[dev1010] Job Adjustments (4/22/2011)Follow

Don't forget MA Crit WS issues, which are also solved by a RNG meleeing instead of shooting. I mean if BRD and RDM are so
awesome (which they aren't but they are easily 85% of a big DD) why can't RNG be awesome too since it can equip the same **** and use the same WS. (better if you include Barrage as a source of close range TP gain).

Bleh, stupid power outage killing half my day. Anyway, another fault with the earlier "test" is that there's possible level variance between the spawns and the fact that no two fights will be the same given the choices in spells and TP moves the mob could've made.

Except currently any job with a Multi Crit WS with the right Atma selection is a pretty solid DD. RDM BRD WHM all melee better than DRK and SAM for example. Basically you are gimping yourself if you do not play by the new rules. Welcome to melee fantasy 11.

SCH can give you -5 enmty for 3 minutes. Please tell me how is this going to help substantially a RNG. Yep, they'll cap enmity a wee bit later... Now what? Animus Minuo and Animus Augeo are placebo buffs that I use when I don't have anything better to do, and only remotely useful if done at the very beginning of the fight. Those are not enmity control tools, are enmity control jokes.

I think it has more to do with you trying to test the difference between two things, by limiting the things used to what they have in common...Are you really so stupid you don't see a problem here? Not only that, but you have no ******* clue what survivability is, let alone how to test it.

Finally, I thought people were going to let rdm continue spouting obvious nonsense without calling him on it.

Animus spells are junk and serve no purpose other than being something unique to SCH. The "threat control" won't do sh*t because enmity is so easy to cap in Abyssea and you can cast it till you're blue in the face and it wont fix RNG nevermind any other DD taking hate. Outside Abyssea? Same deal. Animus spells are about as useful as Dokumori: Ichi or Absorb-CHR.

Anywho...

What I've learned from this thread are that most people are ignorant regarding how Ranger works, just want to stir the pot for lulz or are suggesting things that are so silly that they make the point that the class needs some native enmity sheds.

Firstly is the argument that RNG can use evisceration if they want to "do damage". Ok, fair enough. You could probably get some passable numbers using dagger given the broken aspects of atma and crit hits in general but that puts you in aoe range, your DoT will be pathetic and you aren't ranger anymore moreso a horrible THF imitator.

Unless you can use Evisceration from 14' away and I simply overlooked that fact.

Even when the game leaves Abyssea, jobs like DRK and PUP (whipping boys) are going to be better as a functional class than Ranger will. DRK will be a middle-tier DD capable of doing its job while RNG will still be stuck dragging monsters around and shooting slower than a DD meleeing in full Hecatomb.





Edited, Apr 28th 2011 12:22pm by SparthosofLakshmi

Well PUP has always been pretty strong, but Abyssea has made it one of the most powerful DDs in the entire game. 6hit crit WS, strong weapons, and big-numbered, hateless, unlimited mp nukes make it very good. The problem is most PUPs suck.

DRK just got one hell of an update however, making them a top tier DD again. At this point, if DRK ever did get Insurgency made into a crit WS, they would probably surpass WAR by a decent margin until you bring in more outside buffing than is common these days.

sigh you are totally misunderstanding what was argued above. In a comparison between your WAR and RNG in which you used no defensive tools other than base stats (evasion, defense, parry) Your WAR survived because you killed the mob in 4-5 minutes, where as your RNG did not survive because it was unable to kill before the WHM went OOM. It lasted several minutes longer (I think it was 3 based off your numbers). The only discernible difference between your two jobs was kill speed. Which proves only one thing, that WAR is better at close range combat than your RNG (duh.)

They have near identical survivability stats, war i slightly ahead but to no real degree, which is shown by the fact your RNG survived 7-8 minutes. In your scenario the only difference in surviving was that you killed the mob on WAR before the WHM ran out of mana. (which was 3 minutes later).

Furthering the silly result you determined was that you are comparing WAR in its ideal damage location against a RNG in its secondary damage location.

Your test did not prove WAR survives better your test proved it can kill with enough time to spare for the WHM to not run out of Mana.

Kill speed in general is a survivability tool. Even for a defensive juggernaut like RDM, a RDM that can kill in 10 minutes is less likely to run into mana issues or pathing mistakes, or mis cast than a RDM who kills in 15. It is a highly valid point to consider when discussing survivabilty between equal terms (ie a RDM and a RDM) but you are comparing a class that excels in close range damage, vs one that is average in close range damage. Which greatly skews the results in surviving via kill speed. As shown by your report on the scenario.

For the last time all you proved was that WAR can kill before a WHM goes OOM at close range, if you want to run a real test don't try and kill the mob, go out ad get a low level Gaxe, and a low level set of Daggers or Axes to minimize the damage while keeping parry in effect. Then determine which one dies faster. If both survive until the WHM goes OOM then both have equal RELATIVE survivability, if one dies before the WHM goes OOM then that job has weaker RELATIVE survivability.

Apples + Oranges = ****** up answers.

The correct answer is to stop digging deeper and try to walk away from it with dignity.

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 5:45pm by Return1

I would also like to note that this issue is only relevant at all in Abyssea, due to the death of the VE+CE tank. Tanking in abyssea is who is dealing the most damage (CE) with no care in the world for using VE to keep a slight lead over others. A PLD for example would use Flash on cool down to spike its hate higher and higher, this meant even though people would cap CE (which happened all the time) the PLD would be able to maintain hate on a mob.

This is why NIN had trouble because it lacked the required VE tools that allowed it to spike hate. RDM was a solid tank because it had several forms of CE and VE builders, which is why NIN/DRK was popular since it used the same VE spike abilities RDM did such as posion, and blind.

Essentially now you have all kinds of jobs riding the CE edge, and eventually they all cap, and as the mob deals damage (and lowers CE) certain ones will maintain higher hate levels than others. This is why MNK is so delicious in a counterstance mode because more often than not when it is hit, it counters and prevents that enmity loss. However for a job such as RNG who is not getting hit by incidental AoE, the times when a MNK takes damage but does not counter the RNG could become the next target on the hate list.

More often then not though the mob will be dead by the time that happens. The MNK tank will have been keeping hate through procs and when all procs are registered it will have a sizeable lead over the generic DD and the mobs will die in 1-2 minutes often before everyone has capped CE.

But if you take to long to kill the mob when going all out DD (see such things as people healing the mob by mistake etc) then you do run the risk of riding that fine hate line after a couple minutes.

Now what does this mean in the sense does RNG need a threat dump, yes and no, realistically it doesn't because more often then not the issue will never arise that it will be in a hate race with a tank, PLD tanks will have a sufficient VE lead, while MNK (or other CE based tank) will have a sizeable enough CE lead in order to tank a mobs life expectancy.

I think RNG needs one not because its survival method is weak, but because it needs to be able to keep range on a mob to be optimal. RNG is in no way a weak little sponge (as evidenced by your own testing) It just lacks the up close focus, however that being said, my RDM does about 85% of WAR's DRG's and such on the front line with Evis spam (that is being a DD and not buffing others but myself. when I carry buff cycles it falls to about 70-75%) A RNG should be able to do this just as well, which will keep its DPS higher than running or ******** like a little girl. Long enough to get hit in the face 2-3 times to bleed CE back to the MNK.

Or you could bring a SCH (5% CE generation can slow you enough to save you a dozen or so seconds before getting the mobs attention, which is nearly another full WS cycle and 10% of a mobs expected lifetime) a THF (who can take 50% of your CE and dump it away.) Or if it stresses you out having to resort to a 2K Rampage or Evis a couple minutes into a fight for a dozen seconds, over a 3K w/e the **** non Multi hit crit WS comes from a bow is now adays, bring a PLD.

TLDR.

The reasons that RNG needs a enmity dump are not because it is weak or can't deal decent numbers up front, the reason they need one is too keep the jobs identity as a ranged attacker, and to prevent the mob from running away from your heavy hitting close range DD. The issue is not on the RNG's damage or survivability (it can fare well in both regards in abyssea) the issue is with the current CE heavy tanking we have these days, in the sense that the hate line gets to the point where the only way to tank is to lose hate and let the mob smack someone else so you can get the lead again.