[dev1010] Job Adjustments (4/22/2011)Follow

DEF is pretty neglible at that level, especially in the realm of maybe 50-60 difference after gear. Evasion is also not really that important on either job because neither are going to get to the point of being able to reliably evade using DD gear. A WAR may have higher HP, and a slight advantage in stats, which will lead to a small % lead in overall survivability, but RNG is not a woe is me job, it is not the soft little muppet that people were trying to make it out to be, Id wager that a WAR would last longer, but that length is going to be eclipsed by the fact that a healer is going to be running out of mana either way. While the healer might last 5-10 seconds longer with the WAR(2 more big cures), at that point (7-8 minutes into a fight) your talking about maybe a 1-2% longer duration.

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 7:16pm by rdmcandie

Coming late to this discussion, but the conditions were not the same on the two tests: your wife used more MP on the second test. Given unlimited HP, any job could win the fight against any mob.

You keep saying pull hate, which means they have taken it from the tank. A RNG is not going to die any more often then a WAR who pulls hate, infact the RNG has a higher chance o living because of its weaker DD output in close range when PULLING hate. The reason being is that a mob is going to hit the RNG for more than the RNG hits it, resulting in an overall drop in hate. Meaning that after several hits the mob will lose interest and move to the next person on the hate list, and judging by your test a RNG can take a mob hitting it for a long *** time, long enough for someone else to pull hate from it, or for it to give up and move on. Meaning that a hate dump is not required based on survivability, the only reason a hate dump would be required is to allow a RNG to continue to sit at range and not have the mob run to it, causing close range DD to chase, and lose DoT time by slow reaction. But as I said before you can bring a SCH to slow the rate of hate accumulation (should save about 10-15 seconds before pulling hate and in abyssea with fights taking 1-2 minutes with open DDing that is a generous amount of time.) or bring a THF to pretty much negate the RNG's hate by using Accomplice (or w.e it is) keeping the mob in melee range. Or bring a PLD to tank with the additional VE spikes to hold a mobs attention over capped CE of a RNG.

A hate dump is not needed but it would be nice so you do not require one of those 3 to keep the mob from running to range for as long as possible.

Again all you have proved is that a WAR does more damage up front then a RNG which is a "no ****" statement you have not proven anything but that.

What we (well, "I", I'm not speaking for anyone else, here) are saying is that in big fights WAR's melee DD advantage isn't going to help them survive (and hence why while DD prowess can help with survival capability in certain cases, the two aren't synonymous).

The only reason WAR fared better in your test is that they weren't getting hit for as long, because they had already killed the mob before the WHM ran out of MP. WAR's survivability is only greater on weak wussy mobs like Gangly Gean that nobody cares about anyway, and even then only if the WAR sits there doing nothing until the RNG's WHM can "catch up". It's not that WAR is more survivable; it's that it had less total damage incoming in the first place. Run your same test on Glavoid, or Amphitrite, or Rani (or, better yet, don't--you'd be wasting a pop set) to see what I mean.

There was never any debate that WAR is better at slaughtering fodder by the truckload--but that wasn't the question. The question (or, rather, statement to test) is: "War and rng have the same ability to survive when they pull hate".

Consider the following scenario for a second. Let's say that in a given hard fight with a setup of WHM WAR RNG (we'll call the first fight Fight A), a RNG has used a Gnostic's Drink and--for the sake of argument--will never pull hate off of the WAR, who will always have hate. In Fight B, the WAR has used the magical Gnostic's Drink, so the WAR can DD to his heart's content, but the RNG will be tanking the entire time. Assuming the same damage output of the RNG and WAR in both fights A and B, and identical behavior from the mob, ask yourself the following question:

In which fight will the WHM run out of MP faster? Those of us who say they have the same ability to survive when they pull hate say the WHM will use MP at the same rate in both fights A and B. Those of us who say RNG has weaker survivability when they have hate than WAR must say that WHM B will run out of MP faster than WHM A, otherwise the word survivability doesn't even mean anything.

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At any rate, the reason RNG needs enmity reduction (of whatever variety) is not because they are fragile little buttercups. It's because making the melee DD chase the mob around trying to hit it after the RNG WSes from the sweet spot is freakin' annoying.

Evidently you are unaware that 5% reduction in enmity is a 5% reduction in the time it takes to cap. It should take a good RNG about 4 WS rounds to cap enmity (at range less at close range and evis or rampage) in 30 seconds+ (thanks lack of haste) so that is 120 seconds or 2 minutes with a 5% reduction to enmity generation you are looking at a 6 seconds more time per 2 minutes which is 20% of a WS, provided you are able to hit the damage high enough, lack of a MH crit WS could result in more time spent capping.

From experience id say a good RNG will cap in about 2-2.5 minutes, at that point he might pull hate. Depending on the strength of your tank, and their ability to avoid damage, you could see an additional 7-8 seconds before you are at serious risk of pulling hate, when the threshold is so fine that even an utsu shadow will cause a target change. Thus you are looking at a total of a 10-15 second on average increase to Ranged DD time before you can be expected to be the next target. Thanks to a 5% decrease in your per action enmity.

By the time it actually happens (read 2:15 seconds into the fight) the mob should be dead. I can't think of a single NM that takes longer than 1-2 minutes to kill when all the DD are going out. You know after getting procs when you actually start to kill the NM. Besides as I mentioned earlier RNG isn't even that bad of a melee DD right now either, when/if it does pull a mobs attention it would likely be able to take it out with 1-2evis or rampage if your DD take longer than 40 seconds to get into range (which is terrible.)

Mob moving shouldn't affect melee DD anyhow, unlock and run with the mob you can continue melee DPS and if it takes longer that 20-25 seconds to reach the RNG tell them to stop running away, and run to the melee.

Long story short, in a good group, with smart people even if a RNG pulls hate in a fight that last long enough to do so, it shouldn't matter anyhow. As the RNG should be running into the melee, and the melee running to the RNG unlocked from mob and still dealing melee DPS.

Way to pull arbitrary numbers out of the ***. Many Heroes mobs will not be dead in 2mins, quit talking about Vision/Scars **** designed for level 80-85 cap players. At the current 90 cap, stuff like Pankorator/Apademak/T3 VNMs/Wyrms are the current "challenge" mobs and they won't be zerged down as fast.

Anyone who says RNG isn't "that bad of a DD" either hasn't played the class, has a case of "big numbers means they're doing good" or is simply ignorant of how slow ranged attacks can be. You even mentioning Evis/Rampage on Heroes tier mobs is laughable. You've now put yourself in AOE range as a subpar wannabe THF/WAR making your purpose for being there completely compromised.

I recall similar logic being used back when DRK was in serious trouble. "Just use dual axes, then you'll be fine! You don't need any patches to fix the obvious flaws with your class. No, no silly DRK."

When a RNG causes a mob to move, it puts people at risk of being hit with stuff they shouldn't be hit by. The low enmity ceiling makes it stupidly easy to do so currently. From Rasheph (easy heroes NM) to stuff like Maere (mob moves, Nightmare hits backline, game over) where moving the mob could lead to a fatal wipe, anyone who makes the mob move lowers the DPS of the frontline and makes themselves a burden on the support.

Telling the DD to play grabass with a mob you're dragging all over the place warrants a job fix.

Only a ****** runs around with a mob chasing them in a groups (unless kite tanking obviously). If RNG pulls hate or anyone at range does, they should run to the melee, always. Less time spent as you said playing grabass the better. RNG isn't liked at the moment its not a top fight job but neither are 14 others so just quit ********* It is fine just how it is, abyssea is the issue not the job.

But that's not what happens. It runs over to the RNG and out of range of the melees. If you are chasing a mob it's going to stay out of range until it stops and you catch up. So what happens is it runs over to the RNG smacks him and then runs back to the next person on the hate list while everyone else tries to chase it down and it becomes impossible to keep the mob in one spot. It also pisses off the melee because they start missing WS on their x hit builds, loosing TP when they use a WS just as the mob decides it wants to hit the RNG, and wasting JA timers (if your not hitting the mob while a JA is on you are wasting it)

It's starting to look like you and rdmcandie have never seriously played a melee job seeing how you seem to lack basic knowledge about the mechanics of melee DDing.



Edited, May 1st 2011 5:46am by Lobivopis

ftfy

But these days THF is pretty much just ninja imitator who happens to have TH yes. Still puts them above DRK as a DD though. That might change next update however. But I have DRK and a half completed Caladbolg so I can jump on the bandwagon.



It's different in that BLM is useful and RNG is not.




Edited, May 1st 2011 6:21am by Lobivopis

More like it's damage output is so low compared to other jobs that it's not worth putting up with the mob control issues.

Edited, May 1st 2011 6:34am by Lobivopis

So what if he continued doing damage he would continue to stay at the top of the hate list longer.

Again the point, if a RNG pulls hate his reduced damage output with the mob smacking him will allow a MNK to get hate back through CE bleeding.

Irrelevant, and because of abyssea. Never saw anyone complain about RNG when it was one of the highest DD jobs before abyssea.