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#27 Sep 13 2004 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey! No peridots means no clerics claiming every gem that drops "for dot costs" meaning more plat for you! Always a silver lining!


Very good point. My bard's name starts with a Z, and it seems like everytime I get in a BoT group, it's "alha on gems, cleric first then start at A". I very rarely get anything, since I'm busy pulling I don't loot the trash and BoT groups tend to not last longer then 40 mins for some strange reason. Not a big deal really, but this'll give me more of a chance since the clerics won't be double dipping anymore.
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#28 Sep 13 2004 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Most of the levitating and enduring breath spells have an early 50s upgrade that allows for casting without reagents.

I think the move away from dots is good. The mana cost is huge for casting those as well

KEI is a GROUP buff costing 900 mana

Temp is single target spell costing 550 mana or the blessing variety, which is group version of the same, for 1650 mana

Aegolism single target is 750, group version 2000 mana

Virtue single is 1000, group is 2500

Holy cow the mana consumption is far greater than what it costs the chanter yet so many will pay the chanter more while the cleric has to use a peridot for each person or a couple for the group version of the spell. I personally see this change as good and fair.
#29 Sep 13 2004 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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And more to the point, clerics will no longer be penalized after every ldon split. In my 110 times, my 65 cleric has received additional compensation 5 times for dots. Speak up you say? But then I'd just be a "greedy cleric".


And just think all your pets will now be tougher also.
#30 Sep 13 2004 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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While I agree for the most part that clerics needed compensation for dot costs, and not all clerics were greedy pp whores (just like not all bards are training AE-azzes), there were those that definately used it to their advantage. HoV uses 2 dots to cast, correct? So you're buffing 5 people ("Min 12pp to cover cost of dots!" = at least 60pp) at a cost of 2 dots (about 20pp, because I know you're cha doesn't suck that bad). So, at the worst, you're making 40pp per cast. That's all in the past now though. In theory, this change should make certain buff trades reasonable, like a necro twitching the cleric several times, but I have a feeling the clerics that are there for the pp aren't going to give up their profit gaining ventures that easily.
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#31 Sep 13 2004 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Keep in mind that Aego and Virtue uses 2 'dots per cast, HoV 4. So that thoughtful 64 cleric who casts single virtue on the whole group has spent 120pp, minimum.

I like this change, when I am playing EQ regularly I routinely spend 1200pp or more a week on 'dots alone. Any way you look at it, that is a lot of money to spend on a spell that is expected and required for group play.
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#32 Sep 13 2004 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Keep in mind that Aego and Virtue uses 2 'dots per cast, HoV 4. So that thoughtful 64 cleric who casts single virtue on the whole group has spent 120pp, minimum.


Ok, so I stand corrected, but there are those out there that took advantage of the reduction in component cost for the group version. Maybe they felt they were making up for having to cast stuff on groups all the time, but if that's the case, more of them should of deferred the tendency of groups to give gems to clerics like they're candy. Like I said before though, they were probably the exception more often then the rule.
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#33 Sep 13 2004 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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HoV takes 2 dots, not 4. It also takes 2500 mana to cast as compared to 900 mana for KEI with no dots. Hmmm I never ever hear anyone complain about the "chanter whores" (not my opinion, btw) who make thousands in plat casting KEI in PoK. But let a cleric ask for donation for Virtue and all hell breaks loose. Frankly, I never cast Virtue for donation -- I couldn't be bothered, but that doesn't prevent people from begging me for it and insulting me when I am busy and don't have time to drop everything to buff them. Here is a newsflash for some of you -- clerics are not your personal buff slaves, so 1) don't bug people who aren't advertising they are selling Virtue and 2) either pay or go without -- whether it costs the cleric a dot or not. After all it is a service they are providing to you, not something you are entitled to receive. If you want it so bad for free, make an alt and buff yourself.
#34 Sep 13 2004 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Now if the star ruby requirement would be dropped for casting banishment, some people might actually cast it once in awhile. It would also be handy to drop the pearl requirement for call of the hero. Although blowing 300pp or so to coh a raid down somewhere isn't the worst part, having bag space eaten up with pearls is annoying....especially for a trade skiller.
#35 Sep 13 2004 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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What I'm curious about with this is whether they're just removing the dot cost on those three spells (plus whatever else is in that line in OOW), or whether it applies to the whole "symbol" line of spells.

What you have to remember is that the temp/aego/virt line of spells isn't really a separate line. It's three lines of cleric spells in one buff. Clerics start out with three primary buff lines. A "courage" line, a "shield" line, and a "symbol" line. The courage line buffs HPs and a small amount of AC. The shield line buffs a larger amount of AC, and the symbol line buffs a large amount of HP but costs a component.

The whole point and advantage of the aego line is that it combines all three in one. You get to save 2 buff slots. You get to save the extra time casting spells. You get to save mana overall (less mana then casting the three equivalent spells). The component cost comes from the fact that you get a symbol in the spell. If you remove that cost from just the aego line, then what does that do to the relative balance/cost for plain symbols?

The line only seems really expensive because you're comparing it to single line spells from other classes. When you look at spells like Fo7 and Po9 and KEI, you see that they do have aspects of multiple earlier spell lines in them, but since none of those had a component cost the result doesn't either. I'm not sure if it will help balance if you remove the component cost on the aego line but keep it on the normal symbols.


I think part of this is player expectation of buffs as well. It used to be that people expected to get a courage line and an armor line buff from the cleric. If they were tanking something really tough and the HPs were needed, the cleric would then hit the tank(s) and only the tank(s) with a symbol. Today, we just expect them to hit us with virt and be done with it, meaning that we end up with a heck of a lot of dots being spent by clerics. On many occasions, I've seen threads here where clerics complain about the dot cost and how casters and others insist on them buffing them but not paying for the dot. It's always amazed me how often those same clerics don't even consider just hitting them with the single shot spells of the courage and shield lines, giving them buffs, but not costing the component.


IMO, the real problem is that those lines dont really extend past like 50th level. I think that HB is the highest level courage line buff available (don't quote me on that though, I don't play a cleric). There is a higher level shield buff, but most clerics seem to forget that it exists (I have *never* recieved this when a raid takes the po9/symbol mgb route without me asking for it specifically).

I think if they just extended the courage line so that clerics would have a viable alternative HP buff that didn't cost them a dot to cast, things would work out just fine. Drop the high end courage buff on casters that are whining about needing a buff, but shouldn't be getting hit anyway, and save the dots for giving the extra hps on your tanks where it's needed.


Just a thought.
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#36 Sep 13 2004 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Or just remove the 'dot reagent from the Temp/Virtue spells and everyone can stay with the status quo but the clerics aren't breaking the bank Smiley: wink2
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#37 Sep 14 2004 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I think part of this is player expectation of buffs as well. It used to be that people expected to get a courage line and an armor line buff from the cleric. If they were tanking something really tough and the HPs were needed, the cleric would then hit the tank(s) and only the tank(s) with a symbol. Today, we just expect them to hit us with virt and be done with it, meaning that we end up with a heck of a lot of dots being spent by clerics. On many occasions, I've seen threads here where clerics complain about the dot cost and how casters and others insist on them buffing them but not paying for the dot. It's always amazed me how often those same clerics don't even consider just hitting them with the single shot spells of the courage and shield lines, giving them buffs, but not costing the component.


True, yes and no.

From what I see, the norm now is that everyone expects at least a symbol.

The norm for just about everyone except the Pallies and a few die hard warriors (bless their little hearts) is to expect PoT9 + Kazard.

Which really does add up to quite a few PP out of the Clerics pocket. Especially if there are a few rez/rebuffs required.
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#38 Sep 14 2004 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Madahme the Tulip wrote:
Now if the star ruby requirement would be dropped for casting banishment, some people might actually cast it once in awhile. It would also be handy to drop the pearl requirement for call of the hero. Although blowing 300pp or so to coh a raid down somewhere isn't the worst part, having bag space eaten up with pearls is annoying....especially for a trade skiller.


If it was unresistable I would be happy to pay the cost of the star ruby. The thing that makes it so stupid is the unreasonably high resist rate combined with the reagent cost.
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#39 Sep 14 2004 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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My guild clerics report:

Quote:
All (cleric) buffs have dots removed from aego and symbol line (not sure about temp however).
(he is Russian, so bear along)

And

Quote:
The first changes on lucy just removed the cost from single target virtue line. The next update removed them from the group spells too.


Didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this is double info. :)
#40 Sep 14 2004 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Hehe, all the posts saying clerics are greedy make me laugh.

There are a lot of clerics who advertise Temp and Virtue for the cost of a peridot. This is giving the buff away free. How many other classes do you see casting their buffs for nothing. The odd, kind individual does but it is far from the norm.

Personally, I don't sell my buffs or buff for free. In my opinion, if you want the buffs a certain class supllies then you should group with that class (but that's a whole different argument).
#41 Sep 14 2004 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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- Clerics Symbol and Aegolism spell lines no longer require reagents.
- Necromancer pets will no longer require peridots.


Looks like clerics and necros both got a reagent reduction. Gratz to you all.
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#42 Sep 14 2004 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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he is Russian, so bear along
Tee hee!
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