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If your going to be PL or buy heroic toon.......Follow

#1 Apr 05 2015 at 7:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Please know what you are doing. Nothing is more frustrating and waste of time someone who constantly dies or trains especially

power level your level 80 with level 20 gear. Give me a break, play the toon at least a month get familiar with it all I am asking. Oh

your a level 92 mage, can I team with you sure then find out they have no clue, they can't or won't keep a simple invis on die by

having

like 20 mobs kill them once is bad enough but over and over again is just stupid. Rez me please so my J1 merc can get owned, I

can sit get killed again, waste your time of raised again and I are you wasting my time so I can med. Repeat oh I don't have a

mount and I will pull so there is like three adds so your pet dies, your merc dies, and you almost die, oh I am tired of dying you pull I

will stand here like an idiot take your invis off that way if you get adds they can aggro on me so I can die again so we can do the

process over again. Why you mad bro, why you abandoning me to die again, I am a shaman I can't gate or do not know the area

all I wanted to do is the quest so I can get better gear. LOL end rant.

Edited, Apr 5th 2015 9:36am by cjguy
#2 Apr 05 2015 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel your pain sir Smiley: smile
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#3 Apr 05 2015 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah I feel your pain too. It's similar to the pain I feel trying to read your post.

My attitude on this is don't complain just boot the incompetent player from the group. Unless you want to do him the favor of helping him learn his class AND he's receptive and not a jerk about it.

The goal is always to grow this game and keep it healthy and personally I'd rather help someone acquire game skills than write posts about their inability to play. But that's just me.
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#4 Apr 05 2015 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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True that, but just venting is all.
#5 Apr 05 2015 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh well...

About month ago I was trying to guide a dude who was given a heroic shaman.

Our conversation was like this:
He: Hi! Would you pls tell me what spells I have to cast while grouping?
Me: It depends on situation - are you talking about buffs or are you in combat.
He: Ok. But what spells I have to cast?
Me: Have you checked what spells you have at your level?
He: No. I just got this char from a friend.
Me: Have you played a shaman earlier?
He: No. Just tell me what spells I have to cast.
Me: /giving him some keywords to check online guides for heroic shaman - spells, AAs, tactics etc I have readed myself/
He: Ok. I might check this. But just tell me now what I have to cast if I am asked to, so i can go grouping again?
Me: It's no help if you don't understand why you are casting a spell and what's it doing. I suggest you should read about it and get familiar with your spells first.
He: You might be right.
Me: Believe me it makes things much easier for you :)
He: Ok. One more thing - at what level I get a pet? I love pets so much :D
Me: You certainly have a pet at this level :) What class you played before?
He: I have a /lvl 60 something/ Druid.

/sigh/ Smiley: banghead
It's short version btw.

I really hope he did what I suggested. Have'nt seen him anymore...


#6 Apr 05 2015 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shaman is probably one of the worst classes to learn to play at 85.

Along with just about every other class except warrior!

LOL Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol
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#7 Apr 05 2015 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

The post just above this one is a J O K E.

We all know warrior is just as challenging a class to play right as any other.

That is all. Smiley: wink
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#8 Apr 05 2015 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
One of the biggest reasons why I hate grinding and/or powering my way to 105 is because I'd rather know what my class can or can't do. Nothing annoys me more when I see people being PL'd to high levels, and then them asking what they should be doing. *sigh* Granted, I'm not paying their $14.99 a month, but.. c'mon. Learn to play! :P
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#9 Apr 05 2015 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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What she said ^^^^
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#10 Apr 06 2015 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know how hard it is to learn to play a Heroic toon if you are not familiar with class at all.
I have upgraded to Heroic four toons. The reason is simple - I don't have as much playtime as I used to have old days.

With Shaman and SK it was easier - I have played both classes before till lvl 60-70. And even then I did lots of research to understand what all these new AAs and spells are for.

With Necro and Mage it was pain in the a... Smiley: rolleyes
My Necro was lvl 30 when I upgraded her (free Heroic Char), so I had at least general idea about this class. But let's be honest - I was feeling like stone age man holding an iPhone Smiley: grin
It took me time to search info online and reading all those guides about spells, AA's and stuff. But one thing made it easier - I discovered that Necro is kind of a mix of Shammy and SK if you look at spells. And kiting is fun Smiley: wink

Then I rolled a pocket Mage for pet tanking, DPS and CotH (Oh I love CotH!). So I did all this research again, but I am still using maybe half of Mages abilities - Mage is just supporting toon for my Necro and I know that I will never be as good as these people who's main is Mage. But I can handle stuff when needed.

Anyway, my point is getting a Heroic Char is'nt a crime, but god dammit, learn to play it! It's not a rocket science.

Edited, Apr 6th 2015 3:13am by Surimuri
#11 Apr 06 2015 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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d00d sow plz...it's for a cr to burned woods...
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#12 Apr 06 2015 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Where IS Burned Woods dese days?? I heard they moved it... again...
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#13 Apr 06 2015 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ha! I had an experience with an obvious Heroic toon a couple weeks ago. I guess I'm just too polite (when playing only, of course), so I tried to bear with it. I really did. But it was so hard. Basically, I saw someone asking for more for a group. I was playing my wiz and was the right range (and it was a HoT group, so I figured I might get a shot at some gear upgrades, maybe). Turned out, it was just one person, not an existing group. The one person was a bard with a healer merc. So I offered to pull out a tank merc and figured we'd do ok. And we actually did. Kinda. Except when she took 10-15 minute breaks regularly for various things (doing laundry I think). Not a big deal, but annoying. She didn't know how to pull, and didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned maybe setting herself to puller and the merc to tank and how that would help things (and avoid getting adds). And didn't know what I was talking about when I asked her to make me group leader so I could set things up properly. I tried to explain, but it was like pulling teeth to get her to respond (I say "her" because the character was female, I have no clue what sex the person playing her was, or age for that matter).

The kicker was when a couple of named mobs were up. I'd basically been pulling and killing stuff myself while she was off on one of her 20 minutes AFK fests. Which worked better than when she was pulling anyway. Just annoying because she was basically leeching. In any case, I didn't want to pull a named without both of us being actively played, so when she finally returned I pointed out the named mobs. She ran to one and pulled. No prep. No strategy. Just pulled. We were still able to beat it, but it was a tough fight. Then she proceeded to pull the second one (without waiting for her healer to med up, oh and it was quit obvious she hadn't done the J5 quest based on how fast her healer was burning through mana). We didn't do so well at all. Tank died, mob was beating on us, so I used exodus (instant evac to safe spot). When we reappeared, she was like "what happend!". Didn't have a clue what an evac was (which isn't super shocking). Right as I was attempting to explain what I'd done, and why, she ran off and reagroed the same named that was just handing us our lunch. Note, that the tank merc is still dead. I basically just hung back invis and waited for her to die (which she did, quite quickly since her healer was also pretty much zero mana at this point).

I waited long enough after that (cause I'm ridiculously nice to people like this for some reason) to make sure the mercs came back and she got rezzed, then made an excuse to leave (dinner time!). It was just a surreal experience because I've heard tons of horror stories about people like this , but hadn't run into one personally. Sure. The occasional clueless person, but they usually either solo or they get into a larger group and let someone else lead so their lack of skill is masked a bit. This player insisted on being leader and pulling and basically doing a ton of stuff, despite not knowing how to do any of those things. I suppose that's a way to learn, but she didn't seem to be learning.

It wasn't a total disaster, but it was kinda funny to watch. The whole charging after the named despite obviously being unable to defeat it was just icing on the cake.

Edited, Apr 6th 2015 3:48pm by gbaji
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#14 Apr 06 2015 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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The good thing is the game so easy to recover from "disaster" nowadays. In the olden days, grouping with an incompetent player could be really costly in terms of long corpse runs, multiple deaths, etc. That's why in those "golden days" a player who was really bad would develop a server-wide "rep" and basically had no hope of getting into a PU group unless he blundered onto a group that had not heard of him. The server forums in those days were very active, though, and the word got around quickly about bad players*. To make it even worse you had to petition for a name change and EQ maintained a page where they'd list before-and-after names for all name-changed players. So basically your rep would follow you to perdition and back! Your only hope was TO LEARN YOUR CLASS! Then maybe you could gradually lose a bad rep.

*It got so bad that some popular threads would be pursuant to a question like "Who is the Worst SK on the Server?" This could be really cruel.... reminds me of some of the bullying that could go on in high school. Since some people invest a lot of themselves in their on-line persona I'm sure some of the more nastier threads of this type could really damage a player's psyche.

Edited, Apr 6th 2015 7:36pm by Sippin
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#15 Apr 07 2015 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sippin wrote:
Where IS Burned Woods dese days?? I heard they moved it... again...


I have heard that they are going to rewamp it.
#16 Apr 07 2015 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rewamping it makes sense. The old wamp was just not cutting it anymore.
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#17 Apr 07 2015 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Unfortunately, I can't imagine that there's much way around this. You used to learn your class by grinding up through the levels, gaining new skills and spells as you advanced and having time to use them before gaining more. Now, the game below 80 is dead so a new player isn't going to learn their class organically as they level up unless their merc teaches them. Furthermore, the game is changed to make people move out of those levels as soon as possible (changes to xp, Defiant gear, Heroics, etc) so you don't spend weeks in each phase of the game learning about your own abilities much less how to interact with a group of like-leveled players. Instead you buy a Heroic or get power-leveled so you're dumped at level 85 with a hundred spells (90% of which are probably obsolete yet maybe some level 5 spell is still essential) or skills and another hundred-plus AA abilities and no knowledge about them. Or, at best, you soloed 95% of it and now... maybe know how to solo your class?

There's always been people who just play like they need their water tested whether they were PL'd or not but the current situation makes it near impossible for anyone to learn their class the old fashioned way. As Sippin said, the best you can do is try and teach them while you have them.

Edited, Apr 7th 2015 10:04am by Jophiel
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#18 Apr 07 2015 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh yes I know the feeling well..

Since my original clique of in game friends and real life EQ friends either quit, left my server, or play time dropped off. I tend to group more with new and returning players than any other demographic and have had these types of issues from time to time but more commonly since the F2P era began.

Recently, I let a "true" new player that was begging for a group in game (who just created a heroic Ranger character) into our group and even though he was not the puller or main tank he insisted on taking aggro off of the assigned puller while the mob(s) were still incoming to camp and continually had to be heavily healed because he just did not have a clue how to manage aggro and/or what discs, spells or abilities to use, while he decided to off tank trash that he could not deal with no matter what he was told.. In effect, making our Cleric (a real one - not boxed) have to work harder and divert attention away from the real tank in our group.

After half an hour of this, we told the guy he is not playing his role correctly for the group( that he had begged to join). Needless to say, he took it the wrong way and started to whine and blame everyone else but himself.. After 5 minutes of arguments, I ended it abruptly by removing him from the group and we left the zone.


I myself, created three free Heroic characters upon release of heroics as they were free to existing gold/all access accounts... A Ranger and an Enchanter which have not been grouped with real players yet for the same reason...I feel I have too much to learn still to avoid embarrassing myself and getting others killed.. Only my heroic Shammy (my third Shaman) has had playtime in groups with real players as I know that class well.

In closing one caveat:
Despite the drawbacks, don't be discouraged from helping new and returning players. Nowadays, some of my most reliable friends in game, are players that I had helped when they returned a few years ago and most never forget that. Even the few that had out leveled me or a couple that now raid..

They never forget when you help them, especially at that crucial time when they need info and help to get their feet wet again... and always offer me any help in game...

Heroic characters are a double edged sword imho. While I am glad for it, it does create a skill problem for those who want to go to max level without learning the fundamentals of their class...which requires experience and time...there is no short cut for that..
#19 Apr 07 2015 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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hexeez wrote:
I myself, created three free Heroic characters upon release of heroics as they were free to existing gold/all access accounts... A Ranger and an Enchanter which have not been grouped with real players yet for the same reason...I feel I have too much to learn still to avoid embarrassing myself and getting others killed.. Only my heroic Shammy (my third Shaman) has had playtime in groups with real players as I know that class well.


Totally agree with this. I posted in an earlier thread about Heroic characters the utter confusion I experienced trying out a solo Berserker. I'm going to guess that's probably one of the easier classes to pick up. And at least the basics weren't a problem (I can click auto attack and mash some combat abilities when they come up like the best of them!). Didn't help that the more powerful combat abilities of that class require some kind of disposable axes you have to buy somewhere, and they aren't sold at the merchant nearby that sells all the general and class used items (kinda scratching my head over that one really). In any case, I kinda felt like Khan looking at the panels full of switches and dials and buttons (flashing and beeping even!) trying to figure out which one will get the shields back up. Just soooooo many abilities, and no clue what they do.
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#20 Apr 07 2015 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Didn't help that the more powerful combat abilities of that class require some kind of disposable axes you have to buy somewhere, and they aren't sold at the merchant nearby that sells all the general and class used items (kinda scratching my head over that one really).
I thought the "special" zerker axes were summoned by the zerker?Smiley: confused Not 100% on that as I've ever run an berserker.

gbaji wrote:
In any case, I kinda felt like Khan looking at the panels full of switches and dials and buttons (flashing and beeping even!) trying to figure out which one will get the shields back up. Just soooooo many abilities, and no clue what they do.
Smiley: laughSmiley: lolSmiley: laughRate ups 4j00!!
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#21 Apr 07 2015 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Great thread. My take:

-real newbs still exist, and they may have high level powerful characters.
-If I were to make heroics of certain classes I would have a minor scent to reek of newbishness depending on what I rolled vs. my EQ past.
-fools still play the game too. Don't hate the newbs because of the occasional fool.

-Devs have really lost sight of a few things over the 16 years. Some of these oversights make huge barriers for new players or long-lost returning players. Heroic characters, the AAxp curve and autogrant, defiant gear that makes nearly every item in those level ranges junk all help (sort of depending on your viewpoint) with the "catching up/levelling effectively" issue.

What they have missed is pruning. Other games have done it. One game recently removed a massive amount of the crowd control abilities in the game (ability bloat was making it unspecial.... and that game has pvp so it was getting lame in that respect too). I'll be brief with one example:

combat abilities = a clunky system that really clutters up as you level. An 85 heroic has a silly # of abilities. None of these abilities was in the game when 1-65 content was designed. Maybe... some of the 70+ content was tuned for some of them. So pick 3-5 key abilities per class and relevel them 70-80-90-95-100 or whatever. Cull the fluff/overlap (which may mean combining some things into one better ability).

*spell lines, gear stats, AA and so on could all be pruned.

#22 Apr 07 2015 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Totally agree with this. I posted in an earlier thread about Heroic characters the utter confusion I experienced trying out a solo Berserker.


Yep, and for me especially if asked to play the CC role as an Enchanter...I'm bound to get people killed if lost, like I am re the class atm lol.

gbaji wrote:
Didn't help that the more powerful combat abilities of that class require some kind of disposable axes you have to buy somewhere, and they aren't sold at the merchant nearby that sells all the general and class used items (kinda scratching my head over that one really).


There are a few different "axe components" you need to buy for your ability to summon and throw a range of axes via discs and AA abilities. They are a must for a Berserker to use its abilities and maximize melee dps and are available in the library in POK for all level ranges. I usually buy around 200 at a time and that lasts me about as long as 1 1/2 translucent power sources on the same character iirc. Edit: Link to NPC (he's in the "find" window) : https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=19828

I have a Berserker at lvl 90 but he has fallen behind my main crew as when I used to three box him with my SK and Shaman in group, it was too much clicking re the Berserker having to throw various axes and other hot keyed melee abilities with short recast times (necessary to maximize its dps) to click during each fight - esp with the SK pulling and tanking. Then, having to position a second melee for each mob/encounter.. It was really hard on my fingers.. clicking so much.. But he puts out good numbers melee DPS wise.

They have numerous melee-dps enhancing burn discs and AA,s to increase dps for short durations and with the best 2h weapon you can get, they can put out nice melee numbers when using their burn abilities or a combination of them. Plenty clicking though...



Edited, Apr 7th 2015 10:40pm by hexeez
#23 Apr 08 2015 at 5:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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The game could definitely use some pruning. Like a few years ago when they stripped out all the different names for the different levels of an AA ability and combined them into one long sequence, all with the same name. That was a smart move. They could do this with other abilities, spells, disciplines, etc.

I think they resist doing much of this because the game is so old, has been tinkered with by so many different devs, many of which may no longer even be around, that they're always afraid of breaking something unintentionally, leading to the oft-maligned "patch to fix the patch." I've been coding for years and I have programs I started over 20 years ago and I'm always nervous about making changes to those because sometimes even I can't remember why I did some things in that program. Which makes me worry that tinkering on Line 56,453 could cause bugs to appear in Line 151,113! A non-digital analogy involves old homes where even expert tradesmen are loathe to do work on old plumbing and electrical systems because they always worry a minor repair will cause an unexpected major failure in another area and then you have an irate homeowner and maybe legal and financial liability.

I'm always troubled when players ask simple questions in general chat---simple meaning they can be easily answered by visiting this site or other readily accessible EQ sites. I know some people are lazy or just want a quick answer. But the devs should be concerned that the game is so lacking in in-game help and documentation that people have to do that.
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#24 Apr 08 2015 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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hexeez wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Didn't help that the more powerful combat abilities of that class require some kind of disposable axes you have to buy somewhere, and they aren't sold at the merchant nearby that sells all the general and class used items (kinda scratching my head over that one really).


There are a few different "axe components" you need to buy for your ability to summon and throw a range of axes via discs and AA abilities. They are a must for a Berserker to use its abilities and maximize melee dps and are available in the library in POK for all level ranges. I usually buy around 200 at a time and that lasts me about as long as 1 1/2 translucent power sources on the same character iirc. Edit: Link to NPC (he's in the "find" window) : https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=19828


Yeah. I figured that out (but basically had to look stuff up online to do so, which means an actual new player trying this out would never have a chance to figure out how get those abilities to work). The annoying thing is that there's a merchant right in the area where heroic characters start and where all their quests are, who sells a pretty complete set of general stuff you'd need, plus class specific stuff for summonings and whatnot. So gems, coffins, bone chips, etc. But that merchant does not sell the axe components. Which I found kinda odd.
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#25 Apr 08 2015 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bummer. In the old start cities, there was a Ber merchant near the Ber GM. Seems like they used to have some dialog about how to make the starter axes too either on the merchant or GM. Can't remember, it's been so many many years ago now. And I ignore NPC dialog for the most part any more :P

Yther Ore.
#26 Apr 08 2015 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah. When you attempt to use some of the abilities, you get a red text message that says something about missing a component. The ability description will tell you what component is needed. So I wandered around looking for where I could buy it. The obvious choice was the merchant with all the other stuff needed for various class abilities and pet summoning. No dice. Wandered around POK for awhile as well. Assumed it might be sold in the barb guild master area (seems like it would be an obvious location). No dice. As mentioned above, you have to think to go to the tome merchant in the library. Not the location you'd normally think of for axe components. I mean, it makes sense in a way, given that you'll presumably run to that merchant to get new abilities along the way and notice that there are axe components there. But for someone "new" thinking "where would axe components be", that's not where you'd think to look.

And again, why it's missing from the merchant that quite obvious was placed there specifically to provide components for class abilities for heroic characters being played by folks who might not know where to find them normally is just plain strange. It wasn't a huge deal for me, but I know where to look for game information. A truly new player would just be lost.
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