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#1 Apr 05 2019 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lots of threads around this on the official boards that usually derail, I'm aiming for brief: Necro dot revamp (and necro in the group game as kind of a tag-along subject that isn't necessarily served by a dot revamp) appears to be a big task or unsolvable pretzel applying the methods used successfully for other classes. So what if we looked at it in a totally different way?


I mean, can we get (or at least) approach a positive result without doing the dot revamp at all?


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I'll give a couple of "out there" examples, but really I'm thinking the playerbase could come up with something doable (and better than my two quick concepts) if we think outside of the dots.



1. Some form of AA ability that was a "channeled casting mode"... like a many, many repeat single target rain nuke --maybe it splurts up in power the longer you run it... Use the ability, spell bar is greyed out until you exit the channeled casting mode. --or something. The point being it wouldn't have to be a debuff, and it would be better on a huge HP target than weaving sets of dots. Sure, you become "one button" for direct DPS on raids, but that allows playing with the other spell slots in between channels?



2. This is possibly more of a group game thing... but if focus effects can be dropped on a character and instantly mod % of damage done, mana cost and duration... why not have an AA "stance" toggle. Default mode does nothing, as-is on live. "Burst" stance clicked on and your dots do 3x the damage for 3x the mana for 1/3 the duration (or whatever math would be needed to make at least a range of necro dots bursty --the goal wouldn't be to cast that many dots on a single mob in group play so it only needs to make some of them viable). --maybe you do a "raid" stance that is only activated when in raid of at least 18 people that is more generous on the mods... so 5X the damage for regular mana and duration (or whatever actual balanced math would be).
#2 Apr 08 2019 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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Umm.. whats the problem? I don't play a necro so what are you addressing here? Is the current state of the necro that they're under-powered, over-powered, not needed for groups, not needed for raids, or what?

Have to admit I don't keep up with the official forums because there's just too much to decipher. A lot of posts assume you spend two hours a day keeping up with all the threads and that sure isn't me. Honestly, it's why I post almost exclusively here. Of course, I could just be posting to myself and a small core of "allakhazam-ers", but it's a lot easier to keep up with 5 new posts a day than 500.
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#3 Apr 08 2019 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sippin wrote:
Umm.. whats the problem? I don't play a necro so what are you addressing here? Is the current state of the necro that they're under-powered, over-powered, not needed for groups, not needed for raids, or what?

Have to admit I don't keep up with the official forums because there's just too much to decipher. A lot of posts assume you spend two hours a day keeping up with all the threads and that sure isn't me. Honestly, it's why I post almost exclusively here. Of course, I could just be posting to myself and a small core of "allakhazam-ers", but it's a lot easier to keep up with 5 new posts a day than 500.


Couple things:

Necro1: They have a disadvantage in the group game, because all their damage comes from DoTs, so damage takes too long to apply, and then mob is dead before DoTs even run out. Waste of mana/too little DPS.

Necro2: The still-present debuff slot issue on raids. Why in the HELL can't they get their DoT revamp (read: consolidation) which all the other classes already got. Solves the debuff slot issue, and solves the "necros need to apply more DoTs than they have spell gems" issue.

Forumquest: I check over there at least twice a day. It's not that bad. You simply have to get good at just ignoring the threads which you don't care about. And if you check regularly, it's not hard to remember that you don't care about thread A, so don't click on thread A ;) Fortunately, for where I'm at in EQ these days, I don't care about most of the threads there, so I just ignore most of the content. And sometimes, you may keep up with a thread for a bit, and then it gets to the point where everything's been said, but they just keep posting. And THEN the thread moves to /ignore. The "memes" thread is a good example. It was pretty funny early on. And then it evolved into nothing but "inside baseball" posts among the top guilds... a) snore, b) I don't know their inside jokes anyway.
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#4 Apr 08 2019 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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The slowness of DOT damage in groups has ALWAYS been a necro gripe. I kinda thought it's mollified by the necro pet being a good-ish tank (or maybe these days just a backup tank) and the necro's ability to pull because of FD. Personally whenever I formed a pickup group (which admittedly is a lot less often today) I never cared much about the "perfect mix" and if a necro responded he'd get invited unless we already had 2 in the group. But I can see with the difficulty of getting into a pickup group these days, the necro might be at a distinct disadvantage. Problem is it's part of essential "necrotic" identity to be the master of DOT damage and I don't see a ready fix for this, fundamentally, without changing the essential character of the class. Necros can't nuke like wizards---cuz they're not wizards!

Don't necros dish out great dps against undead? Kinda like the paladin, they need to focus their attacks on undead, and join groups hunting undead.

I definitely see the problem, though, because druid DOTs are quite powerful and I use them a ton in soloing singles but they're close to worthless in groups. I do like the fire line of druid dots which start off with a strong dd. The cold dot FINISHES with a solid burst of debuff and damage but since it runs almost 2 minutes, it's pretty useless in any group that is capable of handling the trash mobs they're hunting.

So druids feel necro pain... to some extent. But we got aoe quad and quint dd spells so we don't feel it all that badly! Smiley: sly

Just remember it could be worse. I remember running raids in the old days and I'd have to assign necros to mana-pump the clerics all raid long and have to handle the back door complaining I'd get from them in direct tells lamenting how they could do so much more damage if they weren't forced to constantly convert their HPs into cleric mana.

Edited, Apr 8th 2019 3:39pm by Sippin
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#5 Apr 09 2019 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I play a necro on TLP, and live. I play a shaman on TLP and live.

The shaman dot revamp IMO was a disaster. I rarely dps anymore in a group because it's a total waste of mana. I felt way more powerful before - now if I want to do damage I lose too much mana for needed heals.

I hope they never revamp necro dots.

Edited, Apr 9th 2019 11:12pm by Taninger
#6 Apr 10 2019 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a druid, I feel totally the opposite. The DoT revamp has allowed me to actually contribute some decent DPS, while still healing and debuffing.
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Michone, 115 Troll Shadowknight
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Snookims Whinslow, 112 Erudite Enchanter, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
<Inisfree>, Tunare (Seventh Hammer!)
#7 Apr 10 2019 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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I guess it depends on playstyle and group dps. Sure, dots continue to do damage while you heal and debuff. But consider our three class of dots:

Magic dot does 13k damage every 6 seconds for 54 secs
Fire dot does 27k damage every 6 secs for 18 secs
Cold dot does 6500 damage every 6 secs for 96 secs, and if the spell lasts full time, it switches to a more lethal version that does 15k damage every 6 secs for another 24secs.

You got a lot of groups where it takes 2 minutes to kill one mob, other than maybe a named??

The fire dot is kinda worth it, altho it's got a longer cast time. 3 secs (2.2 with focus.)

Even when I solo singles, I usually just use dd's altho I might throw on the fire and magic dots since every tick is like a modest dd. The cold dot, I might use it for variety but even soloing I rarely see it go full-length. And TBH usually when I solo I'm quint-kiting and then it's all aoe dd's, altho I might throw a dot (usually magic) on a mob that seems to be a lot healthier than the rest of the pack.



Edited, Apr 10th 2019 3:40pm by Sippin
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#8 Apr 10 2019 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I mostly molo w/merc, and it takes generally 40-70 seconds to down a mob, depending where I'm hunting.

I use the fire and magic dots, and if I get a timely GoM proc, then Wrath. If the SHTF, I just cast em all right away (on multiple mobs, which is generally the definition of TSHTF ;)

I've reached the point where I don't put nearly as much emphasis on efficiency with mana. OOC regen, and constant use of whatever our mana regen spell is called, keeps things moving along just fine. But what I DO like, is that I'm doing some decent DPS while I'm healing and doing everything else. Our nukes just do too little damage to be constantly casting them over and over. I'd rather have my nails ripped out.

What I'd like to see is our nukes get their own "revamp". Let them do 4-5 times the damage they do now, with commensurate mana usage, and lengthen the recast times.

If I were fighting in full groups, I'd likely skip the DoTs, except when I get a GoM proc, in which case I'd cast a Wrath. And I'd have crappy DPS. Reason #23 I don't bother looking for groups.
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Tatanka Wolfdancer, 115 Wood Elf Druid, 9 x 300+ Master Artisan, 7 maxed trophies (dang research! :)
Michone, 115 Troll Shadowknight
Anaceup Mysleeves, 115 Erudite Mage, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
Snookims Whinslow, 112 Erudite Enchanter, 2 x 300 Master Artisan
<Inisfree>, Tunare (Seventh Hammer!)
#9 Apr 10 2019 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Necro gripe thread turns into druid theory thread lol!

Druid dps is very dependent on focii and burns. I could never quint-kite without turning on all my burn aa's and skills. They must increase damage output by 5-10x at least. With the current HP levels of the highest zone trash mobs, without burns, the mobs drop like 1% per cast for a solo druid and that is very very discouraging.

Edited, Apr 10th 2019 6:23pm by Sippin
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#10 Apr 21 2019 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Necros are fine solo. At least for ages on progression... someone soloing necro 95+ may have different input?

Necros are lost in the group game according to many posts in both progression and live forums. Dot revamp won't necessarily address this at all. The sum of changes are making the entire game (early progression to modern era) so trivial fast DPS bursty that unless you can charm undead (the grand tactic in pre-OoW progression) you aren't doing a whole lot.

Necros are becoming a rare raid main according to many posts in both progression and live forums. Debuff slot issues and the need to weave multiple sets for DPS some say is not good enough.


I think that briefly captures it?



I'm a solo necro... I just want this addressed so the necro community can move on from it.

#11 Apr 22 2019 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hate to say it but any class that solos as well as a necro does, it's kind of reasonable that they're not that good in a group or raid. We can't have it all, eh? Even in the olden days necros were not all that in-demand for raids and, honestly, back when mana could actually be depleted, as a raid leader I used to see necros as mana batteries for our clerics.

This is the problem with "care bearing" the game so much that classes with formerly unique and in-demand abilities become prey to easy substitutes.

It happens to other classes, including druids, which has been my own main for years. I can still remember many years ago saving an entire raid by MGB'ing Spirit of the Wood, which back then could regen HPs for an entire raid force and potently enough that it was sufficient to offset the raid-wide dot damage we were suffering from whatever raid boss we were tackling. I don't think any single player/class has that kind of potential impact on a raid these days, or indeed for a long time.

Even "in the group game" I would think necros could hold their own against undead mobs. But I have to admit I haven't played one in a long time so I'm not sure. Personally I always enjoyed really random pick-up groups, not even necessarily strangers, but even friends of whatever classes happened to log in. I never waited for "The Holy Trinity" to log on but would form a group from whoever was available. I've had memorable groups with two warriors, two clerics, definitely two necros, plus whatever else happened to be online. Sure it's "nice" to have a tank, a healer and "some" form of crowd control, but that doesn't mean it has to be WAR+CLE+ENC by any means.

I used to play with an sk who never seemed to care about buffs. He didn't want to wait around for buffers to log in. Plus in those days buffs didn't last all that long so he figured he'd be losing any buffs soon, other than those from the players he was grouping with. Even then I can remember him dying, getting rezzed and running off immediately to pull as soon as I could cast SOW oh him. Same with the rogue we used to have pull on Vex Thal raids. That guy died so many times he didn't want buffs because it just slowed down the raid having to rebuff him every time he died.

Nowadays you target any player they must have 24 or more buff icons filling up the entire target window! Even just rezzed most players have at least 10 of the "always present" buffs. LOLOL. Boy how the game has changed....

I think these days there's too much emphasis on max efficiency. TBH I have stopped paying attention completely to long tedious threads about maximizing warrior aggro, wizard dps, cleric healing, etc. That transforms the game from fun to work lol.




Edited, Apr 22nd 2019 4:38pm by Sippin
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#12 May 27 2019 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
Late to the party but...
Sippin wrote:
I hate to say it but any class that solos as well as a necro does, it's kind of reasonable that they're not that good in a group or raid. We can't have it all, eh?


Sippin, you're a druid. Druids have had it all since March of 99. Even when your heals were devalued by content, you always had something to contribute to a group and raid. When sheeple were bleating about how much druids sucked, any cursory glance at an "uberguild" roster showed they were ALWAYS recruiting druids. Druids were the supermodels of EQ: even on your worst day, you're better off than 80% of the population. Many people didn't know this because many people don't know the class in and out. Most people wouldn't have thought to MGB Wood. They would've just tried to heal and cure as many people as they could. The versatility of the druid class has always been its strength.

But Necros have serious issues and they're issues that the current dev team is not equipped to fix. They can't remove the debuff cap (think of how deep in the code mob base attributes are), and nothing substantial could be done. Outside of introducing DoT focus items of consequence or a line of faster acting DoT spells, there's not a lot of low hanging fruit out there. And if it's not low hanging fruit, it's not going to be prioritized.
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#13 May 27 2019 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since I don't know the necro class at all well, I defer to your expertise here. It's unfortunate that they have such serious issues, as you say. But I contend that historically they've always been a class designed to solo very well, even summoning named mobs, and NOT to be that important to groups and raids. Just like druids have historically been considered a "jack of all trades" class that can do a lot of tasks decently but none superbly. While I've been a raider and grouped a lot in the day ultimately I'm a soloer/boxer and the druid has always appealed to me because of its soloing strengths. But I have been envious when I solo into some dungeon and run into a wall, either see-invis undead, or summoning nameds I can't handle, and there's a necro sneaking right by me and tackling the same named with his pet and his bag of tricks. I've had this experience many times, at least in the olden days,

Grass is always greener, eh? Smiley: eek




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