardless of whether you are having a duel or engaging in cross-faction battles you are still engaged in PvP.
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#31 Jun 05 2005 at 4:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Excuse me? So now the point of a duel is not to win? That makes no sense at all.


Actaully it makes a lot of sense, if you understand the concept of testing. A duel is supposed to be a test, a trial, not a battle.

The reason we have simplified the point of dueling to winnign is that under normal circumstances winning the duel is equivalent to testing your skill against someone else and succeeding. However when pots are involved that changes, winning no longer means anything if a person needs a pot to do it.

It's kind of like "Haha I can beat you in hockey when I'm on steroids."


I will say it again. If you NEED a pot or engineering device to win a duel, you've already lost it.
#32 Jun 05 2005 at 5:19 AM Rating: Decent
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You should NOT use potions in a duel because, as said before, a duel is not a war, if u win by potion u lose a potion and win... nothing. If u use sheep bomb or something, it's complete waste of resourses u can better use later a PvE, to avoid death.
I can see your point if you want to learn how and when to use a potion/bomb when u face horde/alliances. But i takes no more than two duels to learn that and still i see people use bombs...

My question is, why ever waste money (potions, bombs etc.) to win a duel?

By the way, rouge has no healing spells, and the warlock's health stone take 2 seconds to make.
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#33 Jun 05 2005 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Armor and pots are not the same, that should be a given.


Why? Alchemy and engineering are crafts, just like weaponsmithing or armorsmithing. If someone is going to use the fruits of their labor in battle (nice weapons or armor) then I'm going to use the potions that I crafted for myself.

Quote:
But do you expect your opponent to always have a pot with them? Also potions tend to be a moot point. If both people use them (and thus it's "fair) doesn't it basically cancel each other out and accomplish nothing.


I expect everyone to carry the supplies they need. That means potions, food, bandages, etc. as needed. If both people use a pot, that doesn't automatically cancel the other out. It's all about when you use it that will determine how well you do. Heck, I'm not afraid to blind you and then bandage up while you're wandering about if I need to. I spent the time leveling this skill (which you could also have done) so I'll be damned if I'm not going to use it.

Quote:
duel is different from pvp. In a duel you aren't trying to win, you're testing your skill against someone else. So if everything is good does that mean I can use hacks?

Duel =! Pvp, get that through your head. The point of a duel is not to win, that is a simpleton notion.


Now you're just arguing semantics. A duel is training for real PVP. In real PvP, I'm going to use every legal advantage I have. (So, no, hacks are not included. Don't be ridiculous.) So if I'm going to teach myself how to win against other players in real PvP, then I'm going to learn when is the right time to use potions, bandages, or engineering items to achieve the best result.

Edited, Sun Jun 5 11:47:58 2005 by CipherSavant
#34 Jun 05 2005 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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Topic too long, I read the OP's message and the one under it, lol.

Usually in a duel I'll use a health pot if someone is 5+ levels higher ... but even in PVP I wouldn't waste a health pot. They're just too expensive if you can't make them on your own. But even then, I get fussed at and no one duels me anymore for a while because they saw me use a health pot against a level 60 warrior ... (I'm 53).

But really, I think that if you have them, and you're willing to waste them, go ahead and use your potions. It's like saying Priests aren't allowed to PW:S or Druids/Shamans heal in a duel or use totems/shapeshifting ... WTF.

On my alt, lvl. 11 Human Warlock, on Scarlet Crusade, I was dueling with a lvl 12 NE Druid, and ALL she did was run behind a building whenever I feared and shadow bolted her. Then she'd heal while out of Line of Sight, come out, get feared and bolted again, hide, heal, repeat until I'm out of mana, then she goes Bear form and starts beating on me ... THAT is what's wrong ... not the healing, but the hiding out of Line of Sight ...
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#35 Jun 05 2005 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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I think potions are unfair to use in a duel but i have them ready at any given time to use if the other guy uses one. I choose to not use them since I am better off using them in a instance or out in the world soloing. Its kinda of a waste to use them in a duel since if I lose i don't die, meaning no long run back to body. When that potion in the feild could prevent that.

However if the person I am dueling uses a pot so be it. I do not call him a cheater or whatever, I may pop my own pot and continue to duel.

So in conclusion its all fair play.
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#36 Jun 05 2005 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Spiritvoid wrote:
I think it's terribly unfair to use a potion i a duel. A duel is suppose to give a picture of the strongest of the two players, not to give a picture of the one with the best potions.
Healing/mana/rage etc. potions realy does change the picture of the strongest.

I got a rouge and a warlock, none of them have any healing spells. That's fair, because they got other bonus's. If they get healing too they will become imbalanced.
By the way i win almost all my duels without potions, so they're not nesesary, but if my enemies uses potion i would maybe not win, and then the enemie would look like the strongest. And that isn't true.



a warlock has healthstones... That is like a potion...
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#37 Jun 05 2005 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Potions however is not a standard part of you talent tree. It's an unfair way of suprising your enemy in battle.
Its as much a part of your character as any weapon or armour

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Pots come into the area of outside items and abilities, things not native to you, and it also makes duels a little more about money than skill.
Not really, since there's a 2 minite cool down on them if you use more than 1 you must be in one hell of a long duel.
#38 Jun 05 2005 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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This is a ridiculous argument. Everyone has the opportunity at the start to choose whatever talents they want , whatever profession they want and obtain whatever weapon they want. To say later in the game that an opponent can't use this or that is silly. You made your choices so live with it or don't duel. All's fair in love and war .
#39 Jun 05 2005 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

Actaully it makes a lot of sense, if you understand the concept of testing. A duel is supposed to be a test, a trial, not a battle.

The reason we have simplified the point of dueling to winnign is that under normal circumstances winning the duel is equivalent to testing your skill against someone else and succeeding. However when pots are involved that changes, winning no longer means anything if a person needs a pot to do it.

It's kind of like "Haha I can beat you in hockey when I'm on steroids."


I will say it again. If you NEED a pot or engineering device to win a duel, you've already lost it.



Now we are redefining what a duel is? According to the dictionary there is nothing about a test or trial for a duel.

If you want to set down rules before you battle, then I agree you should adhere to them. But, the rest of the time its anything goes. You have your own idea of what a duel is, but not everyone shares your opinion. And you cannot claim that its anything but an opinion. In order to validate your claim on what a duel is Blizzard would have to set down guidelines.

But wait, they have a manual. Lets see what that says about duels:

"As soon as the other player consents to the duel, you and the other player can begin attacking each other, using the same abiliites, spells, and tactics you employ against the monsters you fight against."

Well, as an engineer bombs and trinkets feature heavily into my battle strategy. I don't like buying potions all the time so I don't use them in duels except for my alchemist characters who have a ready supply of them. So I may hit the opponent with a bomb in a duel. Thats part of my characters battle strategy. I may also shoot a net-gun at you.

Your hockey reference is poorly chosen since steroids are specifically banned from use and illegal. None of the items we are discussing are banned, in fact they were placed in the game so that we WOULD use them. If we were to consider a duel practice and a test, then I would rather my opponent went all out. Handicapping your practice to boost your ego does not help you much. I would rather battle opponents that pulled out all the stops to defeat me so that I could see what they did and plan for it. When you hit real faction-combat your not going to see anything other than no-holds-barred fighting.

The use of consumables can drastically change a battle, and thats the reason they were put into the game. A smart player will make use of the advantages they can find. If you cannot anticipate and react to that, then maybe your not as good as you think you are. I disagree completely with your comment about needing a potion or bomb. In my opinion if you cannot deal with those situations, then maybe your not as good as you think and could use some more practice.
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#40 Jun 05 2005 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Using potions?

cheating : no
honor : none

You can use potions in duels and a really don't care since I hate duelling but I don't think using potions is honorful and a waste of good money. (Pnwing someone without is a lot better.)
You can't really say how, but for me using health/mana potions in a duel is "different" then using crafted armor. While crafted armor only saves you a hit or two more then usual, health potions replenish a nice amount of health.

And then, why do you use potions in duel? When you lose you havn't lost anything while using potions only wastes stuff you could use in a real fight.

Still I don't think using buff potions is wrong since it would be a waste to deslect them, right? ;)

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#41 Jun 05 2005 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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i dont think it really makes a difference. if u cant use potions that you shouldn't be allowed to use armor and weapons.
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#42 Jun 05 2005 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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Someone who's chosen to invest in a tradeskill has taken time away from questing and fighting to expand their character in a different direction. Most likely, they have also taken resources from their character that could otherwise have been used to upgrade gear and put it into developing their tradeskill.

And if they did not chose to tradeskill, they may have spent money on potions in the AH or elsewhere which could have otherwise been spent on better gear.

To dual a character fairly, you must take into account all of the resources that character has. If you are looking for a limited dual, make sure to specify that before the dual. If I ever do accept a dual that's popped on me without a prior conversation (unlikely, as I consider that behavior EXTREMELY rude), I would absolutely use all the resources at my disposal.

In my case, I've split my time among several characters for the betterment of all of my characters. Had I just worked with one character, she'd be a significantly higher level. However, I chose to advance several characters so that I would have access to the creations of most of the tradeskills.

It's unreasonable to expect someone to read your mind as to what YOU would consider fair in a dual. If you don't spell it out first, anything that doesn't violate the EULA should be expected and planned for. If that doesn't make you happy, either discuss the dual first or don't dual at all.

EDIT: And to those who say it's a waste of resources to use potions or engineering products... that should be the other person's problem, not yours. What does it matter to you if they want to waste their resources?

Edited, Sun Jun 5 22:41:48 2005 by Evenstar

Edited, Sun Jun 5 23:14:24 2005 by Evenstar
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#43 Jun 06 2005 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
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oh this thread made me chuckle.

so i'm not allowed to use the products of my labour either through trawling dungeons and using the gold to buy items such as potions or spending hours levelling a tradeskill to create consumable items when i COULD be trawling dungeons for gold.

oh well i'm sorry, i'll certainly not use my Exploding Sheep or Health Potion as long as you don't use that Staff of Jordan you bought off of the AH.

Stupid line of thought? you're not kidding and so is trying to preclude any other item that someone has worked for to get.

if you want a truly fair fight get into nothing but your keks, go knuckle to knuckle and see who wins and who catches neumonia.

Edit: suffered a minor attack of amnesia

Edited, Mon Jun 6 04:33:41 2005 by Muggins
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#44 Jun 06 2005 at 5:34 AM Rating: Good
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The only rules that apply to duelling are those agreed by the duellists prior to the event. No prior discussion means everything goes.

Anything else is whining by a sore loser who is in denial when he or she should be saying 'That was a good battle, how do you think I could defeat somebody using that technique against me in the future?'. It doesn't matter if it's a potion, a trinket or a talent that defeats you - learn from it and adapt your style or you will be defeated again and again.
#45 Jun 06 2005 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Give 'er.

You use potions? Give 'er.

You use engineering gadgets? Give 'er.

You use other things that aren't normal to ones inventory (Crystal Charges)? Give 'er.

If you're a horde shaman and you decide to drop a windfury totem for your warrior who is duelling a paladin? Give 'er.

If you're a (insert class with castable buff) and you decide to (insert buff name) for your (duelist) whi is duelling a paladin? Give 'er.

And if (a really big IF) I can beat you...well good for me. If you stomp me...well good for you.

It all depends on how much you want to win. Using anything/everything (found in-game) to enhance your character is legal. Using bots (teleport/STR bots) is not...

Using specialty items in a duel are more viable than using them in PvP IMO because you won't lose the buff after you lose. It is a money sink to buy potions (unless you have a great guildie) but if I invest the time to obtain the gold and buy the potions, I'm going to use them whenever I want. Same goes for my weapons...I spent months farming arcane crystals...you can't tell me to NOT use my arcanite reaper...in fact...if you say I can't use my reaper, I might very well sharpen the sucker with a +8 sharpening stone and then hit you with it.

* For all you paladins, the reckoning talent in the protection tree is awesome. Rogues drop like flies...

Edited, Tue Jun 7 12:03:04 2005 by Hoyanas
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#46 Jun 06 2005 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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My 2 cents worth:
A participant in a WoW dual should be able to use anything at their disposal unless something different is agreed by the parties in advance. How duals are or were conducted in the real world has nothing to do with it.

"All's fair in love and war." In the real world, the rules of warfare are determined by the victor after the war is over. The victor then holds trials to punish those on the losing side who violated the rules.
#47 Jun 07 2005 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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There is a big diffence between duel and PvP!
In PvP you die if u lose.. U don't die in duel.
A duel is practice, and see if you can beet this certain player with your skills as the chosen class.

Before a duel, you can see if your opponent has a blue blacksmithing armor or not. You can't see whether he has 1,2 or three sheep bombs. And you don't know if he'll use them, or not or when he will.

A potion has the ability of surprise, if your opponent is nearly dead and instant gets 1/2-3/4 hp or full.

And to those who said warlocks had health stone, i NEVER used made them before the duel, always during it. Else it's unfair for the opponent!
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#48 Jun 07 2005 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Are Blacksmits allowed to use their crafted armour and weapons in battle? Are Tailors and Leatherworkers allowed to use their armours in battle? Then why can an alchemist not use the potions they make in battle, since that is part of their skill tree.

It gets muckier when you are not an alchemist and get potions from someone else, but if I am an alchemist, I will use my postions in a duel and if I'm an engineer I will use bombs and other devices in the duel, because these are part of my skill tree outside of my class.
#49 Jun 07 2005 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I consider anything I wouldn't hesitate to use in a real fight fair game. I will not hesitate to bandage, Blind, use Engineering cooldowns, etc, as they have no real cost--but I will certainly hesitate to use a major heal. If others feel differently, thats fine, but I have no interest in dueling them if I have to spend gold to compete.
#50 Jun 07 2005 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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The idea for a duel is supposed to be player skill VS another players skill. ONLY using what skills your class has. no potions. no proffessions. nothing but the skills/spells/talents your class has.

Its not open PVP, because your on the same faction. Its a test of skill between 2 people. not how much money you have, just plain skill with what skills you have.
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#51 Jun 07 2005 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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The matter is rather simple. Major professions generally cost more money than they make. If someone invested in alchemy, they are spending gold making potions they could have spent on equipment. Their gold is being used against you in potions, your gold is being used against them in equipment. I see nothing wrong with that. It is not cheating if you duel me with better equipment you spent more money on.

No duel is fair. Some characters have more money, better equipment, stronger builds. A test of skill is using every available resource to your advantage. It takes skill to know what potion to use and when to use it.

That said, I would not waste the money on a duel.
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