[dev1010] Job Adjustments (4/22/2011)Follow

Actually, taking a beating and not falling down is the quintessential embodiment of survival. Killing something more quickly is the quintessential embodiment of damage output. You don't test endurance by seeing who can run the fastest; you test it by seeing who can run the farthest. It sounds like you're actually arguing that WAR and RNG have the same survivability, but WAR does more damage.

Obviously for a solo effort both factors are important, but if you pull out that dictionary and look up "quintessential," I think you'll find that you're abusing the term a bit.

Kill speed is unfortunately part of survival in XI. The fact you took a WAR/SAM, who can put Hasso to use with a WHM as support with further Haste and cures, against a RNG, who can use the same or even benefit from melee Haste in the same way while dealing with damage penalties on their bread and butter moves, is basically asking for the result you got.

Statistically, if you wanna say RNG has less DEF/VIT/Parry/Evasion, then fine, I doubt you'd get much of an argument there in terms of survivability comparisons. Though, let's not pretend there's such a dramatic difference like the WAR takes 100 damage to the RNG's 1000, especially if Berserk is in play. Neither can really compare to Utsu or the combined benefits of Blink/Phalanx/Stoneskin defensively, so both kinda lose this game.

Now, pick a mob that you can gravity and kite around indefinitely, one that the WAR should never get the attention of. Death shouldn't be much of a concern here, but it's not much of a stretch to say the RNG would also kill this mob a hell of a lot faster since they won't have to deal with latency issues and the "out of range" crap. Kited fights are actually pretty rare in the game now, so I can see how RNG might feel unwanted as a physical offensive outlet, but they're hardly super gimp, either.

The atmas the whm had are irrelevant(allure, MM, and rescuer). The crux of the whole thing was to put both jobs in the exact same situation under the exact same conditions to see which fairs better. Kill speed wasn't a factor of this test so I didn't keep track of exact times. If both had survived the fight, regardless of how long the fight took, I would have been satisfied that both jobs have roughly the same survival abilities. As it was the war killed the nm in around 4-5 minutes(wife was at about 50% mp after the kill) and the nm killed me on rng in about 6-7 minutes(wife was out of mp). Again I have no actual times as it wasn't a factor for my little test.

You misunderstand me. I only say the kill speed wasn't a factor in my test. I realize that had I been able to kill it faster on rng before my wife ran out of mp that I would have won the fight. I say that kill speed isn't a factor because I wasn't testing which job could kill it the fastest, only which job could win the fight at all under the same conditions.

They are very relevant. If your WHM had been better outfitted (only MM belongs there, btw), you wouldn't be here saying that your WAR had better "survivability" than your RNG; you'd be here saying that they're equal because both of them were able to win without ever coming close to wiping.

Honestly, the only true competitive "test" of survival can come in what I call a Tetris scenario -- place yourself into a scenario that cannot be ultimately "won", and see how far you can go without being "Game Overed".

Being able to slaughter Kirin in <30 seconds doesn't really tell me your group has good survivability against Kirin (even if that's what it ends up translating to in a literal sense); it tells me that you're able to slaughter Kirin before survivability even becomes a factor.



Yes, it was, even though I would consider it the lesser factor. Tell me this -- if you were able to kill it on RNG in 4-5 minutes like you did with WAR, wouldn't you be here accepting that they have equal "survivability" since they both won?

However, killing speed wasn't the primary factor of your survivability. Your WHM not being able to support you indefinitely (on both jobs) was. This basically put a time limit on your fight, which was why your WAR was able to win whereas your RNG was not.

Even if kill speed wasn't what you were trying to test, it was really the only notable piece of information that came out of it. Nevermind the fact that pretty much anyone would have guessed already that a lone WAR DD would kill pretty much anything faster than a lone RNG DD would.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 4:37pm by Fynlar

As long as the War and the Rng had the exact same quality and quantity of tools at thier disposal it is a valid test of survivability. Your argument is that had I a better Whm, my Rng wouldn't have died in the test. That is the same as saying that had you an entire alliance of Whm's with you, you could have killed it on your level 65 Bst so your 65 Bst has the same ability to survive as a lvl 90 Bst with the same amount of Whm's. The ability to pump out an infinite amount of cures was not the test. The test was whether or not a War and a Rng could kill the same mobs under the exact same conditions.

Could I have survived the fight on my Rng if my wife had the best Whm gear/atma's/whatever else? Possibly. However, as I said, that is irrelevant. The fact that my War was able to survive while my Rng was not under the exact same conditions is proof that my War has a higher ability to survive a fight then my Rng under these conditions.

What weapons did you use?
What atmas did the rng and war have?

I'm not a rng, but don't they both get rampage?
Did they both have RR/Apoc/GH or other some such DD atmas?

354 axe skill war
325 axe skill rng

Is that really that big a deal skill wise?

255 evasion rng
138 parry skill rng (sam sub)
310 evasion war
305 parry skill war

GH and RR would mean you probably get 100+ dex and agl

Did you melee in ranged acc/att and other some such rng type gear? or did you use standard melee job type gear?

War wins, but I would think that rng would at least be able to gear standard melee oriented and appropriate atmas and do fairly decent with a decent kill speed. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 4:38pm by Mohit

Read up, no ja's were used as using a ja that the other didn't have would invalidate the test.

OK, yeah, your test was a total waste of time. But hey, some people dig that, I guess.



That

Bring a SCH or THF.

Or they could just go back to how enmity worked before they ninja patched cumulative enmity into the game mid 2006.



RNG is not a solid DD. Even a BRD can out damage a RNG by a large margin. Hell, even a dagger wielding RDM/NIN can using melee alone. (note: I'm not saying RDM/NIN with daggers is good, just that RNG is that bad)



Edited, Apr 27th 2011 8:23pm by Lobivopis

That argument only holds water if the RNG has his own private COR that follows him everywhere. for 99.9% RNGs this is not the case.

No, if there's no COR in the group, there's no reason for the RNG to be competing with a COR that doesn't even exist. It's not as if you ever compete for a slot, when there absolutely no reason not to bring 18 people.

And you're still ignoring the fact that, if a RNG melees for TP, it ignores the sweet spot problem, ignores the monster movement problem, ignores the "aoe killed the mages problem, and ignores the Haste> ranged attack problem. ALL of RNG's problems in this thread!

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 11:36pm by louispv